So much anger and bitterness here and everywhere. Why ?

[maflynn]

you will see that a lot of people are actually purchasing the new Macs,

It will sell, given the pent up demand, but I do question if it will turn around the slide in sales overall. I think for the average consumer they may turn away from spending that much money. I could be wrong (heaven knows I've been wrong so many other times).

 

[mattopotamus]

It will sell, given the pent up demand, but I do question if it will turn around the slide in sales overall. I think for the average consumer they may turn away from spending that much money. I could be wrong (heaven knows I've been wrong so many other times).

I don't think it changes the PC market. If I did not need a computer for work, I would just own an iPad. I think that is what most people do now days.

 

[CarbonCycles]

There's the rub. Apple was experimenting and pushing the envelope with both hardware and software. When the world was run by Windows, Apple was the black sheep with Darwin and using RISC processors. They were as much a hardware company as they were a software powerhouse.

They pushed the envelope in video/photo applications and the scientific community loved them for their efficient hardware+software that could crush amazing numbers but still fit on under your desk.

I would say it was almost uncool to use Apple products, and you know what, we loved it. Using early Apple products meant you knew and understood the hardware and software that was driving it...it was designed for our lives by the nerds/geeks working at Apple. Apple used to be a very niche company that was very tight and run by people who knew what rm-rf * meant. They were also the users that manually wrote drivers for the hardware they designed.

Fast forward a few decades, and that no longer seems to be the case. Apple is run by a bunch of ex HP, IBM, DELL executives that couldn't write a simple print statement to save their careers more-less their lives. You can see the swing in corporate culture and even the "Street" has paid attention to Apple's latest drop in revenue (not to mention all the other myriad of things they are attempting to enter...). Honestly, how many damn iPhones does the world need?

Speaking for myself, it Apple would be honest with its users and board-members that it doesn't really give a damn about compute hardware anymore. I could live with that. Actually, I think the world would respect them more because then at least the executive board would finally be honest with itself.

Software is eating the world...every hardware vendor knows this. To survive, you either seriously accelerate your hardware offerings or leave the market (IBM with their Lenovo laptops).

From my shoes, it looks like Apple has made its decision clearer with each release (or lack of release)

I'm going to look inwardly and this is really about my feelings, and no one else.

For me, Apple has always been about being different, their design, their attention to detail, their use of premium components. Now in 2016, we have a 3 year old Mac Pro untouched since it was released and when it was unveiled it had a large price tag. The Mac Mini has been 2 years, since it last update and when they did update it, they cut down the number of cores, its now a hamstrung machine that is left unloved.

I reference those machines to illustrate a pattern, and since I've owned (or still own), Mac minis, and Mac Pros (used to own a MP), I have some vested interest. With regards to the MacBook Pro, I have a 2012, and that as the last major update. That machine was (and is great), but the subsequent years have only brought minor speed bumps and a slight thinning.

Fast forward to 2016, we have HP, Dell, Microsoft, Asus and others producing some unique designs, or very fast machines, so the hope was that Apple was going to leap frog them, and I suppose in a way they have. Love it or hate it, the touch bar is a unqiue feature and I believe its apple's answer to touch screen laptops. Also inline with Apple's philosophy, they made the laptop thinner - no surprise there.

 

[Queen6]

Form over function; depreciating the battery by 25% for the sake of aesthetics, then Phil Schiller puts out a weak excuse for not offering the option of 32Gb RAM for Apple`s premium "Pro" notebook due battery life. Just smacks of greed, as you can bet a couple of years down the road Apple will "magically" find the power budget for 32Gb in order to stimulate sales. Surprise, Surprise, in reality no surprise...

Form over function; Another round of uninspiring dGPU`s that make Apple`s purposely designed in-house upgrades to scalp the customer virtually mandatory. I don't think any of us expected an NVIDA 1080, however the 460 should be default not an additional expense.

Form over function; Apple should be looking to match Lenovo`s excellent keyboard on the ThinkPad X1 carbon, not utilising an extremely short throw keyboard more suited to a 2lb business ultra portable, in what is claimed to be their premium portable experience.

