Setapp Will Be One of iPhone's First Alternative App Marketplaces in EU

[Samplasion]

B) The cookies thing is a perfect example of stupid politicians who have no real insight doing something stupid. Those pop-ups achieve exactly the opposite of the intended effect.

As I said earlier, that's no fault of the EU; rather, blame the corporations that seek to make the entire process so complicated that users will just:

simply click "accept" and move on

 

[Timo_Existencia]

As I said earlier, that's no fault of the EU; rather, blame the corporations that seek to make the entire process so complicated that users will just:

But that IS the problem with the legislation. It was feel-good emptiness that didn't accomplish anything, and actually made things worse.

The point is, as I said above, I trust Apple to provide a solution to this problem more than I trust the EU.

You can't sidestep the results of the EU and blame it on corporations. The corporations already existed, were already doing their thing, and the EU stepped in and made it worse, not better.

 

[josselinco]

You are part of the problem and the reason, why so many apps are subscription based… instead of paying 2-5€ per month I would rather pay 10-20€ once and that’s it.


No, he does not. Neither do I, the EU or anyone else. ‚forcing‘ Apple to open up is more like adding a Gate, you’re either free to use or not. If you don’t want sideload, alternative app stores and so on it’s fine but why do you want anyone living as you? @jasonsmith_88 is absolutely right with his argument.

Part of the problem ?

You think small software companies like MacPaw make that much money they can keep up with 10€ once every 15 years ? We're not talking about Adobe here...

I close subscriptions immediately when I don't need them, but here it's more about supporting the Mac software industry. I'm glad they do what they do, I'll gladly contribute 10 bucks.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Many of you seem to like those "get 30 apps for $10" schemes. I used to try them. But found most of those apps pointless and gimmicky, along with questionable as for safety and security. And you actually like "Clean My Mac?" I think it is aggressively marketed to low-information users. That many of you are cheering this nonsense company for bringing their package of silly little apps to you through a subscription model makes me chuckle.

 

[one more]

1) Do I think the sky will fall on March 6th due to these EU-only app stores? No. But that's not the point.
2) Do I think EU users will be flooded with malware on March 6th? No. But that's not the point.
3) Do I think Non-EU users are going to suffer from this change on March 6th? No. But that's not the point.

Here's MY point: Who should make these decisions? Government Agencies or a Free & Fair Marketplace? Apple or the EU?

A) I think the EU deciding on USB C was really silly. Apple was already in the process of transitioning. And I don't agree with any of the "look at all the money we'll now save by not buying multiple cables." Forcing people who already owned lightning cables and adapters to change forced them to buy new cables. Change in such things is inevitable in technology, and I trust Apple to watch out for my interests more than I trust the EU.

B) The cookies thing is a perfect example of stupid politicians who have no real insight doing something stupid. Those pop-ups achieve exactly the opposite of the intended effect. Now, because nobody can take the time to read the fine print on every web site, we simply click "accept" and move on. But the result of this is that those web sites can put whatever they want and we've "agreed" to it without actually knowing what we've agreed to. The EU simply forces me to give tacit approval now to whatever that web site is doing. They haven't solved any problems. I trust Apple to provide better solutions on this front than I trust the EU, who has proven in this instance how idiotic politicans can be (and I worked in politics and government for more than 20 years).

C) The EU is motivated to reduce security on the iPhone to enhance its ever-increasing surveillance of everyday citizens. They are NOT motivated to increase security. And even if they were, as the above mentioned cookies debacle shows, Government is frequently ham-handed in its attempts to do anything better left to the market and technology companies.

D) I don't think the EU cares about metrics at all with this new legislation. They won't measure any outcomes. This was not about consumer protection at all. This is naked protectionism for EU business interests and government interests, pure and simple. Sold to EU citizens as consumer protection. Whether prices are lowered or not, whether security is increased or not, whether consumers are better off or not will not be calculated, and will have no sunsetting affect on this legislation. As many of you have noted, the hoped-for changes are not generally found in the Android world.

E) The IOS market IS different than the Android Market. It is a much more valuable market because it has a more valuable customer base. This will, in my estimation, make it much more likely for big 3rd parties like Amazon, Netflix, Spotify, etc. to do everything they can to access and sell to Apple's curated customer list without providing any compensation back to Apple. This will have the affect of splitting the IOS market into segments, and will usher in a cat-and-mouse game between Apple and the big players. Who care much less about customer experience than they do getting free access to a resource they didn't build.

