How about the famous dgpu failures in Macs?
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So much anger and bitterness here and everywhere. Why ?
- Thread starter ihatetoregister
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How about the famous dgpu failures in Macs?
Don't worry. It happens every major update.
With the Retina MacBook Pros you could hear people gnashing their teeth that Apple would take away their beloved DVD/CD writers and Firewire and Ethernet ports. 6 months later people were praising Apple for being so forward thinking, and bashing Windows systems for having that "old" technology.
The same will happen again.
The only slight variation is now Apple is following Windows and Android systems which started adoption USB-C over a year ago.
With the Retina MacBook Pros you could hear people gnashing their teeth that Apple would take away their beloved DVD/CD writers and Firewire and Ethernet ports. 6 months later people were praising Apple for being so forward thinking, and bashing Windows systems for having that "old" technology.
The same will happen again.
The only slight variation is now Apple is following Windows and Android systems which started adoption USB-C over a year ago.
If you've been using Macs since the 90s then you wouldn't think this prices are "exorbitant," nor do the facts support your claim.
The top of the line MacBook Pro in 2005 was $2,799 ($3,460 in today's dollars). The top of the line MacBook Pro 2016 is $3,499, and it's a significant increase in computing power, memory, storage, and functionality over the 2005, and even the 2015.
The original PowerBook was $3,499 ($4,769 in today's dollars). Going back to your 90s Mac, the PowerBook was nearly $7,000 in today's dollars and had a fraction of the functionality.
The actual data supports that prices have dropped, and that people get more computing power and functionality in return. Disagreeing with something or not being able to afford it, does not make the price "exorbitant," just beyond your affordability and subjective belief of what value is.
There are more Mac users now than ever. People have always complained about what Apple does, it's just now there are more Mac users complaining so we feel it more. That, and the world is turning into an increasingly bitter place.
Another iOS developer here. It's not about affordability, as when the needs arise and we are forced to upgrade our current machine, we will. It just that with the latest offerings it has become something like: if I no longer develop for iOS, I won't get a Mac. It's different from the olden days.
It really just boils down to a combination of factors, but the predominant ones are price, specs, and ports against personal expectations. If it was just one of the 3, that would be one thing, but it's the stacking of these factors.
I think a fair number of people expected USB-C/TB3, but only to replace the TB2 ports we had -- so keep USB-A, HDMI, SD Card, etc. Yeah, we had the leaked chassis, but that could have been prior to milling the other ports out, so there was still some amount of hope.
While USB-C/TB3 are definitely the future, it's still early, and some of these consumers/prosumers/professionals that traditionally buy MBPs probably have a fair number of production external devices that demand older interfaces. I'm not talking trivial things like a mouse, more like accessing their 6 month old $2000 disk array, or using their SD card from their dSLR out in the field. Heck, to even connect their brand-new iPhone to their new Mac, they'll have to use an adapter (although I expect future iPhone cables to be USB-C to Lightning, we're not there yet).
Specs, short and sweet, RAM should be 16GB base with 32GB and 64GB options, base SSD should probably be 512GB for the price segments. Now we hear about the lower-performing right-side ports on the 13" model, DDR3 vs DDR4, and the lack of Iris Pro iGPU graphics on the 15" (for the situations where you don't want/need to engage the Radeon card). Compromises along the way on machines that were rarely compromises in the past, spec-wise.
Pricing is easy, really -- prices are a few hundred dollars higher than the models they're replacing. The base 15" used to be $1999, and now it's $2399. The 13" used to be $1499, and now (for all intents and purposes, CPU-wise) it's $1799. They're attempting to give more "value" to command those higher prices, but if you didn't need a dGPU on the 15" for example, you're paying for something you didn't necessarily need/want.
And for clarity, I did pre-order a 15" with the Radeon Pro 460, but I also understood (and accepted) what I was buying as well.
I think a fair number of people expected USB-C/TB3, but only to replace the TB2 ports we had -- so keep USB-A, HDMI, SD Card, etc. Yeah, we had the leaked chassis, but that could have been prior to milling the other ports out, so there was still some amount of hope.
