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Re: INteresting!

<quote>
Thanks you very much Lords in forge!
</quote>

Accually its Lord Sinforge rather than Lords in Forge. Its the name of my bnet (diablo and diablo2) account. And when I get around to programming some somewhat useful software it will be "distributed" (likely as freeware) as either "SinForge Software" or Sinforge Software" I haven't decided which, any votes for which I should use?

Enjoy,

Lord Sin (D1 nickname) :)
 
There seems to be a misunderstanding. Apple's OS isn't open source.

"My point was that Apple can afford to make their OS open source, as that isn't what they make their money with. They pretty much give it away, with the purchase of a computer. Go to any computer store that sells Apple, and just ask for a copy of OS X upgrade, it free! Microsoft on the other hand has the OS, that is their money maker. They can't make their product Open Source."

The portion of MacOS X that is open is the kernel. The core of the OS. Which is based on FreeBSD. Which you can already get free for a PC.

The parts that make MacOS X what you think of as MacOS X, Quartz, Cocoa, Carbon, QuickTime, Aqua, etc, AREN'T open source. The API set is NOT open source.

The kernel is the process-switcher, the task organizer. It's the guy who coordiantes how things run. Everything beyond the process-switching, the API's, the graphics functions, EVERYTHING, is closed-source.

The reason Darwin is open source is to have a large amount of testing done on it. Apple's OS is not Open Source. Just their kernel.


"Now it may not have the fancy UI of OS X, but it will run the markedly similar x-windows manager windowmaker"

XWindows is the entire API set that makes *nix have a GUI. XWindows is akin to Cocoa, Carbon, Quartz, OpenGL, etc. So, running the window manager "windowmaker" means you run XWindows. Which means you are just running a modified FreeBSD with X.
 
Darwin Open Source

Darwin is not the OS. Correct me if I am wrong, but calling Darwin the OS, is like calling Windows 3.1 an OS. It's a GUI for the actual OS. Just as a previous message said, you don't have to run Darwin, you can run a version of X-Windows, thus something is running underneath. That is the OS, at least by the textbook definition of an OS.

By the way, my mind is blanker than normal, what is the name of the "Kernal" of the OS X? With all the code names floating around: Darwin, Quartz, etc..., I can't keep track.
 
According to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

"Darwin" is the kernel. It's open source.

"Quartz", OpenGL, QuickTime are the graphics API on the next "tier". Cocoa, Carbon, and Classic are the GUI API's on the next "tier". And then Aqua is the top-level "tier", the UI.

(On the PC side: FreeBSD, Linux, etc, are kernels. XWindows is the API "tier" above that - which includes OpenGL and GUI API's. And then the "window managers" are what stand on top of XWindows - GNOME, KDE, WindowMaker, etc.)

An "OS" includes a kernel, API's, the UI, filesystem(s), and the basic hardware interfaces necessary to allow programs to run. So Apple's "OS", MacOS X, is a LOT more then "Darwin". Simply because you can run the kernel (Darwin) and the XWindows API and a window manager (windowmaker) on top of that doesn't mean you're running MacOS X.
 
Originally posted by PCUser
There seems to be a misunderstanding. Apple's OS isn't open source.

"My point was that Apple can afford to make their OS open source, as that isn't what they make their money with. They pretty much give it away, with the purchase of a computer. Go to any computer store that sells Apple, and just ask for a copy of OS X upgrade, it free! Microsoft on the other hand has the OS, that is their money maker. They can't make their product Open Source."

he he...i applied for this "company" hidden by a nude beach in southern silicon valley, when microsoft was getting spanked by uncle sam and was unable to go after pirateers, that open sourced windows and most likely went to redmond and stole the stuff

...in theory they were right in wanting to bring computing to everybody and bring "their" version of windows to the public for a fraction of the cost, but i did not feel a robin hood calling in me

the boss was this guy right out of "gone in 60 seconds" or "boiler room" and i suspected they might have even been federal agaents...i wonder where they are today


:p
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by PCUser
According to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

"Darwin" is the kernel. It's open source.
Click to expand...

Not that I'm really disagreeing with you, PCUser, but Drawin is really much more than a kernel. Calling Darwin a kernel is like calling a linux distribution (minus an xwindows server) a kernel.

Darwin consists of practically every part of the OS below in the graphical level (ie, below Quartz, Aqua, etc.)

This includes all of the *nix utilities and processes required to make a modern operating system run. cp, ps, the virtual memory sub-system, devices, etc, etc.

Darwin includes a kernel, but is really much, much more.

Go to www.darwin.org and look at all of the projects currently going on there. There is a lot of work happening on Darwin.

Matthew
 
Isnt the point here that you can use the Kernal whatever it is called and write appz for it and put the API calls on to it and you have an app that everyone has access to also.
And all the development tools are for free!

Yes, Apple cn afford to make OSX open source and i think thats the point, that it is open source, whatever is the reasoning, it nonetheless IS! People have been screaming for such a thing for decades!