F) This will not stop here. The EU obviously has much deeper plans. Cookies, USB C, Alternate App Stores are just the appetizer. What these actions are doing is taking these decisions away from consumers and business, and inserting government into what is best left to consumer choice and markets.

G) In a world of increasing surveillance and privacy concerns, I have purposely chosen to centralize my computing on Apple devices. I chose this walled garden. Again, do I think the sky will fall in immediately? No, and to characterize mine and others' concerns in this manner is disingenuous. The concern here is that the EU is trying to crack open a system that I and many (most?) Apple users have chosen specifically because it is closed. Do I think security will immediately suffer? No. But I take a long-term view on these issues, and I've decided a closed system is better for me and my family than is an open system.

H) Apple is not a monopoly, and to keep arguing that it is employing "anti-competitive behavior" in a context in which they only have about 27% marketshare in the EU is to radically misrepresent the ideas of anti-competitive behavior. "Gatekeeper" is an invented term to get around the long-held notions of monopoly in order to specifically target non-EU technology companies.

I) IOS and MacOS have fundamental differences. And, Apple, in my estimation, is moving away, rapidly, from the MacOS model toward the IOS model. You may not like that. You may hate it. But I DO like it. I have chosen it. Saying "IOS will only be just like Mac OS, so what's the problem?" is a disingenous argument. It doesn't recognize the reasons for the development of IOS as it has been developed. But again, even if you hate it, I don't. And many others have chosen IOS for these reasons.

J) You actually CAN choose Android if a more open system is your preference. This "I'm locked into Apple forever and ever and can't get out!" argument is silly.

K) Good luck relying on the EU to decide all of these issues for you. I don't trust the EU to have my best interests at heart. Best of luck to you if you do.

I am not idealising the EU intensions either, but just some observations from my end user’s point of view:

A) Without an EU push, Apple would drag-on with their transitioning for as long as possible, milking their proprietary connection.

G) So did I, strictly Apple devices. But I would still like a choice of installing a third party app that I can easily install on my Mac on my iDevices.

I) Apple would indeed love to move away from a more open macOS to a more closed “walled garden” of iOS, iPadOS. But then again, it is not that implementing current changes in iOS 17.4 will suddenly open a black hole of computing monsters. Apps will remain sandboxed and PWAs will be disabled in the EU. So as far as I am concerned, Apple still have our EU backs covered. Or am I missing something?

 

[Timo_Existencia]

A) Without an EU push, Apple would drag-on with their transitioning for as long as possible, milking their proprietary connection.

I simply don't think Apple was dragging their feet in order to milk the proprietary connection. But either way, again, having Governments decide on what are at core technical (combined with business) issues is a terrible idea. Name any standard of the past in computing and tell me which one you wish the EU had mandated to be THE standard for all time?

G) So did I, strictly Apple devices. But I would still like a choice of installing a third party app that I can easily install on my Mac on my iDevices.

And if enough people valued that and Apple were able to safely and securly implement it, then I'd leave that to Apple. What I don't want is for the EU and its fans here to think that the EU is in a better position to make those decisions for me than I am.

I) Apple would indeed love to move away from a more open macOS to a more closed “walled garden” of iOS, iPadOS. But then again, it is not that implementing current changes in iOS 17.4 will suddenly open a black hole of computing monsters. Apps will remain sandboxed and PWAs will be disabled in the EU. So as far as I am concerned, Apple still have our EU backs covered. Or am I missing something?

See the preface of my post, where I say specifically I don't think the sky will fall in on March 6th, but that is not the point.

 

[one more]

I simply don't think Apple was dragging their feet in order to milk the proprietary connection. But either way, again, having Governments decide on what are at core technical (combined with business) issues is a terrible idea. Name any standard of the past in computing and tell me which one you wish the EU had mandated to be THE standard for all time?


And if enough people valued that and Apple were able to safely and securly implement it, then I'd leave that to Apple. What I don't want is for the EU and its fans here to think that the EU is in a better position to make those decisions for me than I am.



See the preface of my post, where I say specifically I don't think the sky will fall in on March 6th, but that is not the point.

