So are all MBP owners with the 8600m GT cards screwed?

[ecschwarz]

I have neither received an email or call from Apple announcing a repair program, nor I was aware of it. Don't you think they had the obligation to acknowledge customers about this issue, and by not doing so they acted in bad faith?

In my case, I purchased the $349 apple care but never had to use it. I purchased the laptop on January 2nd, 2008. Unfortunately, the black screen happened few months (April 2012) after the 4 year repair program ended. Some or many people didn't purchase the apple care but were "fortunate enough" to experience the issue during that interval. Why Apple is discriminating against customers?

I'm not going to blindly defend Apple in this situation, but I think they did as much as they reasonably could. Many machines were fine, and this may have caused excess panic if this was sent out as a notice. I do know the lawyers sent out a thing for the actual NVIDIA settlement that affected these machines and those from Dell and HP, although I don't remember if it took away your eligibility for the Apple program (I doubt it).

Although many people keep their Macs for more than 4 years (myself included), I think that was a reasonable amount of time, and the fact that Apple would reimburse you for repairs made related to this if you were previously charged. I don't think Apple was discriminating necessarily, as offering different coverage for those who bought AppleCare could lead to a slippery slope for other repair extension programs. As someone who bought AppleCare myself, I can see how you feel it was unfair that those who didn't buy it were still covered (at least in that area) as long as you were, but I think this was a good faith measure to back a product that they sold for all customers. Now, if they had repaired other components (hard drives, batteries, etc.) for those who didn't buy AppleCare, I could see how you'd be steamed.

I seem to recall a similar program back in the early 2000s for the iBook G3s - I worked at a school where we had them and it was a similar graphics chip defect - in that case, the extension was three years for issues relating to the graphics chip, and for repeat offenders, the company simply exchanged for an iBook G4 (I know many individual users who had this happen, too) - in that case, Apple supposedly contacted some customers, but I have no experience as to if this actually happened or not: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10343732-263.html#!

 

[sofianito]

I'm not going to blindly defend Apple in this situation, but I think they did as much as they reasonably could. Many machines were fine, and this may have caused excess panic if this was sent out as a notice. I do know the lawyers sent out a thing for the actual NVIDIA settlement that affected these machines and those from Dell and HP, although I don't remember if it took away your eligibility for the Apple program (I doubt it).

Although many people keep their Macs for more than 4 years (myself included), I think that was a reasonable amount of time, and the fact that Apple would reimburse you for repairs made related to this if you were previously charged. I don't think Apple was discriminating necessarily, as offering different coverage for those who bought AppleCare could lead to a slippery slope for other repair extension programs. As someone who bought AppleCare myself, I can see how you feel it was unfair that those who didn't buy it were still covered (at least in that area) as long as you were, but I think this was a good faith measure to back a product that they sold for all customers. Now, if they had repaired other components (hard drives, batteries, etc.) for those who didn't buy AppleCare, I could see how you'd be steamed.

I seem to recall a similar program back in the early 2000s for the iBook G3s - I worked at a school where we had them and it was a similar graphics chip defect - in that case, the extension was three years for issues relating to the graphics chip, and for repeat offenders, the company simply exchanged for an iBook G4 (I know many individual users who had this happen, too) - in that case, Apple supposedly contacted some customers, but I have no experience as to if this actually happened or not: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10343732-263.html#!

The Apple discriminating policy I pointed to is regarding customers who had the issue during the repair program period vs customers who had the issue after the repair program ended, independently whether they had or not purchased AC.

Although, the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) of a defective GPU is lower than the MTBF of the same non defective GPU, you would agree with me that the MTBF is a mean with error margins and not an absolute value. It also depends on other factors. For instance, a component used less frequently has likely a higher MTBF than a component used more intensively (assuming other factors are the same for both components). So, stating that the MTBF of the detective NVidia GPU had to be reached within the 4 years after purchase is a baseless claim... Apple has to prove such claim...

Apple lies like a rug

 

[Ledgem]

The Apple discriminating policy I pointed to is regarding customers who had the issue during the repair program period vs customers who had the issue after the repair program ended, independently whether they had or not purchased AC.

