So apparently Lion sucks?

[broadcast]

+1

Great BG, please tell us where you got it!

As far as this thread goes - Yes, some buggy things that need to be addressed and probably will. My biggest pet peeve is the downgrade in multi monitor support. When I maximize a window, my other monitor is completely useless. This can't be that hard to fix in an update, can it? Please? (I'll be your best friend)

Chiba

+2

I came in here to complain about Lion, now I just want this background.

Actually I'll complain about Lion anyways

This has been said a million times and sounds redundant: BRING BACK EXPOSE AS AN OPTION. The calendar flip animation is pointless, get rid of it. Finder sidebar needs to be coloured, etc.

I've learned to live with these annoyances. Kind of.

 

[akhomerun]

I wish I could still play old mac games with Rosetta

If you still have a Leopard or Snow Leopard disk you should be able to install it from there

 

[Jagardn]

People may be happy with Lion, but it is not an upgrade to Snow Leopard in any way shape or form.

I guess because you say it, it's gotta be a fact. I had better reinstall Snow Leopard so I can upgrade from Lion

 

[jameslmoser]

I guess because you say it, it's gotta be a fact. I had better reinstall Snow Leopard so I can upgrade from Lion

I and the majority of the Mac OS X user base. Snow Leopard is still more than 50 percent (would probably be closer to 75% if Snow Leopard ran on PowerPC) of that. More than 6 months after its release people are still jumping through hoops to downgrade to Snow Leopard from Lion.

Almost all of Lion's new "features" were already possible in Snow Leopard one way or another, and the simple fact that they were optional is yet another feature Snow Leopard has over Lion.

Apple has made a lot of stupid decisions over the years ,like waiting 30 years to release a mouse with more than one button. The features of Lion is just another one of those stupid decisions.

So Apple releases Thunderbolt Displays that you can daisy chain of of each other (but can't use their previous display port directly unless you go through a third party device, then you can.. wtf) and even show two of them daisy chained off their macbook pro. But then release an OS that turns those displays into paper weights as soon as you use one of the "features". Full screen apps was possible in Snow Leopard. Apple even had iPhoto full screen in Snow Leopard just fine, and it didn't make your additional monitors useless.

Versions could have been cool... but they screwed that up too. It should have worked just like Undo/Redo works in all other apps. It could have been an amazing tool, a gui with versions of your undo history. They could have allowed it be dismissed if the user choose not to save, or they could have saved the undo history in the file if the user choose to. Instead they choose a very resource hungry and destructive default without any option to turn it off.

Don't even get me started on mission control... and Launchpad?? useless.... "Natural" scrolling... yeah if you were pushing things around on your screen with your finger...

The Mac App store... well, we had that in Snow Leopard too... and its just another way for apple to try and lock you into their ecosystem and take a cut of the developers products who have supported their platform all these years... ridiculous.

To the people who think Lion is better, save yourself some money and just go buy an iPad. Thats really what Apple wanted you to do in the first place.

 

[johannnn]

I and the majority of the Mac OS X user base. Snow Leopard is still more than 50 percent (would probably be closer to 75% if Snow Leopard ran on PowerPC) of that. More than 6 months after its release people are still jumping through hoops to downgrade to Snow Leopard from Lion.

Almost all of Lion's new "features" were already possible in Snow Leopard one way or another, and the simple fact that they were optional is yet another feature Snow Leopard has over Lion.

Apple has made a lot of stupid decisions over the years ,like waiting 30 years to release a mouse with more than one button. The features of Lion is just another one of those stupid decisions.

So Apple releases Thunderbolt Displays that you can daisy chain of of each other (but can't use their previous display port directly unless you go through a third party device, then you can.. wtf) and even show two of them daisy chained off their macbook pro. But then release an OS that turns those displays into paper weights as soon as you use one of the "features". Full screen apps was possible in Snow Leopard. Apple even had iPhoto full screen in Snow Leopard just fine, and it didn't make your additional monitors useless.