While USB-C/TB3 are definitely the future, it's still early, and some of these consumers/prosumers/professionals that traditionally buy MBPs probably have a fair number of production external devices that demand older interfaces. I'm not talking trivial things like a mouse, more like accessing their 6 month old $2000 disk array, or using their SD card from their dSLR out in the field. Heck, to even connect their brand-new iPhone to their new Mac, they'll have to use an adapter (although I expect future iPhone cables to be USB-C to Lightning, we're not there yet).
Specs, short and sweet, RAM should be 16GB base with 32GB and 64GB options, base SSD should probably be 512GB for the price segments. Now we hear about the lower-performing right-side ports on the 13" model, DDR3 vs DDR4, and the lack of Iris Pro iGPU graphics on the 15" (for the situations where you don't want/need to engage the Radeon card). Compromises along the way on machines that were rarely compromises in the past, spec-wise.
Pricing is easy, really -- prices are a few hundred dollars higher than the models they're replacing. The base 15" used to be $1999, and now it's $2399. The 13" used to be $1499, and now (for all intents and purposes, CPU-wise) it's $1799. They're attempting to give more "value" to command those higher prices, but if you didn't need a dGPU on the 15" for example, you're paying for something you didn't necessarily need/want.
And for clarity, I did pre-order a 15" with the Radeon Pro 460, but I also understood (and accepted) what I was buying as well.
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I certainly agree many of the threads are difficult reading right now. Fortunately most of them are easily identified by the thread title, so I don't waste much time loading them.
The iPad forum was a mess when the new Pros launched with a higher price tag and was completely unreadable for weeks. So I stopped going in there, and I awaited for everyone to chill out and move on and now it's readable again with plenty of sensible discussions.
I certainly don't envy the job of the mods on here. This site is huge, and I don't know how they even begin to keep up with all the posts that are made across all the forums on here (I'm sure they rely on us reporting posts as much as anything). Rather than asking them to do even more forum policing, I just respect they are doing the best job they possibly can do - and remind myself I'm sure it's all entirely voluntary without payment of any kind. It would take a lot of money for me to do what they do.
As I've said before in another thread, most of the negativity is because of the PRICE.
Back in the summer, we had photos leak of the new chassis. We've known for quite some time that TB3 was all we were going to have for IO. Yet excitement was still high.
We've known for quite some time about he OLED bar. We had a pretty good guess on how it would work and what limitations it would have. Yet excitement was still high.
In fact, most of us expected some amount of price increases. However, the large amount that they've raised the price is what really pissed everyone off. The MacBook Pro without the touchbar is basically the new Air or a 13" version of the MacBook. So really, the true entry level MacBook Pro is a staggering $1800!!! That puts it in the territory of some much better machines (spec wise). That's what really killed the excitement.
The new MacBook Pros are good machines. By this time next year, the touchbar will have better uses and more support. TB3/USB-C will be more mainstream and we may find ourselves using less adaptors or at least better designed and lower cost adapters.
I can guarantee you that if Apple were to lower the price to $1500 or even $1600 for the 13" MacBook Pro with touchbar (and give $300 back to the people who have already preordered) we would see an immediate change in mood on these forums.
Back in the summer, we had photos leak of the new chassis. We've known for quite some time that TB3 was all we were going to have for IO. Yet excitement was still high.
We've known for quite some time about he OLED bar. We had a pretty good guess on how it would work and what limitations it would have. Yet excitement was still high.
In fact, most of us expected some amount of price increases. However, the large amount that they've raised the price is what really pissed everyone off. The MacBook Pro without the touchbar is basically the new Air or a 13" version of the MacBook. So really, the true entry level MacBook Pro is a staggering $1800!!! That puts it in the territory of some much better machines (spec wise). That's what really killed the excitement.
The new MacBook Pros are good machines. By this time next year, the touchbar will have better uses and more support. TB3/USB-C will be more mainstream and we may find ourselves using less adaptors or at least better designed and lower cost adapters.