They set a time limit because it would be somewhat ridiculous to cover these systems forever. There was an unusually high failure rate with these graphics chips, but the point is that after four years it becomes difficult to claim that your card failed because of the defective design instead of normal usage. "But maybe the card would have lasted longer," you could argue, but that isn't the point. It isn't unusual for other hardware components that aren't considered defective to fail around that time period, and why should Apple have to cover those? They were covering cases where the card was clearly failing at the unusually early point in time. Your system didn't fail within that time period.

It seems like Apple tried to do right by you. It sounds like they were willing to try and test your machine to see if the issue was caused by the nVidia card, but they weren't able to verify it. If they were willing to do it at all then it sounds like they would have covered you under this program, even though it ended quite some time ago. You received the error code from elsewhere, but given that the replacement program is already over by a few months that isn't good enough for Apple. Again, considering how many people abuse their return and warranty policies, I don't blame them. Good luck getting a free repair, but don't expect it. Your system died at a "young old" age, but the fact is that it reached "old" status.

 

[sofianito]

They set a time limit because it would be somewhat ridiculous to cover these systems forever. There was an unusually high failure rate with these graphics chips, but the point is that after four years it becomes difficult to claim that your card failed because of the defective design instead of normal usage. "But maybe the card would have lasted longer," you could argue, but that isn't the point. It isn't unusual for other hardware components that aren't considered defective to fail around that time period, and why should Apple have to cover those? They were covering cases where the card was clearly failing at the unusually early point in time. Your system didn't fail within that time period.

It seems like Apple tried to do right by you. It sounds like they were willing to try and test your machine to see if the issue was caused by the nVidia card, but they weren't able to verify it. If they were willing to do it at all then it sounds like they would have covered you under this program, even though it ended quite some time ago. You received the error code from elsewhere, but given that the replacement program is already over by a few months that isn't good enough for Apple. Again, considering how many people abuse their return and warranty policies, I don't blame them. Good luck getting a free repair, but don't expect it. Your system died at a "young old" age, but the fact is that it reached "old" status.

Yeah, the clearly failing occurring the last day of the 4th year repair program is freely fixed by apple, but not if it occurs 3 months later after the end of the program... It is clear Apple doesn't care if my wife used the laptop infrequently and with non gpu intensive applications, but the fact is that Apple didn't pay any penny from their pockets during the 4 years repair program. Nvidia footed the bill for each replaced board!

If a report from a Apple Authorized Service Provider is not good enough, then I'll go to another apple store to perform the test. What I would like to know is if the store manager has enough power and freedom to take the decision to repair it freely? In your case you mentioned that a representative had the power to take such decision. Is there a representative at each apple store or are they reached only through phone calls?

Cheers.

 

[Ledgem]

Yeah, the clearly failing occurring the last day of the 4th year repair program is freely fixed by apple, but not if it occurs 3 months later after the end of the program... It is clear Apple doesn't care if my wife used the laptop infrequently and with non gpu intensive applications, but the fact is that Apple didn't pay any penny from their pockets during the 4 years repair program. Nvidia footed the bill for each replaced board!

It's not about Apple caring or not, it's about being able to verify claims. You claim that your wife used the laptop infrequently and with non-GPU intensive applications (which don't strain the GPU much overall, by the way - on/off cycles put more stress on the components), but how can Apple know that? If Apple said that they would cover people within a four year period or people who rarely used their computers then I can guarantee you that there would be a sudden surge of people claiming that they were very light users of their computers once that four-year period ended. Of course, many of them would be lying or bending the truth. You have to figure that setting a time limit will always result in someone getting cut off by a day, but it is what it is for the reasons I stated before: your computer is old enough that it becomes difficult to say that the GPU failed specifically because of the defective design as compared with normal wear-and-tear.

As to what it costs Apple, I disagree. nVidia may have paid for the cost of the system boards, but Apple is still paying the personnel who do the work on your computer. You're taking slots at a Genius Bar that someone with a more expensive repair could be occupying. Because the replacement involves replacing the core system components all at once, by getting these replacements you're putting off purchasing a new system for potentially another upgrade cycle - and that's money that Apple isn't getting. So yes, this does cost Apple.

