So are all MBP owners with the 8600m GT cards screwed?

[unwinded]

I just bought a new "old" MacBook Pro and I am a little concerned about the 8600m GT defect. It is nice to know that if it fails in the next two years that it will be freely replaced, but it would be inconvenient to have that happen. Personally, I never "love" anything again after it goes through a repair.

But honestly, if it makes it two years without a problem then it is not likely to ever have one. True, there are online forums with surveys where users have voted a 33% failure rate but you have to remember that these are online forums and anybody can vote. The people likely to post are the ones that are having problems. This defect is also not limited to that 8600m GT, but the entire nVidia 8x series of mobile GPUs. And one more thing, I used to own a MacBook Pro with a AT x1600 that occasionally had some of the "symptoms" that users experience with "faulty" 8600ms.. such as blank screens coming out of sleep, discoloration coming out of sleep, and strange artifacts that looks like somebody sliced the screen up. Since this is two different video manufacturers, I would say that these issues are software/driver related.

So stop worrying. If you have to replace it three times, you probably get a new one based on lemon laws, right? If you don't have to replace it at all in two years, you're most likely safe. And if you are super paranoid then sell it around then.

 

[golden axe]

The Apple Tech Support I visited in Rotterdam yesterday told me that it wasn't really a hardware problem but a software problem which should be solved by Nvidia and that while playing CoD4 under Mac OS X the 8600m GT is only used at 70 - 80%. In Bootcamp XP isn't scaled down and runs at full speed causing the temperature to rise quite quickly. Is Nvidia working on a new patch or do they focus all their attention on the new MBP in stead ?.

 

[Eddyisgreat]

The Apple Tech Support I visited in Rotterdam yesterday told me that it wasn't really a hardware problem but a software problem which should be solved by Nividia and that while playing CoD4 under Mac OS X the 8600m GT is only used at 70 - 80%. Pitty, insn't it.

You got lied to by the ill informed apple tech. He should have said Apple has always downclocked their laptop GPUs well below stock specifications to keep heat down. It isn't a new thing.

 

[mct74]

The Apple Tech Support I visited in Rotterdam yesterday told me that it wasn't really a hardware problem but a software problem which should be solved by Nvidia and that while playing CoD4 under Mac OS X the 8600m GT is only used at 70 - 80%. In Bootcamp XP isn't scaled down and runs at full speed causing the temperature to rise quite quickly. Is Nvidia working on a new patch or do they focus all their attention on the new MBP in stead ?.

Issue is not software-related, but a manufacturing issue with the materials used. I actually had this confirmed by an nVidia engineer after I placed a phone call to nVidia support. Sad that some Apple tech people make stuff up as they go along without knowing the facts...

 

[benjs]

Sad that some Apple tech people make stuff up as they go along without knowing the facts...

Agreed. I've called four different AppleCare representatives regarding this in the last few days.. all different answers, go figure!

 

[Zw42a]

So i bought my Mac book pro in march 2008... And i don't have apple care.. What can i do not to get screwed? Can i ask for a new Mac book pro at the end of the year since the GPU's are faulty? ^^

You can still get AppleCare in the first year.

 

[alphaod]

I asked the Genius at my local Apple Store about the revised 17" MBP's GPU and he flat out said that the defect in the GPUs could still be in the revised models. As a result, I just picked up the 15" 2.53Ghz MBP...

It's possible, but since the 17" have been reboxed; also since NVIDIA has corrected the issue, if the 17" was made after September, there shouldn't be an issue. Nonetheles congrats on the computer.

You got lied to by the ill informed apple tech. He should have said Apple has always downclocked their laptop GPUs well below stock specifications to keep heat down. It isn't a new thing.

It could just be another lying tech. I've met a few of those. Sometimes they tell me crap; for example, I asked about using 6GB of RAM and they said it doesn't work and it's limited by hardware; of course I proceeded to show him the RAM working, so he asked me how I spoofed it. What a SOB.