Versions could have been cool... but they screwed that up too. It should have worked just like Undo/Redo works in all other apps. It could have been an amazing tool, a gui with versions of your undo history. They could have allowed it be dismissed if the user choose not to save, or they could have saved the undo history in the file if the user choose to. Instead they choose a very resource hungry and destructive default without any option to turn it off.

Don't even get me started on mission control... and Launchpad?? useless.... "Natural" scrolling... yeah if you were pushing things around on your screen with your finger...

The Mac App store... well, we had that in Snow Leopard too... and its just another way for apple to try and lock you into their ecosystem and take a cut of the developers products who have supported their platform all these years... ridiculous.

To the people who think Lion is better, save yourself some money and just go buy an iPad. Thats really what Apple wanted you to do in the first place.

Has anyone ever told you that you sound very biased? Like, extremely biased.

 

[Krazy Bill]

Has anyone ever told you that you sound very biased? Like, extremely biased.

Why would you expect somebody that prefers one thing over another NOT to be biased? That's kind of the point in preferring one thing over the other... isn't it?

 

[daneoni]

I and the majority of the Mac OS X user base. Snow Leopard is still more than 50 percent (would probably be closer to 75% if Snow Leopard ran on PowerPC) of that. More than 6 months after its release people are still jumping through hoops to downgrade to Snow Leopard from Lion...

Hopefully you've submitted feedback to Apple.

 

[IzzyJG99]

Don't even get me started on mission control... and Launchpad?? useless.... "Natural" scrolling... yeah if you were pushing things around on your screen with your finger...

I agree. All these additions/features were for people who sit around and giggle that they can do on their Mac what they do on their iPad and iPhone. They're in the same group of people who thought it was freakin' magically fantastic when Mac's first came out with a speech function for text and then voice control.

"So computer what are you thinking about?"
"Stewie is cool."
"Yay!"

Just like that.

 

[jameslmoser]

Has anyone ever told you that you sound very biased? Like, extremely biased.

Umm. Duh?

 

[JDB1983]

Don't even get me started on mission control... and Launchpad?? useless.... "Natural" scrolling... yeah if you were pushing things around on your screen with your finger...

I like to push things around the screen with my middle finger while scrolling naturally

 

[jameslmoser]

Hopefully you've submitted feedback to Apple.

Yes I did, though that form is neglected by Apple. Didn't even have Lion on it for months after release... tells you how much Apple really cares about their customer's opinions.

 

[IzzyJG99]

Yes I did, though that form is neglected by Apple. Didn't even have Lion on it for months after release... tells you how much Apple really cares about their customer's opinions.

I've submitted tons of bug reports to Apple via that form. All but one were ignored. The only time I got any kind of feedback was when I was one of the first batch of people reporting the Wi-Fi problems. Guy from Apple called. Wanted to install some kind of crash reporter to "monitor the reason for the Wi-Fi drops" and I was like "Look, Dude. I'm already at 10.6 again cause I've got work to do. I'm not a developer. Bye."

Overall I feel Lion jumped the shark by a good year at least. And honestly I don't care what anyone else has to say on the matter. It's just my opinion. I can tell you that all of my formerly PC friends who switched to Mac during 10.5 and 10.6 have now sold their Macs because of problems with Lion and went back to PC's.

 

[daneoni]

I have faith that by 10.7.6 it'll have surpassed Snow Leopard. We have to remember it is still early days. Even Snow Leopard was far from perfect on launch.

 

[jameslmoser]

I have faith that by 10.7.6 it'll have surpassed Snow Leopard. We have to remember it is still early days. Even Snow Leopard was far from perfect on launch.

Snow Leopards bugs and Lion's ridiculous feature implementations are completely different things. Nothing I have mentioned is a bug... if it was all bugs I wouldn't be so concerned, I would just wait for them to be fixed. Apple doesn't consider the things I mentioned to be bugs, they actually think these were good ideas!

 

[daneoni]

Snow Leopards bugs and Lion's ridiculous feature implementations are completely different things. Nothing I have mentioned is a bug... if it was all bugs I wouldn't be so concerned, I would just wait for them to be fixed. Apple doesn't consider the things I mentioned to be bugs, they actually think these were good ideas!