If a report from a Apple Authorized Service Provider is not good enough, then I'll go to another apple store to perform the test. What I would like to know is if the store manager has enough power and freedom to take the decision to repair it freely? In your case you mentioned that a representative had the power to take such decision. Is there a representative at each apple store or are they reached only through phone calls?

In my experience it seems that the Apple Geniuses have a fair amount of freedom. Because your case is a bit special a manager would likely have to make the decision. Based on shared experiences in these forums it seems like the managers have even more freedom to make that decision. This is all in-person.

But if I may be frank, I don't think you're going to get anything for free. Your model is a 2007 MBP in the middle of the year 2013. I don't know when yours was manufactured or when you purchased it, but that model was introduced exactly six years ago (June 2007) and its production ended in February 2008. If a laptop lasts beyond four years most people would say that it's phenomenal, and yours has gone well beyond four years. I was affected by this GPU issue and as such I have a lot of sympathy for anyone else who was as well, but if I were an Apple store representative and you came to me with this issue I would not give you a free replacement. Your computer has already lived a full life, hardware failures are expected on computers of that age, and the hardware failure you're experiencing doesn't strike me as being unique to this model.

Go ahead and try one more time for a free repair, because even though Apple owes you nothing at this point you never know if they'll take mercy on you. But recognize that you likely have two options at this point: pay for the replacement board, or buy a new system. If you want my advice, buy a new system. The replacement board is essentially a new computer, but the rest of your components are still old. Case in point, one of the fans on my early 2008 MBP recently started to fail (it won't spin up beyond 2000 RPM, and I question if it's even doing 2000 RPM). The system is still usable and I could replace it without too much trouble if I really wanted to, but it would be a different story if the monitor failed.

 

[sofianito]

On Sunday, I went to another Apple store to perform the test and obtained the same validation code as the one I did at the AASP!. The genius bar was very nice and humble. I wish all Apple tech staff were like him... I had the opportunity to consult my case history, and man, these people are like policemen, they report everything, and anything you may say could be used against you. Fortunately, I have always been polite with them and I have always said the truth.

Thanks God, my prayers have been answered!
On Monday, I had a phone call with the Customer Representative, and he offered me a such very nice deal that I had no other choice than to accept: They would provide me the motherboard replacement and I would pay $45 for the labor costs .

Thank you very much Apple!. Thank you to everybody who helped/supported me!

 

[ecschwarz]

Thanks God, my prayers have been answered!
On Monday, I had a phone call with the Customer Representative, and he offered me a such very nice deal that I had no other choice than to accept: They would provide me the motherboard replacement and I would pay $45 for the labor costs .

Thank you very much Apple!. Thank you to everybody who helped/supported me!

Glad to hear the story turned out well - it sounds like you were persistent, but also polite enough that someone felt like taking the time to help you and it paid off! That's a pretty good compromise that they offered.

 

[sofianito]

Glad to hear the story turned out well - it sounds like you were persistent, but also polite enough that someone felt like taking the time to help you and it paid off! That's a pretty good compromise that they offered.

Thanks. Indeed, it is a very good compromise . I am paying $45 instead of $657 which is almost the price a a new MBA!!! . Not to mention the price I am paying includes 3 months warranty .

 

[sofianito]

I got back my MBP today . Finally, I didn't pay anything for labor costs! It was a full free repair . I bought a new battery for €145. It is more expensive than in the US ($129), but I won't complain knowing the big discount I had

Here is the 32-bit GeekBench result

The motherboard has been replaced by a REV2 version. Is there a way to verify it through a GUI or command line application? I run the following command to generate a full XML report:

system_profiler -detailLevel full -xml >~/MySystem.spx

but I am not sure what keyword or value to search. Any idea?

 

[chrfr]

a REV2 version. Is there a way to verify it through a GUI or command line application? I run the following command to generate a full XML report:

"Rev 2" doesn't really mean anything and as such it's not worth trying to figure out how to identify it.