Form over function; forcing everyone who actually needs to use these machines "on the go" into "the hell of one thousand dongles" Given TB-3 has very significant bandwidth, a 2 x USB A & 2 x USB C solution would make for far more sense, with the move to all USB C coming in 2020 when the real world might actually have adopted the standard to a reasonable level. Apple opted for all ports being USB C solely for their own purposes;

• Aesthetics - form over function
• Reduced tooling cost - 4 year cycle (min)
• Scale of economy - higher volumes, cheaper prices over longterm contracts
• Increased revenue from peripherals - now virtually mandatory

Without any doubts USB C is a significant leap forward, equally it will take several years to be fully adopted. For many customers a USB A & USB C solution would have made for a far superior solution, especially given TB-3`s bandwidth. I don't see too many maxing out all four ports, inversely I do see many being unhappy about having to deal with numerous dongles & adaptors etc. depending on their workflow/location. Not the end of the earth, equally a royal PIA. It would not be such an issue if Apple actually offered a desktop docking solution, they don't.

Storage; 13" is ok, 15" should have 512 as default, yet again Apple is scalping it`s customers with it`s excessive margins. Nor is it in Apple`s interest given recent changes in macOS. Apple wants to sell services including cloud storage. Add in no SD card, personally I don't use it too much, however some do; back to dongles.

OS; OS X, now macOS has been steadily degrading in stability and productivity features over recent years. MicroSoft is making significant strides, and we get Emoji`s & Siri which is dumb as a post and near useless.

Pricing; The price for those of using the machines professionally it`s likely not an issue, however the 2016 MBP for many simply does not represent good value. I also strongly suspect that many are sick and tired of Apple nickel & diming it`s customers; seriously needing to pay for the power extension cable, not including a basic adaptor for USB C to A in the box. Monopolies never serve the customer as is clearly illustrated. Pricing for many recreational users is now prohibitive, even the 13". Seems to me Apple wants to ship fewer units with a higher margin, so those of us that do purchase new will have the privilege of giving ever more to Apple`s coffers.

I dont remember too many stating that the Retina MacBook Pro was ever too bulky or too heavy, equally many do want to see a better class of dGPU, the option for 32GB RAM, and not to be dealing with endless dongles that Apple will look to sell to us all. Many I believe want the MBP to offer both performance & flexibility, not a port constrained MacBook Air on steroids. Ultimately thinner for the sake of thinner can only result in diminishing returns.

People are justifiably angry after such a long drought, Apple has simply served up a nice consumer notebook that works against many, equally there are positive aspects P3 display, Touch Bar I believe will add value as long as it`s well adopted. Improved cooling, performance remain to be seen.

Am I buying? For the first time I am holding off on the launch of a new 15" MBP as I feel the 2016 is overly compromised for the wrong reasons. I have concerns regarding the keyboard, most definitely want details regarding cooling, operating temperatures etc. given the 15" MBP`s tragic record with the dGPU, although I do believe that Apple has made headway in this area. Needing to think if I can deal with the dongles on the go, it seems superficial, however it does build frustration over time (FIW rMB user for over a year). MBP is for many their primary workstation and absolutely requires flexibly.

My gut feeling is to sit it out, wait on the 2nd Gen 15" Apple may condescend to offer a 32Gb option & higher spec dGPU as standard. Apple has definitely improved, equally Apple has also has it`s fair share of issues with Gen 1 MBP`s in the past or lacking options, later to be included to stimulate sales. Alternatively I may look to pick up a discounted 2015 15" as I doubt we will see significant performance gains with the 2016 15" MBP without digging deep and maxing the unit out.

As another member pointed the 2016 is designed for a specific market, likely my needs fall out of this to some extents, not so much angry on my side, more disappointed...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

I don't think it changes the PC market. If I did not need a computer for work, I would just own an iPad. I think that is what most people do now days.

The computer market is shrinking to be sure, but at the moment, we have Lenovo, Asus, Dell (others?) increasing their sales not decreasing, so those people who are buying computers have moved on from Apple. Maybe that was a temporary move and the new Macs will turn things around for apple.