So, basically, we agree that had Apple taken more initiative themselves, we would not need the EU interference at all. The problem was that Apple did not, as they probably felt pretty comfortable, which gave the EU a valid reason to interfere.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

So, basically, we agree that had Apple taken more initiative themselves, we would not need the EU interference at all.

No, we don't agree on that. I trust the motives that Apple had more than I trust the EU's ability to dictate standards. Why everyone thinks USB C is the end-all of great standards is beyond me. I like USB C, but it's not perfect, and again, I see no evidence that Governments are better at making these decisions than are tech companies.

 

[I7guy]

So, basically, we agree that had Apple taken more initiative themselves, we would not need the EU interference at all.

What we agree on is the EU shouldn’t be the business of regulating tech standards.

 

[one more]

No, we don't agree on that. I trust the motives that Apple had more than I trust the EU's ability to dictate standards. Why everyone thinks USB C is the end-all of great standards is beyond me. I like USB C, but it's not perfect, and again, I see no evidence that Governments are better at making these decisions than are tech companies.

USB-C is just a good common current plug, not “the end-all of great standards”. As with most things in tech, it will evolve and at some point get replaced with something better. I think it is good to only need one USB-C cable to charge your iPhone, iPad and peripherals, though.

 

[one more]

What we agree on is the EU shouldn’t be the business of regulating tech standards.

Then the companies need to be more on the ball, proactively adapting, instead of waiting to be pushed by the entities outside of the tech business.

 

[Adysubman]

It's not practical to mix and match hardware features of a car, but the limitation on what software you can use on a mobile platform is arbitrary. Apple uses their strength in some areas to compel the use of their products or services in other areas. "All or nothing" is not much of a choice.

You’re right it’s not practical for car hardware but if I have a Mercedes and I want the BMW iDrive software will the EU force Mercedes to allow me to have another cars infotainment system? Of course not.

Very keen to understand how this impacts your phone warranty, if you side load an app from another store and it bricks your device, will Apple carry out a warranty repair?

 

[I7guy]

Then the companies need to be more on the ball, proactively adapting, instead of waiting to be pushed by the entities outside of the tech business.

Nope, 100% government should not be in that business. But the EU decided to take it on and my view is that innovation will be everywhere but the EU.

 

[NagasakiGG]

And to push that right back at you with your own argument.

I deliberately bought iPhone as it is a Walled Garden.

And you are taking that away from me by pandering to people that bought a walled garden phone then complain that it is a walled garden

Your rights just infringed on mine to have a walled garden. So by your own argument your right ended as you just infringed on mine.

What right do you have to take away my walled garden.

By having the walled garden I didn't take away your ability to buy a phone that you can do what you want with as you could have simply bought one of those widely available phones running on other platforms other then iOS.

However by forcing Apple to open up then you take away my Walled Garden environment as cannot go buy a walled garden smartphone from another platform/vendor can I. You however can easily buy an Android Phone that has all the openess that you want.

This is why people push back against it.

When it boils down to is people pushing against opening up bought a walled garden system knowing it is a walled garden and liked that it is a walled garden. They bought it BECAUSE it is a walled garden

People arguing for opening up bought a walled garden system and are then complaining that it is a walled garden, when they should have bought a different product that is not part of a walled garden.

Reminds me of Sachsgate with Russell Brand.

Andy Parsons did a great joke about it ridculing how dumb people can be.

Of the people that complained about the broadcast then very few actually heard the broadcast live The vast majority of complaints were from people that had heard about the broadcast, heard that was offensive, went to iPlayer where before clicked on the broadcast to listen were again told that they may find it offensive, and then listened to the replay and then complained to the BBC that they had been offended by the broadcast after deliberately choosing to go listen to something that they had been told would offend them.

The issue I have personally is that people that bought iPhones and complain about it not being open bought the wrong product and refuse to admit that they bought the wrong product and should have bought a phone that doesn't use iOS.

If you want alternative App Stores, Sideloading, alternative payment etc then how on earth was an Apple iPhone with its walled garden ecosystem the right product to buy when it has none of those things.

Part of the problem ?

You think small software companies like MacPaw make that much money they can keep up with 10€ once every 15 years ? We're not talking about Adobe here...

I close subscriptions immediately when I don't need them, but here it's more about supporting the Mac software industry. I'm glad they do what they do, I'll gladly contribute 10 bucks.