 

[Idefix]

I got back my MBP today . Finally, I didn't pay anything for labor costs! It was a full free repair . I bought a new battery for €145. It is more expensive than in the US ($129), but I won't complain knowing the big discount I had

Here is the 32-bit GeekBench result

The motherboard has been replaced by a REV2 version. Is there a way to verify it through a GUI or command line application? I run the following command to generate a full XML report:


but I am not sure what keyword or value to search. Any idea?

Congratulations!

And now, you should immortalize your success by adding your win to this website that documents the whole NVIDIA 8600M snafu:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/MacBookPro_video_failure.html#storytop

 

[sofianito]

"Rev 2" doesn't really mean anything and as such it's not worth trying to figure out how to identify it.

I have 3 months warranty and I want just to be sure I got the right MB.

They told me the fix is definitive because the REV2 motherboard has the revised version of the 8600M GT chipset. I believe the MB or chipset revision ID or some string value must have changed to differentiate between older and newer revision of MB or graphic chipset.

The system Profiler shows:
Chipset Model: GeForce 8600M GT
Type: GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 256MB
Vendor: NVIDIA (0x10de)
Revision ID: 0x00a1
ROM version: 3175

Does anyone know the previous values of Revision ID and ROM versions?

----------

Congratulations!

And now, you should immortalize your success by adding your win to this website that documents the whole NVIDIA 8600M snafu:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/MacBookPro_video_failure.html#storytop

Thanks!

I'll definitely send them my success story

----------

If ever wanted to sell my new repaired MBP 17" (2.6Ghz, 2GB RAM, 200GB disk, Hires 1920x1200 mate display. It includes FrontRow remote control), how much could I get for it?

 

[chrfr]

They told me the fix is definitive because the REV2 motherboard has the revised version of the 8600M GT chipset.

Yeah, it's not definitive at all. I have a machine here that was Rev 2 that failed just outside of the service warranty. If you read through this thread you'll find others, I'm sure.

 

[sofianito]

Yeah, it's not definitive at all. I have a machine here that was Rev 2 that failed just outside of the service warranty. If you read through this thread you'll find others, I'm sure.

Sorry for that

Have you been able to verify it was indeed a Rev2?

Any suggestions on what would be the most effective way to test the GPU thoroughly?

 

[mscriv]

Sorry for that

Have you been able to verify it was indeed a Rev2?

Any suggestions on what would be the most effective way to test the GPU thoroughly?

Sofianito, I'm not sure if you've actually read this entire thread and I would understand if you haven't since it dates back many years and is so lengthy. Many who have posted here have stated that the Rev2 board is really no different than the Rev1 board. There wasn't any clear way to predict or know which boards would fail and which ones wouldn't and thus no clear way to prevent future failure in the Rev2 boards. Several users have posted that they experienced failures with Rev2 boards after their Rev1's were replaced. Some have had more than two replacements and in many cases Apple replaced people's entire machines after multiple failures.

The bottom line is that it's great Apple has done the repair for free and that you now have a new board. However, at this point I would consider every day that the machine works a blessing and use it as long as it will last. There is no way to know if it will fail again and if it does I wouldn't count on Apple doing another repair. Of course it wouldn't hurt to ask, but I doubt they will help again considering the extended warranty is now expired.

I bought a 17" 08 MBP with the 8600 in it used from a friend here at MR. It is still going strong and so far hasn't shown any signs of failure. The plan is to keep using it as long as I can and be thankful that I haven't experienced the difficulties that many others have had with this model.

 

[sofianito]

Sofianito, I'm not sure if you've actually read this entire thread and I would understand if you haven't since it dates back many years and is so lengthy. Many who have posted here have stated that the Rev2 board is really no different than the Rev1 board. There wasn't any clear way to predict or know which boards would fail and which ones wouldn't and thus no clear way to prevent future failure in the Rev2 boards. Several users have posted that they experienced failures with Rev2 boards after their Rev1's were replaced. Some have had more than two replacements and in many cases Apple replaced people's entire machines after multiple failures.