 

[Zw42a]

1.Announcment 10.10.08
2.security update 10.10.08
3.MBP dead after the update 10.10.08

do i miss something here

PS:4.Last day in my warranty 10.10.2008.

Give Apple a call and ask for an extend warranty. I got mine a few weeks back after my GPU broke down. My 1.5 year old MBP SR just got a whole new motherboard + GPU for free.

Thanks Apple! Best service!

 

[bushbaby]

Give Apple a call and ask for an extend warranty. I got mine a few weeks back after my GPU broke down. My 1.5 year old MBP SR just got a whole new motherboard + GPU for free.

Thanks Apple! Best service!

Do you know if they replaced it with another 8600?

 

[MowingDevil]

You got lied to by the ill informed apple tech. He should have said Apple has always downclocked their laptop GPUs well below stock specifications to keep heat down. It isn't a new thing.

He didn't get lied to, just sounds like a miscommunication.
There were LOTS of video issues that WERE in fact fixed by a software update in 10.5.5 like vertical striping etc. I've heard countless accounts of people who *thought* they had faulty NVIDIA issues and they were immediately rectified w/ the update. They were most likely talking about 2 different video problems.

The failed GPU issue obviously can't be fixed w/ a software issue as its a soldering problem.

I like how geniuses will now talk about the NVIDIA problem now that Apple has come clean (and most likely lifted the moritorium off any mention of it - I'd like to see that memo that probably went around). Before the announcement I went into an Apple store and the sales girl didn't even know what a GPU was. The Genius I spoke to knew what I was discussing (you could tell by his face) but wouldn't admit it. He had even seen the NVIDIA press annoncement where they denied there was a big problem (ie lied) which resulted in their stocks plummeting. Why should we believe NVIDIA now?

I think Apple took a big risk getting in bed w/ them again but I'm sure the plans for the new notebooks were well under way before any faulty NVIDIA news came to light. Be interesting to see what happens w/ the next round of notebooks.

What I'd like to know is....can Apple & NVIDIA guarantee that the same soldering process has been FIXED and anyone getting their logicboard replaced at least won't get another one infected w/ the SAME problems? I'd like to think they fixed the issue & have been using a different material on all new "fixed" 8600 GPUs.

 

[Freewayjim]

An associate at my local Apple store said that the 17" MBP's they now sell were recently built as they all had just arrived with the new MB & MBP's and the previous 17" MBP models that were in stock were shipped back to Apple.

That being said I would assume, Ok make that hope, the Nvidia 8600 cards in these "updated" 17" models would be OK, would Apple knowingly put a faulty piece of equipment in a $2799 Laptop?

 

[snowmoon]

When I was at the genius bar for an unrelated issue someone came in with this problem...

motherboard on these models are back ordered more than a week so hope you don't need it for anything critical.

 

[bartzilla]

The Apple Tech Support I visited in Rotterdam yesterday told me that it wasn't really a hardware problem but a software problem which should be solved by Nvidia and that while playing CoD4 under Mac OS X the 8600m GT is only used at 70 - 80%. In Bootcamp XP isn't scaled down and runs at full speed causing the temperature to rise quite quickly. Is Nvidia working on a new patch or do they focus all their attention on the new MBP in stead ?.

Wow. What a breathtaking lie they fed you there.

Any software patch that gets produced, if such a thing happens at all, will perhaps throttle back the abilities of the chip in an effort to stop it getting too hot too quickly.

You can't fix a fundamental hardware design flaw in software, any more than running poorly written software on a computer with a more expensive CPU will somehow make the bugs go away. All you can do is make it less likely that the conditions that turn the flaw into a failed computer are provoked.

 

[KeenMetal]

I've got a SR MBP from mid 2007, and didn't bother with extending the warranty. At some point flash videos from sites like youtube started flickering and after a week or two, the screen quit on me.
I showed an Apple Service Provider this article from Apple's website to help things along and got the logic board replaced within a few days - for free!