I agree at the fact with small companies, but I disagree regarding adobe. They’re one of the worst companies on the planet. Not only that students are forced to pay, but as a Swiss I am forced to pay roughly 80$ per month if I want to use their services, while people in Turkey only pay 20$ per year. In fact, I purchased my subscription when Lebanon Pound crashed back in July and got yearly subscription for roughly 3$.

Also, Parallels is also a **** company which forces users to either buy the program every year by making it incompatible on purpose with never software, even if there’s no reason to, or to get their subscription fee. That just sucks

 

[cocky jeremy]

I don't get it. Is this supposed to be a smashing success or a terrible failure?

I'm not talking about this app. I'm talking about the App Store. (The only real one)

 

[Timo_Existencia]

USB-C is just a good common current plug, not “the end-all of great standards”. As with most things in tech, it will evolve and at some point get replaced with something better. I think it is good to only need one USB-C cable to charge your iPhone, iPad and peripherals, though.

And who is going to be spending money on developing that next better standard if Government and all its red tape are going to make it extremely difficult to implement? Tech only evolves where there is incentive to evolve it. The EU has killed incentive to improve over USB C.

 

[Apollo68]

I never said an operating system is free of storage requirements. Same for the App Store. You are trying to invalidate my point by using words I NEVER used!!!

And even if I would count those, adding additional stores ALSO requires additional storage.

If adding additional stores would have been nothing but adding additional package sources, I'd be okay with it. A package source should only take around 10-100KB. But an App Marketplace would require new binaries, new graphics, text, and other data. (Cache files, etc) Which would easily go from 100-200MB to a few GB. Even on a phone.

I dont need to quote you to invalidate your argument. The implication is clear enough. And look at the original post I was replying to. My statement was in response to some silly argument about fees. Where you came up with storage requirements, the world wonders.

 

[Apollo68]

1. never said a trend under the pretense of companies going against App Store rules
2. if one company was willing to break the rules for the cut, then there clearly is an incentive when the rules are changed to allow it.

Look to Android regarding apps and alternatives marketplaces. The incentive to maximize profits is generally also tempered by the incentive to maximize the ability to reach an audience.

 

[one more]

And who is going to be spending money on developing that next better standard if Government and all its red tape are going to make it extremely difficult to implement? Tech only evolves where there is incentive to evolve it. The EU has killed incentive to improve over USB C.

Come on, just look at the heavily regulated automotive industry and its continuous evolution. The tech evolution is driven by the market (the economy) and not by the government (the politics).

 

[haemolysis]

I hope someday my country can piggy back off the eu regulation and enforce it here too. We wouldn’t have the power to enact a DMA all by ourselves, but with one already existing it wouldn’t be as hard for us to effectively just say “me too!” and bring it here.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Come on, just look at the heavily regulated automotive industry and its continuous evolution. The tech evolution is driven by the market (the economy) and not by the government (the politics).

If the EU had incentivized development of newer, better standards, then we'd get innovation. But what the EU has done is to put a locked door around evolving data transfer protocols.

You're right that the market evolves tech, not government. And that statement should lead you to reverse your earlier praises of the actions taken by the EU.

 

[Apollo68]

Give the EU pricks a week or two. They'll try shutting it down next. Too much success is not allowed.

uh-huh. The EU doesn't allow success. Right... Tell that to Mercedes, Heckler & Koch, Airbus, Bosch, etc., etc.

 

[Abazigal]

Waiting for an App Store to open that looks legit but is actually a front for a covert operation.

You basically just described Facebook.

'Do right by your users': Sun Xueling criticises Meta for not doing enough to fight Facebook scams

Meta has "consistently pushed back" against Singapore's recommendations for safeguards such as verifying users against government-issued IDs, says Minister of State for Home Affairs Sun Xueling.

www.channelnewsasia.com

A total of 9,783 e-commerce scams were reported in Singapore last year, more than double the 4,762 cases the year before, with victims losing a combined S$13.9 million (US$10.3 million). Close to half of the scams were on Facebook, said Ms Sun.

These are the companies who want full, unfettered access to your devices.

 

[breenmask]

Look to Android regarding apps and alternatives marketplaces. The incentive to maximize profits is generally also tempered by the incentive to maximize the ability to reach an audience.

Even though Android has a much larger user base, iOS brings in more app dollars. People spend more on iOS, so it never made sense to focus on just converting Android users to a third party system.