Apple is run by a bunch of ex HP, IBM, DELL executives that couldn't write a simple print statement to save their careers more-less their lives

I think this video from Jobs hits home, Apple has promoted those folks who increased sales, and not promoted innovators so we see the very phenomenon that Jobs describes

 

[jackoatmon]

I think it's really largely a price thing. Obviously there are other legitimate concerns, but realistically, the keyboard and port 'issues' fix themselves – you use the keyboard and become accustomed to it (or not, which is personal and quite possibly a deal-breaker for some), and you gradually transition to cables and peripherals that suit the new ports.

The RAM, while very fast, is a legitimate disappointment. They really just should have crammed 24gigs in. 32 is overkill for almost everything, but it's not rare to push 13, 14 gigs if you're doing a lot of stuff. I have a feeling that pros are just going to have to shut down Photoshop when they're running FCPX sometimes, and stuff like that. But with 4gigs of vRAM and more & more CPU-to-GPU task offloading these days, it may well actually be fine for 4-5 years.

I think the critique of the GPU is seriously off-base. The 460 looks like an extremely good choice for the machine – capable of running 3 huge displays at once, very low heat, low power, very good shaders and specs.

The CPU, skylake, kaby lake, whatever – CPU raw specs have not mattered for years for all but the most extreme use cases. Once you've got a decent quad core with hyperthreading, it's very, very unlikely that CPU is your limiting factor. At that point, you should be paying a lot more attention to read/write speeds, GPU, I/O speeds, software integration (people really underestimate this, but for instance FCPX is approx 4 times faster than Premiere Pro for critical heavy tasks on a lot of Apple machines).

Every good piece of engineering optimizes for certain features. In this case, the machine was completely optimized for the physical form factor and user interface elements (keyboard debate aside).

Which brings me to the real reason people are angry – as mentioned – the price. This thing is a luxury machine for professionals. It can, without a doubt, do almost anything a professional would ever want for years to come. We know this to be true because otherwise professional work would not have been possible on earth 4 years ago when the top-spec desktop computers had specs comparable to this little mobile computer.

And it's hard to swallow that you have to pay (realistically) $3500 for this thing to be really worth it. Especially when you're used to paying $2500 for something with similar specs. But this time around, you're getting the minor spec bump as usual, but you're paying a bunch of money to remove half a pound of weight, have better machining on the back/bezel, a higher dynamic colour range in the screen, etc. things that don't matter much, except to... professionals.

I can understand not liking this machine, but for those who it's targeted at, Apple could not have done a better job. (Except RAM – arrrrggh)

 

[Queen6]

I think this video from Jobs hits home, Apple has promoted those folks who increased sales, and not promoted innovators so we see the very phenomenon that Jobs describes

Cant up vote this enough

Q-6

 

[dumastudetto]

I'm a software/hardware developer, what is your credentials. There is no more tuning going on than in every nvidia/amd driver for windows.

You don't know that despite your very very supremely impressive credentials as a software/hardware developer.

 

[maflynn]

I'm a software/hardware developer, what is your credentials. There is no more tuning going on than in every nvidia/amd driver for windows.

From what I've seen, heard and experienced, Windows video drivers tend to be tighter and better optimized then their OS X counterparts. Plus you have the clearly superior DirectX vs. OpenGL

 

[beowulf70]

Why?

Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter
£49.00

Enough said

 

[dumastudetto]

From what I've seen, heard and experienced, Windows video drivers tend to be tighter and better optimized then their OS X counterparts. Plus you have the clearly superior DirectX vs. OpenGL

I've seen far more graphics driver and display issues on Windows systems than macOS which usually runs pretty flawlessly all the time. Microsoft's own Surface Book had horrific problems for months. The XPS 13/15 with Skylakes were plagued by them too, and there are still issues even now.

If you're talking about gaming then sure Apple doesn't give a stuff about that crap on Macs.

 

[Bryan Bowler]

I am truly disappointed in the direction the MacRumor forums have gone. The amount of complaining and whining that is going on here has been allowed to get too far out of control. Don't get me wrong, folks should be allowed to discuss things they don't like, but there's a huge difference between criticism and unfounded whining/trolling.