The bottom line is that it's great Apple has done the repair for free and that you now have a new board. However, at this point I would consider every day that the machine works a blessing and use it as long as it will last. There is no way to know if it will fail again and if it does I wouldn't count on Apple doing another repair. Of course it wouldn't hurt to ask, but I would count on it considering that the extended warranty is now expired.

I bought a 17" 08 MBP with the 8600 in it used from a friend here at MR. It is still going strong and so far hasn't shown any signs of failure. The plan is to keep using it as long as I can and be thankful that I haven't experienced the difficulties that many others have had with this model.

Thanks you very much for the information. Indeed, I didn't read all the thread and was not aware people had same issues with REV2. These bad news have spoiled my plan to sell it and get a 13" MBA for my wife... . Well, I might keep it for me and give her my late 2008 2.4Ghz MBP because the 17" with Snow Leopard had a higher benchmark

I am going to install Mavericks DP1 on it an see how it goes...
UPDATE: I did 3 geek benches and got different results : 3512, 3423, 1680. Can't explain the results. I have restarted GeekBench and Safari and got a 3577. It could be some memory leaks...

Anyway, comparing SL and Mavericks benchmarks, it seems there is no big difference!. The user experience and speed look good. I am running with 2GB RAM and had no lag, although Activity Monitor shows I am using 1,91 GB of 2,00 GB and no swap used... . I am going to put 4 GB RAM and see what happens...

 

[mscriv]

Thanks you very much for the information. Indeed, I didn't read all the thread and was not aware people had same issues with REV2. These bad news have spoiled my plan to sell it and get a 13" MBA for my wife... . Well, I might keep it for me and give her my late 2008 2.4Ghz MBP because the 17" with Snow Leopard had a higher benchmark

It's still a quality computer and does have a new board in it. Don't be surprised if someone isn't open to buying it. Of course you likely won't get top dollar due to the risk involved, but like I said, there is really no way to predict if this new board will fail or not. It could run strong for a few more years and thus be a great machine for someone who doesn't have the need for a more current or powerful model.

 

[pandabearjohnso]

try smcFanControl

Hi Sofianito and congrats on getting the replacement covered by Apple. I've got a 2008 15" SR on its 2nd MB. Ever since the failure of the 1st MB I've been running smcFanControl and keep the fan speed boosted most of the time. I run the fans at 4000 RPM for normal use and keep an eye on the temp before I close the lid. If I see the temp is over 60C I let it idle until the temp comes down. For example it is 45C now with no heavy graphics.

Maybe all of this is just superstition but some posters on this thread believe it to be effective (others just think its a was of battery and fan life). I'd rather replace the batt and fans than the MB.

Good luck w/ your new (old) machine!

 

[sofianito]

Hi Sofianito and congrats on getting the replacement covered by Apple. I've got a 2008 15" SR on its 2nd MB. Ever since the failure of the 1st MB I've been running smcFanControl and keep the fan speed boosted most of the time. I run the fans at 4000 RPM for normal use and keep an eye on the temp before I close the lid. If I see the temp is over 60C I let it idle until the temp comes down. For example it is 45C now with no heavy graphics.

Maybe all of this is just superstition but some posters on this thread believe it to be effective (others just think its a was of battery and fan life). I'd rather replace the batt and fans than the MB.

Good luck w/ your new (old) machine!

Thank you very much Pandabearjohnso. I'll give smcFanControl a go.
Actually, I use my MBP in clamshell mode. After installing Snow Leopard, I noted that sometimes fans start spinning fast although no process is consuming more than 2% of CPU time. Also, the left side speaker get hotter than the right side. I guess the CPU or graphic chipset is located on the left side...
After installing Mavericks DP2, it seems to me the symptoms have disappeared. I'll monitor the temperature and fans speed to confirm it. I have upgraded the RAM to 4GB and Mavericks running fine, maybe a bit slower than SL. On the other hand, Safari is much faster on Mavericks than SL.

I'll likely get a 13" rMBP when haswell is released. Meanwhile I have 3 months warranty to stress out this machine, then I'll return it to my wife

 

[mwhities]

I was just asked to see if I could fix a 2007 MBP 15" that happens to have the NVidia 8300M GT.