Doesn't mean Apple haven't re-thought 'features' after customer feedback. In fact they do it quite often. So again i have faith Lion will be straightened out (not overhauled to look like SL) soon enough

 

[whitedragon101]

Doesn't mean Apple haven't re-thought 'features' after customer feedback. In fact they do it quite often. So again i have faith Lion will be straightened out (not overhauled to look like SL) soon enough

Does anyone else think this might happen?

 

[IzzyJG99]

Does anyone else think this might happen?

No. They got rid of Front Row. Why? Cause in their eyes they thought it's continued existence in new computers would take away from people buying Apple TVs. If they were smart they would've kept Front Row in 10.7 and given it the abilities that the Apple TVs have. People would still buy the Apple TVs. I'd still have bought one.

So, no. I don't have faith that they listen to customer feedback. I liked Front Row. I thought it was great.

If they really were listening and not constantly trying to press features from iOS into Lion.....we wouldn't have two separate apps for web chatting. They should've added FaceTime to iChat and made them compatible with one another.

Nevermind the fact FaceTime has a ton of bugs. If I want to FaceTime a friend it goes to ALL of his devices that're on and near a Wi-Fi. So 9 out of 10 times instead of going to his iMac or his iPhone, which he is in front of it goes first to his iPad and then says "UNAVAILABLE" or "MISSED CALL." Should give you the option of picking which DEVICE you want to call that person on. If they're not on the iPad, it'll go to the next one and if it's not on there...then the one he is. Process of elimination. If they don't even add that simple feature then I don't know what the heck those shaved apes in Cupertino are doing anymore.

I like Lion. I think it has some great things that clean the GUI up. But this just seems like one giant "Patch" that adds iOS like functions.

 

[daneoni]

No. They got rid of Front Row. Why? Cause in their eyes they thought it's continued existence in new computers would take away from people buying Apple TVs. If they were smart they would've kept Front Row in 10.7 and given it the abilities that the Apple TVs have. People would still buy the Apple TVs. I'd still have bought one.

So, no. I don't have faith that they listen to customer feedback. I liked Front Row. I thought it was great.


If they really were listening TO ME

Fixed.

They got rid of Front Row because it was rarely used on a Mac. Front Row had a very niche user base, majority of its use came from Apple TV because very few connect their macs to a TV or actually use their Macs as an HTPC. Hence most end users only came across/used it on the Apple TV. Photobooth, its counterpart, in contrast sees far greater use and hence its further update in Lion.

Throughout its tenure i can count the number of times i used Front Row on a mac in one hand and i'm not the only...many don't even know it exists. Makes sense on an Apple TV or on a Mac mini connected to a TV but few people have the latter setup hence it makes sense to divert it to Apple TV.

Apple listens to the majority and Lion has been met with universal criticism hence Apple won't ignore.

As for a FaceTime, it is a feature that debuted in iOS and is still in transition to the Mac. Obvious that FaceTime, iMessage and iChat will all eventually integrate but that can't happen in one night.

 

[IzzyJG99]

Apple listens to the majority and Lion has been met with universal criticism hence Apple won't ignore.

What's it like in Fantasy Land?

No, but seriously. Valid points. I can only hope you are right.

And I can only hope that iChat, iMessage, etc, etc are rolled into one functional app fairly soon.

 

[jameslmoser]

Apple listens to the majority and Lion has been met with universal criticism hence Apple won't ignore.

I hope your right, but I doubt it. Apple is too conceited to admit Lion has issues. And to address these would mean big changes to Lion. All their advertising media and everything else would be outdated. I am betting we won't see any significant change until 10.8 (or maybe OS X 11?). By then it will be either much worse because Apple will have fully merged iOS and Mac OS X, or it will be better because Apple will realize people don't use their computers like they use their phones, ipod touches, and ipads and finally give some attention back to Mac OS X as a computing platform, not just some media consumption tool.

I fear Snow Leopard was the last great version of Mac OS X, the last productive and usable commercially backed unix desktop, and that I will have to go back to the other BSD's or Linux.

 

[daneoni]

What's it like in Fantasy Land?