Unfortunately, the latter has been allowed to happen to the point that this forum has become a self-licking ice cream cone. The sourness and complaining just perpetuates upon itself and serves no greater purpose. It really bums me out because this used to be a place where I could learn a lot and walk away with a smarter view. Now this forum propagates hatred and anger.

I feel like it's time to actively find another website that is more productive, a place where criticism is backed up by facts and good discussion...but I've been holding out because I really do want to stay here and I'm hoping the moderation will increase and get things back on track around here.

Mods, please do not take it personally. I really appreciate the volunteer work you do. I just think a cultural shift is needed here to save this forum and the moderation team is in the best position to effect the change.

 

[maflynn]

f you're talking about gaming then sure Apple doesn't give a stuff about that crap on Macs.

No, I'm talking usage other then gaming, because I don't game.

 

[dumastudetto]

I am truly disappointed in the direction the MacRumor forums have gone. The amount of complaining and whining that is going on here has been allowed to get too far out of control. Don't get me wrong, folks should be allowed to discuss things they don't like, but there's a huge difference between criticism and unfounded whining/trolling.

Unfortunately, the latter has been allowed to happen to the point that this forum has become a self-licking ice cream cone. The sourness and complaining just perpetuates upon itself and serves no greater purpose. It really bums me out because this used to be a place where I could learn a lot and walk away with a smarter view. Now this forum propagates hatred and anger.

I feel like it's time to actively find another website that is more productive, a place where criticism is backed up by facts and good discussion...but I've been holding out because I really do want to stay here and I'm hoping the moderation will increase and get things back on track around here.

Mods, please do not take it personally. I really appreciate the volunteer work you do. I just think a cultural shift is needed here to save this forum and the moderation team is in the best position to effect the change.

It is upsetting but a lot of the criticism is coming from longstanding MR members who have been very loyal to the Mac and the site. You can't just shut them down now because they are unhappy.

Things usually calm down pretty quickly after a new product launch and people will either abandon the Mac as they threaten, or they will find to adapt to continue enjoying macOS. I'm sure the latter will be the case for the vast majority of people on here.
[doublepost=1477918883][/doublepost]

No, I'm talking usage other then gaming, because I don't game.

I note you didn't comment on the reality that there have been a ton of graphics driver issues on Surface and flagship XPS devices from Dell. Things I have never ever seen on a Mac before.

I personally appreciate the stability as much as the performance of the Mac.

 

[maflynn]

I note you didn't comment on the reality that there have been a ton of graphics driver issues on Surface and flagship XPS devices from Dell. Things I have never ever seen on a Mac before.

Yes, there were a number of issues, not graphic drivers for the Surface computers and they've been fixed. My SurfaceBook is rock solid.

As for XPS, I don't own them, so I cannot comment if people have incurred any issues. I don't have to search to heard here in the MBP forum (or even the iMac forums) to see people complaining about lagging and or graphic related issues

 

[CarbonCycles]

I think this video from Jobs hits home, Apple has promoted those folks who increased sales, and not promoted innovators so we see the very phenomenon that Jobs describes

This man gets it! If I could give you a 1e12 likes I would.

 

[dumastudetto]

Yes, there were a number of issues, not graphic drivers for the Surface computers and they've been fixed. My SurfaceBook is rock solid.

As for XPS, I don't own them, so I cannot comment if people have incurred any issues. I don't have to search to heard here in the MBP forum (or even the iMac forums) to see people complaining about lagging and or graphic related issues

Here's a couple of instances in recent times published by Paul Thurrott:
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/mic...lay-driver-fix-for-surface-book-surface-pro-4
http://www.windowscentral.com/dec-6th-generation-intel-core-beta-graphics-driver-windows-10

https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/mic...driver-update-hits-surface-book-surface-pro-4

The Dell XPS 15 still has flickering display issues and has experienced tons of bad graphics driver updates from both Nvidia and Intel - all very similar to what Thurrott has reported on Microsoft hardware.

I honestly never experience the same crashes, hangs and other bugs reported in these flagship Windows devices on a Mac. It's true Apple doesn't push the limits of graphics to the max, but I think they strike the right between between stability and very good performance.

 

[maflynn]

but I think they strike the right between between stability and very good performance.

