Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
If not, why the heck isn't anyone screaming bloody murder over this? (All I keep seeing for Lion are 5-star reviews.)

Well for some people they're Apple fantatics and will blindly overlook any problems with the new OS simply because it is the new Apple OS.

For others like myself, you laundry list of complaints don't bother me. I was running Snow leopard previously so no issue there. Front Row? What's that? Seriously though I have never used it since I stream content with PS3mediaserver. Rosetta apps? I don't use any as I try to keep current with the apps I use. Blu-ray? I have a PS3 for watching blu-rays on a big tv. I really couldn't care less if I could watch them on my Mac Pro. So for me, I would give Lion 4 or 5 stars for sure.

But what I'm really curious about is this: do you have a gun to your head? Is the triggerman forcing you to install Lion against your will? If not, why the rant? It seems to me that Snow Leopard will suit your needs perfectly so why be so concerned with running Lion?
 
What bothers me, on this forum, is how many people nowadays take criticism directed at Apple personally, even if it is perfectly valid.

In this case, the OP is the one who seems to be taking Apple's business decisions personally.

Again, for me, :apple:TV2 > plugging my MBP into the TV > :apple:TV1 > Front Row > anything else that came before. Thank you Apple for making it available and showing me there was a better way.

The reason that the vast majority of Mac users are not "screaming bloody murder" and are giving Lion good reviews is that we aren't taking it personally and are adapting to the changes.

Some however resist change with every bone in their bodies as evidenced by Thread 500 and reactions like this.

These are the same folks who insist on running XP on modern hardware.

B
 
Am I the only one fed up with Apple and all of their dumb decisions? Is there something I have missed?

I -really- like this quote. And basically the rest of the thread answers your question to a T. There's really not much Apple can do wrong at this point when they have people like in this thread unquestioningly behind them.

That's right, I feel the need for some negs....
 
LOL! Thread 500!
Guys, I am not against change. I just won't buy just everything that's shiny and made by Apple.
Well, unfortunately that was a lie, as, unfortunately, I actually do.

But that doesn't mean I have to be happy with it if it's faulty, right?

Thread 500 is a great example, I've never understood how anyone would spend such a ridiculously high amount of money on an MP3 Player back then. Cool device, no doubt, but, really?
Reminds me of the MacBook Wheel.
History speaks for itself though, so I'll shut up here and now.
 
I -really- like this quote. And basically the rest of the thread answers your question to a T. There's really not much Apple can do wrong at this point when they have people like in this thread unquestioningly behind them.

Apple certainly does wrong and many of us here are the ones who will call them on it. We will also call out users who are stuck the past.

A concrete example of this was the call for Lion to be released in some form other than a MAS download.

Apple relented to both a USB thumb drive creator for the rescue partition and will be releasing the thumb drive version shortly.

If you don't like Lion (yet), don't upgrade. It's really that simple.

Just like the folks who complained loudly that they had $$$ invested in ADB peripherals when Apple transitioned to USB. Would you say that was a bad business or technological decision?


----------

But that doesn't mean I have to be happy with it if it's faulty, right?
"Faulty" in many cases is subjective.

Some might say the iPod's lack of Ogg Vorbis support was a fault, but in hindsight would YOU think it was?

The iPod's main strength was in its simple user experience that let you lose yourself in your music and forget you were using a piece of technology.

While the Time Capsule is beautifully functional for its intended purposes, but at least the first generation were predictably not reliable.

B
 
What bothers me, on this forum, is how many people nowadays take criticism directed at Apple personally, even if it is perfectly valid.
Scary, really. Whole thing starts bordering on religious fanaticism.

Love and peace, guys! ;)
I agree! I love Apple products and have plenty of them in my house adn will continue to buy them! I will get an iPhone 5 for my wife when it comes out. BUT i am not under the assumption they don't make mistakes... Just look at all of the problems people are having with Lion. Look at the forums here on MR. then checkout of pro Apple forums and then checkout the Apple support forums.
Lion could turn out to be Apples Vista! On my MBP my battery went from 7 hours to 3 hours.......used Lion for a week then wiped and went back to SL..... and will stay with SL until Apple releases an update to fix the issues.
 
Last edited:
macdonald79, I agree with you completely. My dad uses an iMac from 2007/8. Now, 3-4 years later, it's still trucking along splendidly. In a year or two, when he upgrades, what am I going to tell him? A $700 underpowered mini + monitor? Or $1500 for an iMac plus new software. No. Instead he'll probably buy a Windows 8 PC, connect it to his 48" TV, watch blu-rays off of it, and use his software from before he "switched"

There's just no way to justify buying Apple anymore when Windows is "good enough" and Apple is lacking so much.