Do you know if they replaced it with another 8600?

Yes, they basically replace all logic boards with identical models, though hopefully without the same flaw...

 

[Zw42a]

Do you know if they replaced it with another 8600?

Yes, I got a new 8600M GT. I feel a bit uneasy about it but I think these new ones are okay.

They also cleaned the inside and now my MBP feels like new!

The new challange is to get AppleCare now, because I'm not in the market for these new MBPs (glossy???). Since I almost got a complete new MBP maybe I can fix something.

 

[bushbaby]

I've got a SR MBP from mid 2007, and didn't bother with extending the warranty. At some point flash videos from sites like youtube started flickering and after a week or two, the screen quit on me.
I showed an Apple Service Provider this article from Apple's website to help things along and got the logic board replaced within a few days - for free!

Yes, they basically replace all logic boards with identical models, though hopefully without the same flaw...

Thanks, KeenMetal. And because nvidia is not being forthcoming about the manufacturing dates, it's unclear whether they did deal with the flaw in gpus labeled 8600. I read somewhere that they are renaming the 8600s to another number. Unclear if that designated those gpus have addressed the flaw.

Apple is not making any statement that their refurbs and clearance mpbs have been changed for new fixed gpus. Since they are letting the new machines bought in 08 before the new mbps released this week, my guess is that the majority if not all of the refurbs and clearance have the old, unchanged 8600 problem.

Posting this for the newcomers to the board considering buying a refurb or clearance mbp with this problem:

"A lawsuit filed in a California court on Tuesday alleges Nvidia concealed the existence of a serious defect in its graphics-chip line for at least eight months 'in a series of false and misleading statements made to the investing public.' The lawsuit contends that Nvidia CEO Jen-Hsun Huang and CFO Marvin Burkett knew as early as November 2007 about a flaw that exists in the packaging used with some of the company's graphics chips that caused them to fail at unusually high rates. Nvidia publicly acknowledged the flaw on July 2, when it announced plans to take a one-time charge of up to $200 million to cover warranty costs related to the problem. That announcement caused Nvidia's stock price to fall by 31 percent to $12.98 and reduced the company's market capitalization by $3 billion, the lawsuit said. The lawsuit seeks class-action status against Nvidia and unspecified damages."

 

[Phrasikleia]

"A lawsuit filed in a California court on Tuesday alleges Nvidia concealed the existence of a serious defect in its graphics-chip line for at least eight months 'in a series of false and misleading statements made to the investing public.' The lawsuit contends that Nvidia CEO Jen-Hsun Huang and CFO Marvin Burkett knew as early as November 2007 about a flaw that exists in the packaging used with some of the company's graphics chips that caused them to fail at unusually high rates. Nvidia publicly acknowledged the flaw on July 2, when it announced plans to take a one-time charge of up to $200 million to cover warranty costs related to the problem. That announcement caused Nvidia's stock price to fall by 31 percent to $12.98 and reduced the company's market capitalization by $3 billion, the lawsuit said. The lawsuit seeks class-action status against Nvidia and unspecified damages."

What really amazes me about this is that they not only concealed the existence of the defect, but they apparently did nothing to stop it, either. If they knew about it in November of 2007, then why are MacBook Pros from the "Early 2008" generation also failing?? Those laptops came out three months later!! How could the NVidia executives just let the bad material set continue? Incredible!

 

[Romanesq]

well, well...

Thanks, KeenMetal. And because nvidia is not being forthcoming about the manufacturing dates, it's unclear whether they did deal with the flaw in gpus labeled 8600. I read somewhere that they are renaming the 8600s to another number. Unclear if that designated those gpus have addressed the flaw.

Apple is not making any statement that their refurbs and clearance mpbs have been changed for new fixed gpus. Since they are letting the new machines bought in 08 before the new mbps released this week, my guess is that the majority if not all of the refurbs and clearance have the old, unchanged 8600 problem.