I tried everything I could and nothing worked. I searched the net and found several things that supposed to help, including baking the card. Not going to try that... but, I did find the KB article on Apple's Support site:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377 (I'm sure it's been posted already (didn't read through all of it.))

So I called Apple and I presented them the serial number and the KB article. I figured they'd ask me to pay for support or tell me right away that it couldn't replaced as it was too old.

Instead, he read the article and did some searching. He finally stated that he wanted to set me an appointment with the Apple Store locally. So, he said he's going note the KB and get me in so they can look at it.

This is going further than I expected. I was ready for them to say they couldn't help and that's it. I'm fine with that. I figure tomorrow (the appointment is for tomorrow at 7:45PM.) they look at it and possibly say they can't help but, again, it's still more than I expected again.

So, I'll report back tomorrow with what they say and do.

 

[sofianito]

I was just asked to see if I could fix a 2007 MBP 15" that happens to have the NVidia 8300M GT.

I tried everything I could and nothing worked. I searched the net and found several things that supposed to help, including baking the card. Not going to try that... but, I did find the KB article on Apple's Support site:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377 (I'm sure it's been posted already (didn't read through all of it.))

So I called Apple and I presented them the serial number and the KB article. I figured they'd ask me to pay for support or tell me right away that it couldn't replaced as it was too old.

Instead, he read the article and did some searching. He finally stated that he wanted to set me an appointment with the Apple Store locally. So, he said he's going note the KB and get me in so they can look at it.

This is going further than I expected. I was ready for them to say they couldn't help and that's it. I'm fine with that. I figure tomorrow (the appointment is for tomorrow at 7:45PM.) they look at it and possibly say they can't help but, again, it's still more than I expected again.

So, I'll report back tomorrow with what they say and do.

Don't forget to insist they run the GPU validation test even if they tell you the free repair program is over. With the GPU error code you could still argue with the customer representative. The test must be run with both power source and battery plugged. If you see the lid light blinking during the test, bingo the GPU is the issue!

Good luck for tomorrow, and don't forget to pray God to help you!. He is the only one Who can fix your problems

 

[mwhities]

Don't forget to insist they run the GPU validation test even if they tell you the free repair program is over. With the GPU error code you could still argue with the customer representative. The test must be run with both power source and battery plugged. If you see the lid light blinking during the test, bingo the GPU is the issue!

Good luck for tomorrow, and don't forget to pray God to help you!. He is the only one Who can fix your problems

Will do.

I don't need to pray, this is a pastor's daughter's system. I told her one of three things could happen... #1. They say No. #2. They fix it. #3. They replace it with a new MBP (I told her #1 will be mostly likely and #2 if we get lucky and #3, I doubt it will happen.) She stated they'd pray about it last night at church... so there are probably 100's of people praying for it now.

 

[Ledgem]

She stated they'd pray about it last night at church... so there are probably 100's of people praying for it now.

Seems like a rather funny thing to pray for, considering all the other problems in the world

Hopefully Apple will cover you, but it sounds like you have a good attitude about it regardless.

 

[mwhities]

Seems like a rather funny thing to pray for, considering all the other problems in the world

Hopefully Apple will cover you, but it sounds like you have a good attitude about it regardless.

My thoughts....

Well, they stated that they stopped doing the repairs after 5 years in all states minus California. Apparently, I could take it there and get it replaced per California has law that the state has to repair it up to 7 years. No idea.

The Apple rep was very professional and really (seemed as though) felt bad fr not being able to help. I told her I was surprised that the Apple rep on the phone even asked me to bring it in.

The data is still good so, no big loss. I think her daughter wanted a new one anyways.

Thanks all.

 

[Quadra700]

I was lucky enough to get a free new logic board for my out of warranty macbook pro mid 2007 but the first thing i did when i got it back was remove all the compound that apple uses and replaced it with arctic silver 5. Makes about a 20c difference so temps average 40-50c now... Best bet is get this done asap and reduce the chances of the BGA causing issues.

Cheers,