But that's just me, but I value features like CD drives over market value ;)
 
"Faulty" in many cases is subjective.

Some might say the iPod's lack of Ogg Vorbis support was a fault, but in hindsight would YOU think it was?

The iPod's main strength was in its simple user experience that let you lose yourself in your music and forget you were using a piece of technology

I totally agree with you on that!
"Faulty" ceases being subjective and becomes suddenly quite objective when it causes your machine to freeze, though, I think you'll agree with me on that, too... :cool:

Like I said in another thread, I just think Apple are growing too big too fast right now. They'll get their stuff sorted, but right now, it doesn't necessarily all "just work". And I wish those for whom it still "just works" wouldn't give thumbs down to all the poor souls out here who are less lucky. That's all I'm sayin...
 
=======
Wow. I've always heard the jokes about anti-social computer nerds (Apple nerds especially), but I had no idea...


Valuable Company: So what if Apple makes a lot of money? So does/did Microsoft, but few would claim they are purveyors of fine, quality products. (See: XBOX 360)

Don't Buy A Mac: Was that really necessary? Obviously, I want to use a Mac, that's why I signed up on a web site called MacRumors.com

Quit Whining: I'm not allowed to criticize Apple? I'm not allowed to even speak of Apple unless I fawning over Steve Jobs: The Greatest Human Being Who Has Ever Lived? Says who? You—whoever you are?

Blu-ray: Are you trying to suggest that Sony refuses to allow the Mac to support Blu-ray movies? Because, what, they don't want money from Apple users? And here I was thinking that Apple was trying to eliminate competition by forcing people to use iTMS for movie downloads instead of buying proper HD movies.

Progress: Guys, you're missing the point. My 2004 copy of MS Word works perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with it. I have a Windows 7 PC running MS Word from the same year, so why can't my new Mac do the same? Modern software is just getting worse and worse with every subsequent "upgrade." Yet, I'm expected to keep doling out money for a crummier version of a product I already own. Remember when Apple "improved" iMovie by removing features so it wouldn't compete with their FinalCut Express app? Yeah, that's progress alright.

PC Perfection: I never said anything about Windows PCs. I hate Windows. In fact, I alluded to this in my OP when I said, "Get a Mac."

Seriously, I've only been on this site for an hour and I've already received a barrage of angry invective that would make Bill O'Reily cringe.


P.S. Somebody actually bothered to answer one of my questions by informing me that I can install Lion--in a needlessly convoluted fashion--without Snow Leopard, so thank you for that.

P.P.S. Oh wait, you called me "ignorant." Nevermind.

You join forums to ask questions and get opinions. Some answers may not be as per your liking, especially if your question is as stupid as it is in this thread. Just because you didn't like the response you received doesn't mean you have to have the last word.
 
What bothers me, on this forum, is how many people nowadays take criticism directed at Apple personally, even if it is perfectly valid.
Scary, really. Whole thing starts bordering on religious fanaticism.

Love and peace, guys! ;)

None of you even believe people are not having issues with Lion. It's the people who attack the people "taking it personally" that have the real issue. Who even corrects rudely and picks a fight over a computer forum anyway per a question that has nothing to do with it? No thread ever stays to the question and opinion/fact responses. They all end up in -you suck, no you suck, no you suck more- arguments. Accept it: Lion works for people. The reviews are in writing. We know it. We don't need to know that you don't believe ours are working fine because you're pissed your Mac is screwed up now. Move on and go back to asking and answering questions. Or get Windows and deal with them.
 
Free exchange of ideas?

I saw a post here that recommended another forum and now it seems to be gone. Am I imagining things? Is this a forum for the free exchange of ideas or is big brother watching?

Without going to specific arguments, I bought my iMac because I got tired of having PC's die on me. It would be nice if backward software compatibility mirrored the long life I expect to get out of Apple hardware.

BTW On the issue of corporate success, I own AAPL stock and I certainly never anticipate a bump when Lion or a new desktop comes out. The iPhones are what drives the train. :)
 
I saw a post here that recommended another forum and now it seems to be gone. Am I imagining things? Is this a forum for the free exchange of ideas or is big brother watching?

Without going to specific arguments, I bought my iMac because I got tired of having PC's die on me. It would be nice if backward software compatibility mirrored the long life I expect to get out of Apple hardware.