Others disagree, including myself. my first hand experience has been nothing but positive

 

[Queen6]

Nor is the negativity constrained to MR

To me there have been changes, people are reacting to them. For many the 2016 MBP may just be the tipping point, simple as that.

Q-6

 

[adoniteking]

I feel like it's time to actively find another website that is more productive, a place where criticism is backed up by facts and good discussion...but I've been holding out because I really do want to stay here and I'm hoping the moderation will increase and get things back on track around here.

While I understand your point of view, freedom of speech is one of the internet's pillars and forums are platforms that encourage such engagement. This means anyone is allowed to voice an opinion regardless of age or differences, whether it is from the constructive person or online bigot(troll).

The increase in 'negative' threads is simply a testament to the public's conscience realising the change in government and their policies. When people reject these policies, you end up with Anarchy and thats is simply what is going on with Apple and their consumers. The sentiment is real and there is no running away from it right now.

 

[Bryan Bowler]

It is upsetting but a lot of the criticism is coming from longstanding MR members who have been very loyal to the Mac and the site. You can't just shut them down now because they are unhappy.

I need to better clarify my post. I'm not suggesting that intelligent or legitimate criticism needs to be shut down. I'm saying that the over-the-top whining and temper-tantrums should be curbed. All one has to do is spend a little time in this forum (or almost any discussion right now) and you'll quickly see what I'm talking about.

Here's an example of intelligent criticism:

Yes, there were a number of issues, not graphic drivers for the Surface computers and they've been fixed. My SurfaceBook is rock solid.

As for XPS, I don't own them, so I cannot comment if people have incurred any issues. I don't have to search to heard here in the MBP forum (or even the iMac forums) to see people complaining about lagging and or graphic related issues

Mike is not happy with the direction of things lately, but he doesn't throw temper-tantrums or spew hatred. He discusses what he thinks is wrong and discusses ways things could be improved.

But when one spends 20 minutes reading this forum and 19+ minutes of it are filled with hatred and discussions are filled with nothing but whiney banter, then it becomes very unproductive for everyone. And I don't think any of us want to see that. MacRumors is a great place and it needs to regain some level of decency and sensibility in the forums.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Form over function; depreciating the battery by 25% for the sake of aesthetics, then Phil Schiller puts out a weak excuse for not offering the option of 32Gb RAM for Apple`s premium "Pro" notebook due battery life. Just smacks of greed, as you can bet a couple of years down the road Apple will "magically" find the power budget for 32Gb in order to stimulate sales.

Form over function; Another round of uninspiring dGPU`s that make Apple`s purposely designed in-house upgrades to scalp the customer virtually mandatory. I don't think any of us expected an NVIDA 1080 however the 460 should be default not an additional expense.

Form over function; Apple should be looking to match Lenovo`s excellent keyboard on the ThinkPad X1 carbon, not utilising an extremely short throw keyboard more suited to a 2lb business ultra portable, in what is claimed to be their premium portable experience.

Form over function; forcing everyone who actually needs to use these machines "on the go" into "the hell of one thousand dongles" Given TB-3 has very significant bandwidth, a 2 x USB A & 2 x USB C solution would make for far more sense, with the move to all USB C coming in 2020 when the real world might actually have adopted the standard to a reasonable level. Apple opted for all ports being USB C solely for their own purposes;

• Aesthetics - form over function
• Reduced tooling over time - 4 year cycle (min)
• Scale of economy - higher volumes, cheaper prices over longterm contracts
• Increased revenue from peripherals - now virtually mandatory

Without any doubts USB C is a significant leap forward, equally it will take several years to be fully adopted. For many customers a USB A & USB C solution would have made for a far superior solution, especially given TB-3`s bandwidth. I don't see too many maxing out all four ports, inversely I do see many being unhappy about having to deal with numerous dongles & adaptors etc. depending on their workflow/location. Not the end of the earth, equally a royal PIA. It would not be such an issue if Apple actually offered a desktop docking solution.

Storage; 13" is ok, 15: should have 512 as default, yet again Apple is scalping it`s customers with it`s excessive margins. Nor is it in Apple`s interest given recent changes in macOS. Apple wants to sell services including cloud services. Add in no SD card, personally I don't use it too much, however some do; see dongles.

