So let me get this straight...

[srf4real]

Sorry about all the flamers MacDonald, you have to understand that ever since the iPod came out there have been thousands of new forum members who don't even know the difference between a computer and their toys.. and couldn't afford a mac if you gave them half off.. due to their iPods and iPhones surfing the web freely nowadays these folks will continue to be inclined to contribute their worthless prose about real topics like computer ease of use and software compatibility whilst knowing nothing of it.

I am somewhat of your point of view, although a true mac fanboy circa 1998......

I have been feeling more and more inconvenienced by Apple in recent years although I have loved the computer experience and am grateful for all those years that I was enabled to be Windows XP free. It does seem that our beloved leader Jobs does not mind inconveniencing his followers for the sake of further profit and growth. As a public company they are what every investor dreams of, yes. As a service provider they are losing my enthusiasm, the more my options become limited to only exactly what Apple deems fit.

 

[JRoDDz]

Windows 7 is quite capable now. Buy a cheap PC with Windows on it. Problem solved. There's no need for this "I only want a Mac" or "I only want Windows" mentality. In today's world it's ok to have multiple operating systems. I happen to have a handful of Windows 7 PC's and a couple of Mac OSX PC's. They work well together. If I can only have 1 computer? That's a tough one. I would have to say Windows since I can have blu-ray and gaming is way better on Windows.

 

[ctbear]

Windows 7 is quite capable now. Buy a cheap PC with Windows on it. Problem solved. There's no need for this "I only want a Mac" or "I only want Windows" mentality. In today's world it's ok to have multiple operating systems. I happen to have a handful of Windows 7 PC's and a couple of Mac OSX PC's. They work well together. If I can only have 1 computer? That's a tough one. I would have to say Windows since I can have blu-ray and gaming is way better on Windows.

Why the down votes on this post? Windows 7 is an amazing OS.

 

[Corridore]

When I got my Macbook several years ago, I thought that Apple was a great company who really cared about their customers. But, at least in my opinion, they have gone downhill. I have to agree with you on this, MacDonald. Some of the things that they do right now are really annoying, such as having to buy Snow Leopard simply to go to Lion or getting rid of the Macbook. I'm probably going to replace my iPhone and Macbook next year when I start college. Thought I would stay with Apple, but I'm going to have to take a closer look when the time comes at other avenues.

And, I have to agree with you on how some people view Steve Jobs as a God. I think this is an accurate portrayal of some of the people who buy Apple products.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zgN0-jTvZY

 

[QuarterSwede]

... how long do you think they should maintain support for an obsolete arch? When you're ready to pony up the dough for a new copy of MS Office?

Oh SNAP!

Can't put it more succinctly than that.

I do have to agree. I was running Office 2004 when I decided to upgrade to Lion. Instead of whining about how a 7 year old sluggish app that ran in Rosetta on SL would no longer run I bought Pages and am looking at a Spreadsheet app. If I were an Outlook junkie (thankfully I don't need to be) I would've just bought Office 2011 which, by the way the trial was, ran much, much better than 2004.

I seriously think people come on MacRumors just to complain and then complain that people that give them the answers they don't want are deep throating Jobs. There are some people that berate OPs sure but no one 100% agrees with Apple's decisions all the time, not even LTD.

 

[Taz Mangus]

I agree! I love Apple products and have plenty of them in my house adn will continue to buy them! I will get an iPhone 5 for my wife when it comes out. BUT i am not under the assumption they don't make mistakes... Just look at all of the problems people are having with Lion. Look at the forums here on MR. then checkout of pro Apple forums and then checkout the Apple support forums.
Lion could turn out to be Apples Vista! On my MBP my battery went from 7 hours to 3 hours.......used Lion for a week then wiped and went back to SL..... and will stay with SL until Apple releases an update to fix the issues.

Are you going by the time reported on the battery indication or actual time that the battery lasted before it shutdown? Try a SMC reset and see if the battery status goes back to where it was. I did a SMC reset and I am now seeing about 7 hours of battery life with Lion installed.

 

[jamezr]

Are you going by the time reported on the battery indication or actual time that the battery lasted before it shutdown? Try a SMC reset and see if the battery status goes back to where it was. I did a SMC reset and I am now seeing about 7 hours of battery life with Lion installed.

Thanks Taz... I did all things they suggested in all the support forums I could read..... I did do the SMC reset and the battery calibration...checking the activity monitor to see what apps were running in the background.... all for naught. But I will give Lion a try again after they release an update to fix the issues. My MBP also was getting extremely hot as well. So iam sure Apple will address the issues in their own time..