BTW On the issue of corporate success, I own AAPL stock and I certainly never anticipate a bump when Lion or a new desktop comes out. The iPhones are what drives the train. :)

It's still there. (Assuming this was the one you meant.)

I'm sorry macdonald79--Apple's changing, and the Apple fans are changing right alongside. In fact, ten years ago if you told me that arguments about why the stock price proves why any company is right, I would have assumed it was a Microsoft person trolling Mc message boards.

I'd suggest checking out Macintouch--the people there are more capable of engaging with these things without bile, acrimony, and they have a better memory for the recent past.
 
Blu-ray: Are you trying to suggest that Sony refuses to allow the Mac to support Blu-ray movies? Because, what, they don't want money from Apple users? And here I was thinking that Apple was trying to eliminate competition by forcing people to use iTMS for movie downloads instead of buying proper HD movies.

Progress: Guys, you're missing the point. My 2004 copy of MS Word works perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with it. I have a Windows 7 PC running MS Word from the same year, so why can't my new Mac do the same? Modern software is just getting worse and worse with every subsequent "upgrade." Yet, I'm expected to keep doling out money for a crummier version of a product I already own. Remember when Apple "improved" iMovie by removing features so it wouldn't compete with their FinalCut Express app? Yeah, that's progress alright.

You realize the irony of calling out everyone when you yourself have done nothing but derogate all that have responded (and have chosen to disagree with you)?

Blu-ray: Jobs called Blu-ray a "bag of hurt" Read more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/jul/01/apple-jobs-blu-ray-rejection

What's more to say? Apple doesn't see it as a viable inclusion in their product line. And considering they are making record sales in each and every quarter (while others in the PC market are seeing steady declines), I think they have a pretty idea on what the people want.

Progress: Because Microsoft products have always been designed to run on similar architectures (i386) from day one. Apple had to drastically change everything from PPC to i386. That wasn't easy and I think they did a commendable job. And again, how long do you think they should maintain support for an obsolete arch? When you're ready to pony up the dough for a new copy of MS Office?

----------

1. Inside the Lion download is an install ESD which you can restore to a thumbdrive or firewire hard drive to install a fresh copy.

I just wanted to chime in on this one. Any new machine (tested on a new 2011 Mac Mini) that comes with Lion pre-installed cannot use this method. The machine's UDID is registered with Apple and it requires either the use of the recovery partition, the usb recovery tool, or the internet recovery system to install Lion.

I called an Apple tech to confirm this. Using the DMG method will fail on a generic error.
 
- I can only download Mac OS Lion
- I need Show Leopard in order to upgrade because that's the only other OS with the app store functionality required to download Lion
- If I don't have Snow Leopard, I must purchase and install it in order to upgrade to Lion
- They've eliminated Front Row so as to make Apple TV more enticing
- They've also eliminated Rosetta meaning my more than capable copy of MS Office 2004 must be upgraded to the whatever bloated piece junk M$ is now selling.
- Blu-ray is still a "big bag of hurt"

...I haven't really been following Apple news religiously, like I once did. So when my mom asked me to choose a new computer for her, I naturally said, "Get a Mac." I figured I would get her a used Mac Mini and upgrade to the latest OS. I couldn't believe it when I started reading about all of the "improvements" Apple has made. (Not to mention the all new Mac Mini sans-optical drive).

Am I the only one fed up with Apple and all of their dumb decisions? Is there something I have missed? Is this all just one big misunderstanding on my part? Seriously, if there are alternatives I'm simply unaware of, please me know.

If not, why the heck isn't anyone screaming bloody murder over this? (All I keep seeing for Lion are 5-star reviews.)
>2011
> Still using 2004 Microsoft Office, but wants Blu ray :eek:
> That make sense
> I seriously hope you guys don't do this!
I recommend you buying a Dell laptop with Windows 7 Ultimate and running Microsoft office 2004 for your mama brah!
PS: Welcome to 2011 soon 2012 with full of new technologies!
 
I do agree with you, it makes no sense, but debating this on this site is rather useless, and 90% here will defend whatever useless functions Jobs throws at them.
 
i think there are no reason for protecting apple.
lets think for what is best for US, consumers.

the think i dont like about fanboy is that they are thinking too much about what good for the company. they just delete a code let you use less, just like a pack of 100g chocolate in 20 blocks replaced 80g chocolate with same old 20 blocks. why would you be happy if they are selling at same price?

why not use an old software when its still efficient?
I use text edit daily, i would be mad if apple think its too old and cut it out of osx.
 
just like a pack of 100g chocolate in 20 blocks replaced 80g chocolate with same old 20 blocks. why would you be happy if they are selling at same price?