I can guarantee you that if Apple were to lower the price to $1500 or even $1600 for the 13" MacBook Pro with touchbar (and give $300 back to the people who have already preordered) we would see an immediate change in mood on these forums.
I know the hate was a lot higher than this, when apple announce in 2012 the macbook pro without optical drive and without the ability to change the ram etc+ the price. The storm will pass after 1 year of adoption.
I love the machine, it looks fantastic, and I am really happy with really fast ssd drives, i7 cpu on the 15" and being able to basically still plug in whatever to those ports.
But what I am not too happy about is Intel being so slow in their cpu releases, and apple choosing the lower end of those i7 ones.
And that the ram can't be upgraded to 32gb which i was really looking forward to,
and my frustration is from there being news there won't be an iMac release, which i was waiting for, for what feels like forever.
So this is the only upgrade we have, no mac mini, no mac pro, no imac, ..
And the video cards are a joke, as always, pushing you to a $3500 machine, which btw, is 3600 euro, which by the way is 600 dollar difference (yes, vat included).
little things pile up, i was looking at a 'BTO 3000 euro' imac/mbp update this year.
And now whatever i select starts at 3200 euro, and that's without touching the gpu upgrade.
And with a 1400 euro 5k monitor you can't even buy yet, that 3000 euro imac suddenly feels like a 5000 euro laptop.
It's not anger, it's frustration, that it's all a compromise, and that instead of feeling like it's an upgrade, you feel like it's a compromise you're paying for. I don't like wasting money.
But what I am not too happy about is Intel being so slow in their cpu releases, and apple choosing the lower end of those i7 ones.
And that the ram can't be upgraded to 32gb which i was really looking forward to,
and my frustration is from there being news there won't be an iMac release, which i was waiting for, for what feels like forever.
So this is the only upgrade we have, no mac mini, no mac pro, no imac, ..
And the video cards are a joke, as always, pushing you to a $3500 machine, which btw, is 3600 euro, which by the way is 600 dollar difference (yes, vat included).
little things pile up, i was looking at a 'BTO 3000 euro' imac/mbp update this year.
And now whatever i select starts at 3200 euro, and that's without touching the gpu upgrade.
And with a 1400 euro 5k monitor you can't even buy yet, that 3000 euro imac suddenly feels like a 5000 euro laptop.
It's not anger, it's frustration, that it's all a compromise, and that instead of feeling like it's an upgrade, you feel like it's a compromise you're paying for. I don't like wasting money.
It's disappointing to see apple seemingly go down the rabbit hole. Valuing esthetics is one thing but having esthetics rule over usefulness to the customer is another.
Esthetics and profit are the primary goals of apple and have taken a even more prominent place. Lightening cables, thinner smaller connecter is/was only one factor. Going to a model where apple gets a license fee for every cable made to connect to their products was the real factor. Going from a $3 cable to a $10-$15 cable and taking a big cut was a prime motivator to apple. Why no blue-ray? Apple (Steve in particular) wouldn't pay the license fee. Same kind of license fee apple now demands from cable makers.
You should make products that increase usefulness. Not remove usefulness. What is the point of making a laptop as smaller by removing ports? How much more volume would you need to have the same ports as before? Very very little. Most of the size reduction is by reducing the power requirements (thanks intel) not from removing the ports. Stuff these new internals in last years case and a new battery and viola instead of a 10 hour battery you have a 12,13,14,15 hour battery. Now that would grab my attention. Making it smaller didn't make it faster.
Raising the price is not a plus. Having to buy dongles to hang off for all the existing items is not a plus. Four ports, four dongles to buy. You also have to manage, keep, not lose, always be handy when needed. Show up at a clients office and not be able to connect to the usb drive they have to give you information, not have a hdmi dongle to connect to their projector? You also need more dongles so you don't get stuck without them. Dongles at home, office, travel case/backpack. Anyone out there have only one pair of earbuds? Bet most have a bunch of them. At least one at each of those locations (plus car) is probably more likely. A hidden revenue generator and price increase to the end user.