Yea, you can get it freeBSD for the pc but there isnt any appz for it. THere isnt the link to productivity or the great API that is Aqua or the great Apple brand. There are a LOT of Linux heads sweating at the thought of all that is to come with this new OSX. The surface has yet to be even scratched. I think that in the future you will see why this is a really big thing. Not to be underplayed.
 
I stand corrected. I just looked into it again, and you are correct, "Darwin" is more then just the kernel.

However, I did make sure to check that my original point is correct. "Darwin" doesn't include the API's most people associate with MacOS X (such as Cocoa, Carbon, Classic, Quartx, QuickTime, etc, etc), but it does include more then just the Mach 3.0 kernel.

BTW, does "Darwin" include more then one console (ie, bash, tsch, etc)? I can't seem to find that on Apple's site.
 
Originally posted by PCUser

BTW, does "Darwin" include more then one console (ie, bash, tsch, etc)? I can't seem to find that on Apple's site.
Click to expand...

Darwin includes just about everything that exists under OS X under the GUI level. Nearly everything under the /usr, /etc, /var, /bin, and /sbin directories in OS X exist under Darwin. So, yes, there are other shells.

And if you don't get them with the default Darwin distribution, you can download them. Go get Fink (fink.sourceforge.net) and you can use it to download just about all open source projects available for Darwin/OS X (except for some GUI quirks for X windows, they are pretty much the same thing).

You can even download XFree86 for Darwin and run it just like a Linux/FreeBSD machine. Unfortunately, I don't think Gnome or KDE run under Darwin yet. In time...

Matthew
 
clearing stock

Does every one realize that apple is clearing its stock.
there are givaways on almost every product.

As I said before:
Everybody relax.
You shall soon be rewarded!!!!:cool:
 
Stop hogging the reefer! Nigel_T

What in the world are you talking about, I went to the apple site not a single thing has been added, changed or offer as a giveaway! There is the discount on Lcd's but that has been there for ages!

Come on man, what are you so optimistic on?
Be a little more specific, you said giveaways on almost every product, and there isnt one.

Please correct me with some details.

Hope your not talking about the Nikon or the Adobe sheesh that would be lame. Hardly a give away.
 
Re: stop moaning...

Originally posted by rekras
Dont get me wrong I'd like to see the g5 out as much as the next guy, but i cant help but kinda feel bad for apple. sure amd and intel can get fast chips out there all the time, because that's what they do. that is what they're company is entirely based on, chips. apple on the other hand has to deal with consumer desktops, laptops, pro desktops and laptops, iprograms, digital devices, wireless technology and devices, prosoftware, operating systems, and last but not least chips (i know motorolla makes the chips, but it still has a ton to do with apple). that is a sh*tload of things to deal with, and im sure i forgot some. and will all those things, all of u b*tch that u need faster mhz. i cant wait until the day when chips are so ridiculusly fast that it wont matter anymore what mhz they are. then u will all see what apple has done for us with they're innovation and hard work.

BTW- the guys who use g4s in kernels do not choose macs for the mhz, they use them for the velocity engine, energy efficiency, and stable operating system.
Click to expand...

the woz seems to think that the speed issue will top out and no longer be a major buying issue

then we can only look at features...good!
 
That may be true.

I think that it may be true that the speed issue will top out at some point but that is mainly for Pcees right now.
Pcees go really fast, too fast and crash for the average users use.

Yet Mac's still have a new OS to contend with and the performance ratio of CPU power to the needs of the OS are not being met. I think that when this next leap onto the g5 or better system buses etc is met, hopefully the Mac will have the same ability to forget about speed and forcus on other issues, not htat they dont right now.

I heard rumors that the G5 was delayed until the year 2003.
ANyone else hear something about this?
 
don't you think the late released g5 is conceivable?

the dual g4 seems to rock right now, and scale it up to 1.3 ghz then you can rock the world

but a g5 this year would be nice:)
 
heres my lil ol opinion on the whole speed will drop out:

it can happen in the short term. i a new chip comes out works its way through machines (from pro to consumers) it runs the OS well and the only apps that need more are professional app. i think it is conceivable. (by short term in mean a year to three)

but in the longer term software developers will always be asking for more from the hardware. and it starts in two places : games, Operating systems.

we are in a very funny place with apple right now, not even the top machine out there can run the os. the first thing i did when i got my hands on a dual ghz was open a window in ie and resize it... jumping and slow. about the same speed as the imac sitting right next to it (this was in the store, later i did my own test). i think the os is the main reason we are all hungry for speed right now, we want a machine that can run osx without jummpyness.

games are the other issue. games are the number one thing consumers do that tax their cpu. and as good as the current games are now, if you give me 20 minutes with a game i can come up with a dozen ways to make it better that will make it need more cpu power. games can always use more speed, and when they get it they make a better game. beta testers get told this all the time, "we could make your changes but then we would have to raise the minimum requirements so that most people couldnt use the game." i think the first death toll on any consumer machine is when you put that cd in and press install and it tells you your machine doesnt meet those minimum requirements.

i suppose if we talk way long term i could conceive of a time when speed wasnt an issue for the consumer. quantum computers anyone? or maybe not even that drastic, if simply the next advancement in chips is too expensive to put in a consuymer machine and the machines get topped out for a while. but i dont think any of those are likely to happen in our grandchildren's life time so im not worried.

i do thinkk that as soon as apple can get osx running smorrthly on all of their computer models you wont hear most people complaining anymore and begging for the next greatest thing to come out soon.
 
when i first started out as a techie, my boss told me that games drive the whole friggin high tech industry because gamers are the ones first to push the envelope

i am not a gamer but it is amazing how many "adults" buy that software at the gaming store in the mall
 
Apple must start improving their game. Obviously I am a loyal Mac fan, but I really believe that Apple may be in a a lot of trouble very soon.