This analogy doesn't "fit" IMHO. For foods in particular the price to the customer is largely driven by the cost of the raw ingredients that go into it. When the cost of cacao and oil go up the cost to get that chocolate bar on your store's shelf goes up. If the choice is now that you pay 20% more for the chocolate bar or the chocolate bar gets 20% smaller, which do you choose?

Software is no different. Maintaining features is a real cost to the developer, mainly in testing.

Apple has followed a model of providing backwards compatibility in a sandbox. Classic, Rosetta. Microsoft finally adopted this model with "Xp Mode" in Windows 7. They soon will be facing their own architecture shift as Windows 8 will also run on ARM. Will XP Mode be supported on ARM? Would you really want to run Office 2003 on a brand spanking new W8 ARM-based tablet?

Do I wish they had provided some official way of dealing with PPC and Classic apps in Lion? Sure! However not at the expense of all the new features. It's not that hard to get Snow Leopard working in a VM even though that is not supported or licensed that way.

why not use an old software when its still efficient?
I use text edit daily, i would be mad if apple think its too old and cut it out of osx.

Again, just as with the OP. If a feature is useful/important to you and they have decided to no longer support or include it no one is taking away what you have now. Don't upgrade to the version that removes your feature.

HyperTerminal is an extremely useful tool that for many years shipped with Windows and no longer does since Vista. So I have the choice to either look for a third party alternative or run XP. No big deal.

B
 
Again, just as with the OP. If a feature is useful/important to you and they have decided to no longer support or include it no one is taking away what you have now. Don't upgrade to the version that removes your feature.


B

You don't always know it won't work in the new version, as many found out [insert application or whatever here] doesn't work in Lion anymore after they upgraded. Upgrades lead people to believe things will be better, not different.
 
This analogy doesn't "fit" IMHO. For foods in particular the price to the customer is largely driven by the cost of the raw ingredients that go into it. When the cost of cacao and oil go up the cost to get that chocolate bar on your store's shelf goes up. If the choice is now that you pay 20% more for the chocolate bar or the chocolate bar gets 20% smaller, which do you choose?

Software is no different. Maintaining features is a real cost to the developer, mainly in testing.

Apple has followed a model of providing backwards compatibility in a sandbox. Classic, Rosetta. Microsoft finally adopted this model with "Xp Mode" in Windows 7. They soon will be facing their own architecture shift as Windows 8 will also run on ARM. Will XP Mode be supported on ARM? Would you really want to run Office 2003 on a brand spanking new W8 ARM-based tablet?

Do I wish they had provided some official way of dealing with PPC and Classic apps in Lion? Sure! However not at the expense of all the new features. It's not that hard to get Snow Leopard working in a VM even though that is not supported or licensed that way.



Again, just as with the OP. If a feature is useful/important to you and they have decided to no longer support or include it no one is taking away what you have now. Don't upgrade to the version that removes your feature.

HyperTerminal is an extremely useful tool that for many years shipped with Windows and no longer does since Vista. So I have the choice to either look for a third party alternative or run XP. No big deal.

B


Exactly .... Some folks are just not good with making adjustments.


You don't always know it won't work in the new version, as many found out [insert application or whatever here] doesn't work in Lion anymore after they upgraded. Upgrades lead people to believe things will be better, not different.

Is it really Apple's or Microsoft's job to make sure every single program/app under sun is compatible with a completely new OS upgrade? The amount of apps that don't function with Lion compared to the ones that still do is a very small percentage. And just because someone refuses to upgrade an app over 5 years old doesn't mean a new OS has to cater to it.
 
Last edited:
People keep telling you to just stay away from Lion or even from a Mac if you're not happy.

But I totally understand what your intentions are. I remember the time when installing a new OS X version was like giving new life to an old Mac. Actually, going from Leopard to SL was an amazing experience. I remember seeing my Mac perform a lot faster and as a bonus, SL gave me some GB back.

So buying an old used Mac and installing the very last OS X available used to be a great idea. Apparently, many of the people who have replied to your thread don't know this or have an unlimited flow of cash to spend on new hardware (and software).

I'll try to be a better citizen with your concerns:

- I can only download Mac OS Lion
This seems to be the case for the time being. As it has been "kindly" explained by other macrumors members, Lion will be available later on physical support.