If SDcard reader to large, why not include a micro SDcard reader? Oh yeah, I should trash all my existing cameras and buy new ones that have wireless.
Maybe you could make the excuse in the Macbook of having only one port but on the Pro there isn't a good excuse for not including at least one regular USB port.
Bought a Air after seeing Macbook. Take the hit on screen vs the other tradeoffs (ports, speed, keyboard). Chose it over a Retna Pro also. My biggest pive on the Macbook Pros has actually been the sharp edge at the base of the keyboard. It always seems to be digging into my palm or wrist. Big factor I got the Air over a Retna Pro. Love the thin front edge of the Air, more ergonomic. I'd of been much happier if they had just rounded that edge even a little bit on the Pro.
I don't get what is wrong with the Air? Best form factor of a laptop ever. Refresh it with a better screen with smaller bezels and done.
How about Sierra by default moving much of your files to iCloud? Can be a real hidden surprise and a real headache. Real potential to get you really screwed over if you go over to that forum and see.
Apple has made good products but gets full of itself sometimes.
Esthetics and profit are the primary goals of apple and have taken a even more prominent place. Lightening cables, thinner smaller connecter is/was only one factor. Going to a model where apple gets a license fee for every cable made to connect to their products was the real factor. Going from a $3 cable to a $10-$15 cable and taking a big cut was a prime motivator to apple. Why no blue-ray? Apple (Steve in particular) wouldn't pay the license fee. Same kind of license fee apple now demands from cable makers.
You should make products that increase usefulness. Not remove usefulness. What is the point of making a laptop as smaller by removing ports? How much more volume would you need to have the same ports as before? Very very little. Most of the size reduction is by reducing the power requirements (thanks intel) not from removing the ports. Stuff these new internals in last years case and a new battery and viola instead of a 10 hour battery you have a 12,13,14,15 hour battery. Now that would grab my attention. Making it smaller didn't make it faster.
Raising the price is not a plus. Having to buy dongles to hang off for all the existing items is not a plus. Four ports, four dongles to buy. You also have to manage, keep, not lose, always be handy when needed. Show up at a clients office and not be able to connect to the usb drive they have to give you information, not have a hdmi dongle to connect to their projector? You also need more dongles so you don't get stuck without them. Dongles at home, office, travel case/backpack. Anyone out there have only one pair of earbuds? Bet most have a bunch of them. At least one at each of those locations (plus car) is probably more likely. A hidden revenue generator and price increase to the end user.
If SDcard reader to large, why not include a micro SDcard reader? Oh yeah, I should trash all my existing cameras and buy new ones that have wireless.
Maybe you could make the excuse in the Macbook of having only one port but on the Pro there isn't a good excuse for not including at least one regular USB port.
Bought a Air after seeing Macbook. Take the hit on screen vs the other tradeoffs (ports, speed, keyboard). Chose it over a Retna Pro also. My biggest pive on the Macbook Pros has actually been the sharp edge at the base of the keyboard. It always seems to be digging into my palm or wrist. Big factor I got the Air over a Retna Pro. Love the thin front edge of the Air, more ergonomic. I'd of been much happier if they had just rounded that edge even a little bit on the Pro.
I don't get what is wrong with the Air? Best form factor of a laptop ever. Refresh it with a better screen with smaller bezels and done.
How about Sierra by default moving much of your files to iCloud? Can be a real hidden surprise and a real headache. Real potential to get you really screwed over if you go over to that forum and see.
Apple has made good products but gets full of itself sometimes.
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Price, lack of ports, gimmicky touch bar, memory limited to 16GB, unimpressive GPU, loss of MagSafe.
It's all a steaming pile of fail. Core rot is running deep at Apple.........
It's all a steaming pile of fail. Core rot is running deep at Apple.........
Ok, this is good, you get right to the point. Are you a Macbook user? I mean, I agree completely with you. and i'm buying the new 15" MBP because,
Do you know many volounteer devs? Yes, i'm professional and making plenty of money. I've bought a Mac (iMac 5k) in the last four years, I wouldn't ever rely on one of these MacBooks solely. 16 gb RAM in your main work machine. No thanks.