 

[stevemiller]

there's lots that i like about my mac, but there is also plenty that annoys the heck outta me, too. but with most things these days, there are trade-offs that will hurt you more than others and you just have to weight the personal pro's and con's in making a decision.

i think some helpful advice was provided in the direction of how you will be able to obtain a physical copy of lion minus the self-service discounted price of the app store. as well as some free/inexpensive alternatives for lost functionality in legacy software. but personally, the people who just reduce a situation to "if you don't like something you must be dumb/adverse to change" just make my skin crawl.

many of us frustrated by certain things represent admittedly niche cases, but just because a problem doesn't affect the majority doesn't mean the minority's issues are not real, genuinely problematic to our needs, and deserving of at least some discussion to find solutions or work arounds.

 

[Icaras]

Yes. Which makes it needlessly convoluted to install if I don't have Snow Leopard. Guys, what are you not understanding here? They took something that worked perfectly fine (optical media, full install) and made it worse.

To me, it seems obvious you're the one not understanding things here. Many here have already said it: Progress.

So I guess by your Logic, we should never transition to electric cars in the future, right? The whole infrastructure of gas powered cars works perfectly fine (save for the rising gas prices...), so lets just stay where we are and never push for newer technologies.

Ugh! Are you kidding me?

Why are you defending Apple's bottom-line? Their actions are are anti-consumer and anti-competitive. You're a customer, you should be mad as hell for them pulling a stunt like this. Especially considering digital downloads are inferior to the product they are trying to supplant (Blu-rays, optical media).

Don't stuff your opinions down other people's throats. I am not mad in the slightest in Apple's move to ditch the optical drive. If Apple won't do blu-ray, then I say let it go. Thanks to a non-ODD mini, we now have the option for for dual internal drives and discreet graphics! The mini is now all of a sudden a little powerhouse for professionals, prosumers, and even gamers. I say, thank you Apple!

Did you even consider that? That's what happens when you think about yourself only. Consumers all have different needs. Your need is easily remedied with the external superdrive, so no need to complain and hurt other consumers wants because of your selfish desires.

And by the way, what is anti-competitive about it? What's stopping you from buying a PC with an optical disc drive? Or, if you still want a Mac, get a copy of Windows to bootcamp and buy an external blu-ray drive. Before complaining so much, you should explore all your options.

 

[eternalife]

Man, I'm all about sucking the life out of every drop of usefulness from your software but 7 years? Come on. I'm a recent convert to the Mac and the main reason for me is the very reason you don't like them. I've gotten so tired of dragging around the legacy boat anchor called Windows. Because of their large corporate footprint they have to maintain a large degree of backwards compatibility. This in turn hurts their product. Even with Windows 7 (which is a fairly nice OS - on the surface) it's extremely bloated and over time becomes painfully slow. I will gladly trade in my 'old' software for an ever changing non-bloated OS that forces me to stay in-step.

I've been very vocal about the unnecessary (IMO) eye-candy features of Lion but to say they should keep around software that supports technology that is so archaic just so we don't have to upgrade is absurd. I for one am glad Apple forces us to change even if I don't agree with all of their changes.

 

[Icaras]

Because of their large corporate footprint they have to maintain a large degree of backwards compatibility.

I definitely agree with this. Microsoft will forever be shackled down with the way in which they've built and structured Windows because of their dominance in market share, especially in their corporate and enterprise customers.

Apple on the other hand can enjoy their roughly 10% market share of Mac OS and freely push newer technologies while ditching dated ones without the penalties of having such a large and demanding customer base.

 

[Skoal]

if their decisions are so dumb why is Apple the most valuable company in the world?

Cigarette's are horribly stupid and bad for you yet they make billions a year for their companies.

 

[DarkestRitual]

Yes. Which makes it needlessly convoluted to install if I don't have Snow Leopard. Guys, what are you not understanding here? They took something that worked perfectly fine (optical media, full install) and made it worse.

optical media is nice in a pinch, but has been a dying technology since 2004 or so. you can still burn Lion to a disc, as I did. You can also make a bootable USB key, or pay a 40 dollar premium to have one made for you (if you're really that lazy).

Again, that would require me to purchase new software to replace the perfectly fine app I already have. In fact, the upgrade will be worse than what I already have. But whatever.

Libre/Open Office are.... =-O FREE. Office 2011 is a much better product than office 2004 was. This is coming from a Mac lifer using since system 7. Rosetta was nice. I think they probably could have included it in this OS, but they were trying to trim down size, and succeeded. The OS is a whopping 3.5GB. SL was about 6.

Why are you defending Apple's bottom-line? Their actions are are anti-consumer and anti-competitive. You're a customer, you should be mad as hell for them pulling a stunt like this. Especially considering digital downloads are inferior to the product they are trying to supplant (Blu-rays, optical media).