I have an unlimited fast connexion, so no worries from this side, but I can definitely understand your concern. I think some people on this forum have never heard of download caps or slow Internet speeds.

- I need Show Leopard in order to upgrade because that's the only other OS with the app store functionality required to download Lion
Again, that's the case, at least for now.

- If I don't have Snow Leopard, I must purchase and install it in order to upgrade to Lion
Not really, provided that you have a friend with a Mac and Snow Leopard. You may login to your account and buy a copy of Lion. Then copy to a pendrive and use it to install Lion.

I heard about people going to an Apple Store and downloading the installer from there. I don't know if the stories are true.

- They've eliminated Front Row so as to make Apple TV more enticing
I never actually liked Front Row and I probably used it 2 or 3 times and then forgot about it. I started using Plex a long time ago and then switched to XBMC. These are very sophisticated programs, far more powerful than Front Row.

On the other hand, again, I understand your concern, especially if your mother will be using this computer. Thera are lots of macs in my family and I am the only one "savvy" enough to deal with any of those softwares. They require some work, when Front Row works out of the box and integrates seamlessly with iTunes.

Also, I don't think Plex or XBMC or Boxee can play DRMed videos bought through iTunes.

- They've also eliminated Rosetta meaning my more than capable copy of MS Office 2004 must be upgraded to the whatever bloated piece junk M$ is now selling.

Again, I do not have this problem since my University payed for Office 2011 when it came out. But I see exactly what you mean. I don't actually do anything more or better with Office 2011 than I used to do with older versions. The FINAL PRODUCT produced by these softwares is still the same. Word, Excel and PPT documents. And I bet none of these friendly posters on this thread will be willing to help you pay the $150 for a student license or the $280 for the business license.

People may say what they want about "progress" and all but being an engineer myself, I would like to know a TECHNICAL reason behind the exclusion of Rosetta.

Lion's own dictionary defines progress as "forward or onward movement towards a destination". I really don't see where the definition of progress involves that you need to stop using your regular tools to attain your goal. Rosetta could have been provided as an optional download, as it was the case for SL. This would result in no harm at all to all of you so "advanced" users that claim that you need to buy every new version of software that comes out to be able to continue working and to produce "progress".

- Blu-ray is still a "big bag of hurt"

I'm with you on this one too. I have a Mac mini connected to my HD TV and I really wish it supported Blu-ray. Instead, I had to buy a separate player from panasonic.

Am I the only one fed up with Apple and all of their dumb decisions? Is there something I have missed? Is this all just one big misunderstanding on my part? Seriously, if there are alternatives I'm simply unaware of, please me know.
I'm not exactly "fed up" and I'm sure that these people at Apple know exactly what they're doing. They may seem dumb decisions for people like you and me but they make a lot of sense from the point of view of market penetration and profit.

What you call "alternatives" may come in the form of additional third-party software. Some of it (maybe all) carry free licenses.

As a matter of fact, I happen to like Lion. I got used to the new "features" quite fast and as opposed to many people on this forum, I kind of like Mission Control (some call it Mission Impossible) even though I was a heavy Spaces and Exposé user.

Fortunately I haven't had any of the problems that other people are having but I will certainly not bash them because they ask questions about them or report them here. Making those concerns public is the only way for some people to learn how to deal with change or to eventually produce changes to improve software.

And by the way, complaining about the things that you don't like, letting other people know about the problems and discussing whatever negative thing that may be a part of a new OS is what eventually leads to improvements and yes my friends... it also leads to progress.

Cheers !
 
Progress: Because Microsoft products have always been designed to run on similar architectures (i386) from day one. Apple had to drastically change everything from PPC to i386. That wasn't easy and I think they did a commendable job. And again, how long do you think they should maintain support for an obsolete arch? When you're ready to pony up the dough for a new copy of MS Office

The thing is, Apple has the program compatability layer for rosetta software. They just choose not to include it, which is what annoys people.
 
=======
Quit Whining: I'm not allowed to criticize Apple? I'm not allowed to even speak of Apple unless I fawning over Steve Jobs: The Greatest Human Being Who Has Ever Lived? Says who? You—whoever you are?
.

Good point.
Sometimes I'm afraid to post any doubt here because of these "Steve Jobs' super-duper-fans"...
Its like you dont even have permission to not know everything. You MUST know everything...

Come on guys. NOT EVERYONE SPEND ALL DAY IN FRONT OF THE COMPUTER READING APPLE NEWS. There's a world out there...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.