OS; OS X, now macOS has been steadily degrading in stability and productivity features over recent years. MS is making significant strides, and we get Emoji`s & Siri which is near useless.

I dont remember too many stating that the Retina MacBook Pro was ever too bulky or too heavy, equally many do want to see a better class of dGPU the option for 32GB RAM. Not be dealing with endless dongles that Apple will look to sell to us all. Many I believe wanted to MBP to offer both flexibility and performance not a MacBook Air on steroids. Ultimately thin of the sale of thin only results in diminishing returns.

Pricing; The price for those of using the machines professionally is not an issue, however the 2016 MBP for many simply does not represent good value, I also strongly suspect that many are also sick and tired of Apple nickel & diming it`s customers; seriously needing to pay for the power extension, not including a basic adaptor for USB C to A in the box. Monopolies never serve the customer as is clearly illustrated. Pricing for many recreational users is now prohibitive, seems to me Apple wants to ship fewer units with higher margin, so those that due purchase new have the privilege of giving more to Apple.

People are justifiably angry after such a long drought, Apple has simply served up a nice consumer notebook, that works against many, equally there are positive aspects P3 display, Touch Bar I believe will add value as long as it`s well adopted. Improved cooling, performance remain to be seen.

Am I buying? For the first time I am holding off on the launch of a new 15" MBP as I feel the 2016 is overly compromised for the wrong reasons. I have concerns regarding the keyboard, most definitely want details regarding cooling, operating temperatures etc. given the 15" MBP`s tragic record with the dGPU, although I do believe that Apple has made headway in this area. Needing to think if I can deal with the dongles on the go, it seems superficial, however it does build frustration in time (FIW rMB user for over a year). MBP is for many their primary workstation and absolutely requires flexibly.

My gut feeling is to sit it out, wait on the 2nd Gen with Kaby Lake and if Apple condescends 32Gb option. Apple has definitely got better, equally it has also has issue with it`Gen 1 MBP`s in the past. Alternatively I may look to pick up a discounted 2015 15" as I doubt we will see significant performance gains with the 2016 MBP with out digging deep.

As another pointed the 2016 is design for a specific market and likely my needs fall out of this to some extents, not so much angry on my side, more disappointed...

Q-6

After reading this post I'd love to shake your hand.

 

[Queen6]

After reading this post I'd love to shake your hand.

You'd be most welcome

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Mike is not happy with the direction of things lately, but he doesn't throw temper-tantrums or spew hatred. He discusses what he thinks is wrong and discusses ways things could be improved.

But when one spends 20 minutes reading this forum and 19+ minutes of it are filled with hatred and discussions are filled with nothing but whiney banter, then it becomes very unproductive for everyone. And I don't think any of us want to see that. MacRumors is a great place and it needs to regain some level of decency and sensibility in the forums.

I agree, there is a lack of maturity occuring in these forums, and I cannot make excuses for that. All I try to do as an apple fan, voice my opinions and disappointments and hope that apple continues to improve on the design.

Personally, given the price point of the MBPs, its hard for me to justify a purchase but who knows what the future will hold.

 

[dumastudetto]

Others disagree, including myself. my first hand experience has been nothing but positive

I know you have the Surface Book, and I have an XPS 15 (9550) sitting here in my office. I'm not for a moment saying they are terrible machines. But I have undoubtedly encountered far fewer problems with the current MacBook Pro I have owned since late 2013, than the Dell that has sit here for just 6 or 7 months. And most of the problems I've seen on the Dell I have seen renowned Microsoft fan boy Paul Thurrott write about on his own site in relation to the Surface Book.

I also accept the Mac isn't going to be the perfect solution for everyone. I do think some of the complaining is going overboard on here. I certainly don't think the new MacBook Pro signifies a huge shift in the market Apple is targeting with their new computers. It's the same high-end professional market they've always been shooting for with the MacBook Pro. Great performance, stylish design, light, thin, portable, decent (but not the best) graphics, and neat little innovative touches like the Touch Bar and TouchID that will improve the overall Mac experience for most people.