How, tell me, how, are their actions anti-consumer? Anti-competitive maybe with their injunctions against Samsung and the war on Android, but a company has to protect their assets and interests. You'd be a fool to think otherwise, or at the very least somebody who is naïvely idealistic. Apple sells streaming video and downloaded video. Is the picture true 1080p? No. Do you really need 1080p video? If the answer is yes, go buy yourself a dedicated BluRay player. Not a difficult concept to swallow.

Yes, and many of us are not. I shouldn't have to install an upgrade to install an upgrade. Why can't you admit how absurd that is?

It isn't absurd. Their last two operating systems have been 30 dollars. Even if you bought both of them, the combined 60 dollars is less than half of the 130 that Leopard and all previous OSes were. You might also consider... waiting until they start selling the bootable flash drives. It's not their fault that you don't want to do the way that you could do it now or that you don't have 10.6 installed already. They made it pretty painless on your wallet to get to that point. Not their fault you didn't buy the last OS.

I don't think any pre-Snow Leopard user is exclusively using PPC apps. In fact. In my case, MS OFFICE is the only non-Intel app I'm using.

The majority of people who are still on Leopard are probably only still on Leopard because the machine running it is a PPC architecture. I have two x64 macs in my house and two PPC macs. Guess what OSes I run? 10.7 and 10.5.

Yes. Just because they bought it doesn't mean they like it.
And how many people wanted to upgrade, but couldn't?

Seriously? I mean, for real? Come on, how many people wanted to upgrade but couldn't? If they didn't install 10.6 (so this takes away all the PPC users, those left are those who bought a mac with 10.4 or 10.5 with an intel processor), what makes you think that they're all suddenly aware of 10.7 and now want to upgrade when they didn't before? If they have a core duo, then oh noes. They have to run 10.6, a damn fine OS. If they have a core 2, they can run 10.7. Not bad.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your concerns. I just think you're making too big a deal over too small a problem.

 

[Lokheed]

I definitely agree with this. Microsoft will forever be shackled down with the way in which they've built and structured Windows because of their dominance in market share, especially in their corporate and enterprise customers.

Apple on the other hand can enjoy their roughly 10% market share of Mac OS and freely push newer technologies while ditching dated ones without the penalties of having such a large and demanding customer base.

Apple also positions themselves a lot better to make those changes. Their small stature and userbase does help, but they also make much more strategic decisions.

They also benefit from being in total control, from the hardware right down to the software. That gives them tremendous power to push change and adapt swiftly.

 

[Taz Mangus]

Cigarette's are horribly stupid and bad for you yet they make billions a year for their companies.

Wow, simply WOW! That is a horribly stupid analogy.

 

[DarkestRitual]

Wow, simply WOW! That is a horribly stupid analogy.

hahaha, right? They've also been suffering losses to potential growth and more and more states and countries implement indoor smoking bans, but... you know... let the kid believe what he wants to.

 

[Taz Mangus]

hahaha, right? They've also been suffering losses to potential growth and more and more states and countries implement indoor smoking bans, but... you know... let the kid believe what he wants to.

So you are equating a product designed to kill people with a product that has a few bugs that will be fixed and has not ever killed anyone?

 

[saberahul]

In my case, I find office 2008 better than 2011. On the other hand, I find Pages '09 to be the best. My 2¢.

 

[MartiNZ]

So you are equating a product designed to kill people with a product that has a few bugs that will be fixed and has not ever killed anyone?

No I think the original comment was just trying to bring the thread down to Earth, pointing out how flawed the immediate jump to posting "highest value, how can they be bad decisions OMGWTFBBQ" (my final bit to fit modern Internet vernacular and for emphasis).

And no one is equating products, just the idea of 'value' of companies. They all make 'bad' decisions. If you listen to what the stocks say, I suppose those are the ones that make the value go down.

 

[sweetbrat]

but personally, the people who just reduce a situation to "if you don't like something you must be dumb/adverse to change" just make my skin crawl.

I understand that. It's the same for me, every time someone calls me a Jobsian, an Apple fanboy, etc. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you're adverse to change. Just because I do like something doesn't mean that I think Apple is perfect and never does anything wrong. I don't doubt that some people are having major problems with Lion. I'm not...I actually like Lion for the most part. But if I mention that, I get told that I'd take anything that Apple tries to shove down my throat because I can't think for myself. People on both sides are equally intolerant of the others viewpoint. So instead of discussion, you get bickering. And I'm absolutely not saying that you said anything intolerant...just pointing out that it goes both ways, and is equally annoying.

The truth is that nothing is ever going to be perfect for everyone. The OP hates that he has to download Lion. I like it, because it was easier for me than going to a store. The OP is angry because Rosetta is gone and his Office 2004 doesn't work. I upgraded to a new version of Office, and with the few Rosetta programs I had that couldn't easily be replaced, I made the decision to let them go. I wanted to upgrade to Lion, so I did. Is it perfect? Nope. But no one forced me to do it, either. Different people, different outlooks and opinions.