It seems to me that this has always been the case, Apple announce something, much to the initial mockery from other companies and initial resistance from consumers, but then people start using the devices in question and soon change their minds. I've been saying it for a while now, i think Mac's are much better than Window's machines.
I know this is a controversial topic. My first Mac was a MacBook Pro in 2011, it has been a great machine and has lasted me far longer than any PC i ever owned before it, also it has not needed maintenance like a PC or had half as many crashes or bugs.
Only time will tell if the Touch Bar will be helpful and properly used by developers and consumers. But already there are a couple of reviews that say the new MacBook Pro's are great.
I know this is a controversial topic. My first Mac was a MacBook Pro in 2011, it has been a great machine and has lasted me far longer than any PC i ever owned before it, also it has not needed maintenance like a PC or had half as many crashes or bugs.
Only time will tell if the Touch Bar will be helpful and properly used by developers and consumers. But already there are a couple of reviews that say the new MacBook Pro's are great.
I think there will be an initial burst of sales but it will quickly languish. I fully plan on getting a Dell now.
Actually I take the opposite view. I think there is alot of fan-boy apologism going on. For example the thread about the 16GB limit has folks arguing tooth and nail that nobody ever needs more than 16GB and refusing to accept the opinions of those telling they need > 16GB and why. Were I a mod I would be smacking certain people as trolls on that thread.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...y-life-concerns.2010291/page-24#post-23820841
An the logic board failures and swelling batteries before that. My first mac needed 2 logic board replacements and a battery replacement.
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The difference this time is we're not getting any major discernible improvement. Apple opted for a thinner design which meant the optical drive was removed, but we did get a gorgeous retina display, that was a major improvement.
Now we have an even thinner laptop but we get an OLED bar that can give us more abilities to send Emojis. Yes, it will do more, but I do question the full efficiency of such a product, especially once you throw in external monitors, keyboards and mice
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I was seriously getting sucked up into the excitment and was kicking around the idea of switching back from my Surface Book to a MBP, but after the media event, thy confirmed I made the right decision (for me). I'll stick with my Surface Book
I'm sorry - it was sarcasm. I was pointing out that you are free to choose what you buy. Just this spread of negativity is really depressing...
I am observing macrumors forums, and recently I observed explosion of new threads by:
1. Paid trolls from competitors flaming for any flaw they can find.
2. Users that can't (or barely) afford the new macbook and rationalize against it - while still secretly craving it.
3. Users longing for legacy ports and freaking out on lack of them.
4. Confused - regular mac users who are either taken on by negative flow or they ignore it and try to find genuine answers for their questions
I think there are valid criticisms in terms of price -- I think Apple is in a bit of a "bubble" when they raised the prices on these new machines. They do look like solid designs, but sometimes I think Apple overestimates the value of their choices -- the more complicated the machines get, the more compromises have to be made, so the more people you are going to make unhappy sacrificing things. The touch bar looks nice, but not $300 nice.
I also worry "style" and "form" are becoming too "primary" instead of "secondary." It's a subjective thing to judge for sure, but when I read, for example, that putting a battery in the Apple Watch band was nixed because they wanted to have different style bands available, I really cringed.
Now, all that being said, I think the vitriol of late is part of a broader trend in society. A lot more people are on the Internet these days, and I think it has dragged down discourse to some extent. Just look at the level of conversation in American politics now...
I also worry "style" and "form" are becoming too "primary" instead of "secondary." It's a subjective thing to judge for sure, but when I read, for example, that putting a battery in the Apple Watch band was nixed because they wanted to have different style bands available, I really cringed.
Now, all that being said, I think the vitriol of late is part of a broader trend in society. A lot more people are on the Internet these days, and I think it has dragged down discourse to some extent. Just look at the level of conversation in American politics now...
5. Fanboys who are dismissive of legitimate differences of opinion.
Even in this thread, anger ! So, on a lighter note https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the_new_macbook_pro/