Its not really fantasy. There are examples to be had;

-Omission of Firewire from Unibody MacBooks but is later reintroduced in the 13" MBP
-Omission of Anti-Glare screen option in the Unibody MBPs but is later reintroduced as an option
-Button less iPod shuttle released but is met with revolt and Apple responds by bringing back a buttoned shuffle in the next revision
-Initial betas of Lion had some terrible UI choices that were subsequently tweaked in later betas.
-Apple resisted Third Party apps in iOS initially...look where we are now
-Lion initially download only vis SL Mac App Store was met with complaints but now optionally available a la cart on a USB stick.

If enough people criticize...Apple will more often than not respond.

That said whilst they may tweak and offer some more options in Lion, the overall concept (where they want to take OS X going forward) will likely remain.

In other words, things like GPU drivers and multi-display/full screen app support will be fixed, but that doesn't mean Launchpad or Mission Control are going away anytime soon.

 

[Jagardn]

To the people who think Lion is better, save yourself some money and just go buy an iPad. Thats really what Apple wanted you to do in the first place.

I sold my iPad to get a MacBook Air. You can't replace a Mac with an iPad. If the iPad supported development tools, graphic design software, and video editing software(more robust than iMovie), then maybe it could. For now...not even close. I couldn't imagine developing web sites, databases, or software on a device with a touchscreen keyboard. Yes, I could get a bluetooth keyboard, but that makes the iPad harder to travel with than a MB Air. The iPad is a consumption device, I and many others still need a laptop.

 

[jameslmoser]

I sold my iPad to get a MacBook Air. You can't replace a Mac with an iPad. If the iPad supported development tools, graphic design software, and video editing software(more robust than iMovie), then maybe it could. For now...not even close. I couldn't imagine developing web sites, databases, or software on a device with a touchscreen keyboard. Yes, I could get a bluetooth keyboard, but that makes the iPad harder to travel with than a MB Air. The iPad is a consumption device, I and many others still need a laptop.

Your not disagreeing with me, you made my point! Now tell that to Apple!! Post PC era my @$$..

 

[Jagardn]

Your not disagreeing with me, you made my point! Now tell Apple that to Apple!! Post PC era my @$$..

But I do disagree with you on the Lion Features.

- I like mission control, I didn't like spaces, just a personal preference.
- I use Versions in iWork, Pixelmator, Artboard, Taco HTML editor. I actually like the way it works.
-Natural Scrolling, I use it every day on my iPhone, it just feels natural on my MB Pro and MB Air with a trackpad.
-LauchPad...not so much, but you don't have to use it.

I didn't make your point, your point was too buy an iPad because Lion sucks so bad. No where in your post did it say an iPad could replace a Mac.

 

[jameslmoser]

But I do disagree with you on the Lion Features.

- I like mission control, I didn't like spaces, just a personal preference.
- I use Versions in iWork, Pixelmator, Artboard, Taco HTML editor. I actually like the way it works.
-Natural Scrolling, I use it every day on my iPhone, it just feels natural on my MB Pro and MB Air with a trackpad.
-LauchPad...not so much, but you don't have to use it.

I didn't make your point, your point was too buy an iPad because Lion sucks so bad. No where in your post did it say an iPad could replace a Mac.

It still sort of sounds like your arguing with yourself. No where in my post did it say that because I didn't say that!! Apple thinks iOS is the future, but iOS doesn't and can't replace a real desktop OS.... but apple is trying its hardest to do so.

Good for you, you didn't like Spaces, fine... you know what the difference between Snow Leopard's Spaces and Lion's Mission Control was? You could shut spaces off! Thats right, you could! Not only that... you could use Expose with it turned off. You don't have those options anymore. Your right, it is a "preference"... but in Lion its one that was made for you by Apple.

You like Versions... you could have had auto save and versioning done in Snow Leopard, any way you wanted. It wasn't forced on you if you didn't want it, or in a way that you didn't want.

There is nothing natural about "natural scrolling". Every computing platform since the GUI was invented used scrolling the same way. I would argue that makes it more natural. At least with "Natural scrolling" you can shut it off.