Last week, I went into my local Apple Centre, and there is no stock in there! A sign outside boasted that the new iMacs were inside, but when I walked in no computer were there. I asked where the new G4s were, but they told me they had sold out there stock. They asked me if I wanted to look at their iBook or PowerBook range.

If Apple can only supply notebooks, I really think that they shouldn't bother with desktops.
 
apple does seem to be suffering from a serious supply problem right now but i think this is a temporary problem not any sort of trend. im sure it is something that people at apple are sweating over, but i hope they nip it in the bud and learn from the problem so it never happens again.

i would definitely have bought one of the new imacs last week had they been in stock. i had had a bad week, but gotten through it and walked to the store on a whim thinking i might reward myself. if it had been there i would have walked home with it. but they werent there so i had time to think i realized it wasnt worth the $1600 for a computer with a small screen a slow optical drive and an os that didnt run much better than my current machine.
 
That's odd, I said the same thing!

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
apple does seem to be suffering from a serious supply problem right now

i would definitely have bought one of the new imacs last week had they been in stock.
Click to expand...

I'm a PC user who was about to switch to Mac and couldn't find one in stock anywhere within several hours distance. I called all over the place. Since I couldn't find one, I started checking the net, and with all the hubbub about new chips and speed problems with OSX, I've decided to wait it out and see what happens with the MW's.

I'll probably still buy a mac, but I'm definately waiting. Unfortunately, thate are a lot of PC users who will see the dell ads, and well, dude, their getting a dell.

Funny, I knew I wasn't the only one mad that apple was having trouble with stocking machines. Build them and they will come!
 
if you can afford to wait right now i think its a very good idea for the buyer. apple is in an odd place right now. the os doesnt quite have all the spit and polish there yet and we seem to be a stones throw distance from a LOT of revolutionary new hardware. if you can wait 9 months for a g5 i think thats the best decision.

since i knew i was going to be waiting for awhile for the g5 i thought a cheap lil imac would hold me over... but no impulse buys.

mcrain if you can in anyway get your hands on an imac to play with i would suggest you do it. im a very picky person, and if you need a computer to hold you over i think the imac is perfect. it will be a solid machine for years to come and the speed may not bother you as it bothers me (there are a lot of people who are happy with osx on their 233 g3s!). its mostly personal preference. sounds like you have already done quite a bit of searching though. but keep an eye out for one anyway. playing with it might make you think the 3 week waitlist isnt so bad.
 
Tibook's gonna rev soon.

It's being dumped into the employee sales channel en masse and on the cheap. MWTK will see a new Tibook and probably a new LCD.:D
 
Mischief!

Your always saying that, i think you said something like that about the Ti in another thread, But you never back it up with anything, not even a reason how you came to this conclusion.

I am dying for a 1 ghz Ti book and when you say these I get sooo
uhh peeved, what are you talking about?
Dumped enmass ? where , how and why.

Puhlease, elaborate...

what employee sales channel are you talking about?

Any news on the speed bump?
 
It's like this:

Apple has an internal pricelist for employees. When a product is within a month of rev it shows up as a spike in the # of available units on that pricelist. Many of these units are custom builds that were built but the order got bumped to the next rev so Apple sells them to employees cheap.

If I told you who my source was I'd lose a friendship and they'd lose a job. I don't ask for data I just report as little as I can without getting anyone fired.

I've only said this today.I only found out on thursday.
 
Re: Mischief!

Originally posted by Grokgod
Your always saying that, i think you said something like that about the Ti in another thread, But you never back it up with anything, not even a reason how you came to this conclusion.

I am dying for a 1 ghz Ti book and when you say these I get sooo
uhh peeved, what are you talking about?
Dumped enmass ? where , how and why.

Puhlease, elaborate...

what employee sales channel are you talking about?

Any news on the speed bump?
Click to expand...

ibook got the 14 inch,

imac is with flat panel,

powermac is dual 1 gigahertz,

naturally, tibook is next, right?:D
 
Mac shortage...

Yes, I think that Apple should do something quickly about the shortages in its product lines, but look at it this way: Either they got screwed over by parts suppliers, or the demand has way exceeded their expectations.

Either way, it looks to me like a company that is growing rapidly and finding new customers at a rate even greater than in Steve's wet-dreams!

Can you say "larger market share"? :D
 
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