 

[fortheloveofmac]

Exactly .... Some folks are just not good with making adjustments.




Is it really Apple's or Microsoft's job to make sure every single program/app under sun is compatible with a completely new OS upgrade? The amount of apps that don't function with Lion compared to the ones that still do is a very small percentage. And just because someone refuses to upgrade an app over 5 years old doesn't mean a new OS has to cater to it.

Why do you people even argue when you're AGREEING with what you're quoting?

 

[srf4real]

Yeah and I'll say something else too, Lion boots fast as hell on a i7 quad chip with solid state drive. So do applications. The days when waiting is over are here. I'll take the progress, even if it means some sacrifices and changes to what I've become accustomed to. The new macs rock Lion, and they rock everything else. 'Nuff said.

 

[iThinkergoiMac]

- I can only download Mac OS Lion

No, you can buy it on a USB drive from Apple (physical store or online) for $69. It's way cheaper if you download, though.

- I need Show Leopard in order to upgrade because that's the only other OS with the app store functionality required to download Lion
- If I don't have Snow Leopard, I must purchase and install it in order to upgrade to Lion

False, see above.

- They've eliminated Front Row so as to make Apple TV more enticing

Good marketing move for Apple, regardless of how we feel. Annoying, but there it is. I think you may be able to extract it from SL, though.

- They've also eliminated Rosetta meaning my more than capable copy of MS Office 2004 must be upgraded to the whatever bloated piece junk M$ is now selling.

This is more Microsoft's fault than Apple's. When MS made Office 2004 they knew that Rosetta would not be around indefinitely. They chose to use legacy code to make Office 2004 anyway.

Also, the current version of Office is far, far faster than 2004, with much less bloat.

- Blu-ray is still a "big bag of hurt"

Yes, but there are ways around it.

 

[scaredpoet]

Good point.
Sometimes I'm afraid to post any doubt here because of these "Steve Jobs' super-duper-fans"...
Its like you dont even have permission to not know everything. You MUST know everything...

No one is saying the OP must "know" everything, or even agree for that matter. But when someone tells him "quit whining," it's for two reasons:

- He's advocating that 7 year old software work on a brand new operating system, and then repeats his demand and has a stompy-fit when he's told it just won't happen. THEN gets bent out of shape when, after pointing out that an equally old copy of Office works in Windows, someone dares to suggest that maybe he should use that then.

- He's already been made aware of the alternatives. He can stay with Snow Leopard. He can use alternative and free Office-comaptible software packages, like NeoOffice or LibreOffice. Or if he finds the whole idea that he MUST part with Office 2004 if he wants to use Lion abhorrent, he can choose to use a different platform, like Windows. And yet, the stompy-fit continues.

These aren't smug comments... these are factual alternatives. None of us here, not even the OP, can re-write Lion for him to include PowerPC support. Sorry, we just can't. Nor do any of us have the power to veto Steve Jobs' decisions. It doesn't matter whether any of us agree, disagree, worship him or hate him. The decision has been made, and the chances of the decision changing are slim to none. That's just the way it is. The OP's dislike of those facts does not change them.

Another fact is that yes, Apple is highly valued right now, and raking in the cash. Philosophically, those clinging to Rosetta might say that doesn't mean anything. Well, Apple's a business, not a charity. They are in business to earn a profit. And so far, the decisions they have made, whether you agree with them or not, have earned them significant amounts of money. Unless and until that changes, they will probably continue to make decisions like this over time.

Anyway, why is this all Apple's fault? Why not blame Microsoft for not coming out with a non-Rosetta patch for Office 2004? They've chosen not to for the same reasons that Apple isn't supporting it anymore: it's old technology, and supporting old technology doesn't make them any money. Microsoft, too, is a business and not a charity.

If stating the facts is fanboyish, then what exactly are "fanboys" expected to do, exactly? Lie to him?

Come on guys. NOT EVERYONE SPEND ALL DAY IN FRONT OF THE COMPUTER READING APPLE NEWS. There's a world out there...

Exactly! And if you feel the need to put your life on hold or start a crusade against Apple and all "fanboys" everywhere because Office 2004 doesn't run on Lion, then maybe you need to stop spending so much time in front of the computer.

The OP will not get a perfect solution to his liking, but there are alternatives. Pick one, and move on with life.

 

[balamw]

When MS made Office 2004 they knew that Rosetta would not be around indefinitely. They chose to use legacy code to make Office 2004 anyway.

I don't think that Microsoft had any foresight into the 2006 Intel transition in 2004. Office 2004 was on the shelves for 18 months before and ~24 months after the Intel transition when it was replaced with Office 2008.

B