Posting this for the newcomers to the board considering buying a refurb or clearance mbp with this problem:

"A lawsuit filed in a California court on Tuesday alleges Nvidia concealed the existence of a serious defect in its graphics-chip line for at least eight months 'in a series of false and misleading statements made to the investing public.' The lawsuit contends that Nvidia CEO Jen-Hsun Huang and CFO Marvin Burkett knew as early as November 2007 about a flaw that exists in the packaging used with some of the company's graphics chips that caused them to fail at unusually high rates. Nvidia publicly acknowledged the flaw on July 2, when it announced plans to take a one-time charge of up to $200 million to cover warranty costs related to the problem. That announcement caused Nvidia's stock price to fall by 31 percent to $12.98 and reduced the company's market capitalization by $3 billion, the lawsuit said. The lawsuit seeks class-action status against Nvidia and unspecified damages."

Nvidia is in deep doo doo. $200 million is not going to help much. The loss today in their stock value must really hurt.

 

[Atomic Ed]

What really amazes me about this is that they not only concealed the existence of the defect, but they apparently did nothing to stop it, either. If they knew about it in November of 2007, then why are MacBook Pros from the "Early 2008" generation also failing?? Those laptops came out three months later!! How could the NVidia executives just let the bad material set continue? Incredible!

Its incredible to think companies do this but I would place money it was the CFO behind the whole thing. Thinking the issue would sneak by they could keep their low cost assembly process. This whole thing wreaks of accountants over engineering to me. The CEO must have obviously went along with it as well. To me this is criminal without exception and Nvidia would do well to put those two behind bars or at the very least fire them both without compensation.

 

[JavaWizKid]

So the life expectancy of my MBP is 3 years if I buy Apple Care? Also won't Apple get into trouble with the law since they are still selling the 8600 in the 17" model of the MBP??? It is unclear if Nvidia has fixed anything. So what is true?

 

[Phrasikleia]

So the life expectancy of my MBP is 3 years if I buy Apple Care? Also won't Apple get into trouble with the law since they are still selling the 8600 in the 17" model of the MBP??? It is unclear if Nvidia has fixed anything. So what is true?

There is supposedly a "Rev. 2" model of the 8600 that came out in October of 2008. Presumably that is what current 17" models have in them.

If you have AppleCare, you should be covered for 3 years, yes. But if your GPU should die and get replaced near the end of that period, then you'll probably be good for at least a year longer (maybe more if the "Rev. 2" cards really are flawless).

 

[Romanesq]

Ah, that hope thing...

I've got a SR MBP from mid 2007, and didn't bother with extending the warranty. At some point flash videos from sites like youtube started flickering and after a week or two, the screen quit on me.
I showed an Apple Service Provider this article from Apple's website to help things along and got the logic board replaced within a few days - for free!


Yes, they basically replace all logic boards with identical models, though hopefully without the same flaw...

Yes indeed, that old hope thing. Peace, land, bread.... those that know....

 

[RHD]

It's possible, but since the 17" have been reboxed; also since NVIDIA has corrected the issue, if the 17" was made after September, there shouldn't be an issue. Nonetheles congrats on the computer.

Please link to your source for the statement that Nvidea have corrected it because I've seen no guarrantee anywhere that they have reconfigured their entire production line for this chip.

 

[bartzilla]

How could the NVidia executives just let the bad material set continue? Incredible!

Read. Think about the fact that that the link I've given you is talking about human lives yet still those decisions were made.

 

[Phrasikleia]

Please link to your source for the statement that Nvidea have corrected it because I've seen no guarrantee anywhere that they have reconfigured their entire production line for this chip.

What do you mean by that last bit? Why would they need to reconfigure their entire product line?

As for the existence of a "Rev. 2" 8600M GT, the evidence is mostly anecdotal. Here are some posts about it on Apple discussions:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=8281253&#8281253