 

[Beautyspin]

1) Do I think the sky will fall on March 6th due to these EU-only app stores? No. But that's not the point.
2) Do I think EU users will be flooded with malware on March 6th? No. But that's not the point.
3) Do I think Non-EU users are going to suffer from this change on March 6th? No. But that's not the point.

Here's MY point: Who should make these decisions? Government Agencies or a Free & Fair Marketplace? Apple or the EU?

A) I think the EU deciding on USB C was really silly. Apple was already in the process of transitioning. And I don't agree with any of the "look at all the money we'll now save by not buying multiple cables." Forcing people who already owned lightning cables and adapters to change forced them to buy new cables. Change in such things is inevitable in technology, and I trust Apple to watch out for my interests more than I trust the EU.

B) The cookies thing is a perfect example of stupid politicians who have no real insight doing something stupid. Those pop-ups achieve exactly the opposite of the intended effect. Now, because nobody can take the time to read the fine print on every web site, we simply click "accept" and move on. But the result of this is that those web sites can put whatever they want and we've "agreed" to it without actually knowing what we've agreed to. The EU simply forces me to give tacit approval now to whatever that web site is doing. They haven't solved any problems. I trust Apple to provide better solutions on this front than I trust the EU, who has proven in this instance how idiotic politicans can be (and I worked in politics and government for more than 20 years).

C) The EU is motivated to reduce security on the iPhone to enhance its ever-increasing surveillance of everyday citizens. They are NOT motivated to increase security. And even if they were, as the above mentioned cookies debacle shows, Government is frequently ham-handed in its attempts to do anything better left to the market and technology companies.

D) I don't think the EU cares about metrics at all with this new legislation. They won't measure any outcomes. This was not about consumer protection at all. This is naked protectionism for EU business interests and government interests, pure and simple. Sold to EU citizens as consumer protection. Whether prices are lowered or not, whether security is increased or not, whether consumers are better off or not will not be calculated, and will have no sunsetting affect on this legislation. As many of you have noted, the hoped-for changes are not generally found in the Android world.

E) The IOS market IS different than the Android Market. It is a much more valuable market because it has a more valuable customer base. This will, in my estimation, make it much more likely for big 3rd parties like Amazon, Netflix, Spotify, etc. to do everything they can to access and sell to Apple's curated customer list without providing any compensation back to Apple. This will have the affect of splitting the IOS market into segments, and will usher in a cat-and-mouse game between Apple and the big players. Who care much less about customer experience than they do getting free access to a resource they didn't build.

F) This will not stop here. The EU obviously has much deeper plans. Cookies, USB C, Alternate App Stores are just the appetizer. What these actions are doing is taking these decisions away from consumers and business, and inserting government into what is best left to consumer choice and markets.

G) In a world of increasing surveillance and privacy concerns, I have purposely chosen to centralize my computing on Apple devices. I chose this walled garden. Again, do I think the sky will fall in immediately? No, and to characterize mine and others' concerns in this manner is disingenuous. The concern here is that the EU is trying to crack open a system that I and many (most?) Apple users have chosen specifically because it is closed. Do I think security will immediately suffer? No. But I take a long-term view on these issues, and I've decided a closed system is better for me and my family than is an open system.

H) Apple is not a monopoly, and to keep arguing that it is employing "anti-competitive behavior" in a context in which they only have about 27% marketshare in the EU is to radically misrepresent the ideas of anti-competitive behavior. "Gatekeeper" is an invented term to get around the long-held notions of monopoly in order to specifically target non-EU technology companies.

I) IOS and MacOS have fundamental differences. And, Apple, in my estimation, is moving away, rapidly, from the MacOS model toward the IOS model. You may not like that. You may hate it. But I DO like it. I have chosen it. Saying "IOS will only be just like Mac OS, so what's the problem?" is a disingenous argument. It doesn't recognize the reasons for the development of IOS as it has been developed. But again, even if you hate it, I don't. And many others have chosen IOS for these reasons.

J) You actually CAN choose Android if a more open system is your preference. This "I'm locked into Apple forever and ever and can't get out!" argument is silly.

K) Good luck relying on the EU to decide all of these issues for you. I don't trust the EU to have my best interests at heart. Best of luck to you if you do.

Are you in the EU?