Sonos Complains About Apple's Restrictions on Third-Party Siri Access in Antitrust Hearing

[xyz01]

Talk about entitlement. So let me get this straight… Sonos is complaining that Apple developed a technology to be used on its hardware and now that they’ve opened the technology it’s now more restrictive. You can’t win…

What Sonos are complaining about is obvious - they already support Google's voice assistant, and Amazon's Alexa. Siri would have been nice too.

In this case, I'm surprised about Apple... The HomePod series isn't even launched worldwide due to lack of success, and AppleTV (which is) supports Siri just fine. So if Apple had allowed the AppleTV to serve this purpose, Sonos would be thrilled.

However, if the only way to support Siri is to relay to a competing device that's not going to happen - and Apple is trying to use its market position in general (Siri) to push a device that just isn't very successful. Not good. And there's obviously no technical reason for this...

 

[G46&Fbnth5]

Why not use other Apple devices like an iPad or Apple TV? Why exclusively the HomePod mini which can be seen as a competitor for Sonos.

When it comes to Siri, probably Apple wants a competitive advantage in the smart speaker market, like Sonos says, but I don’t see anything wrong, unfair or illegal in this.

 

[xyz01]

Ah Sonos, how we loved you……10 years ago when you were relevant.

You‘ve since gone out of your way to push away historic customers. Obsoleted and attempted to block old hardware. Degraded your software with each release, until it’s a function-starved lamentable mess. Lobotomised the desktop software. Stalled on any Apple Music and other integration improvements.

Of course it’s always been someone else’s fault.

You're misrepresenting it a lot.

The hardware Sonos didn't give a new major version of the software - but still supports with minor versions - was up to 15 years old. Sonos is the only company I know of that beats Apple in the context of consumer friendly software update policies. To give it a perspective: When the oldest Sonos hardware was launched, music streaming didn't exist. For many years of its existence, the main purpose of Sonos was to play your own music library of ripped music (or DRM free purchased music). And now this hardware supports Spotify, Sonos, Tidal and many, many others.

And the "blocking"/"bricking" of old hardware only happened if you explicitly allowed it, in exchange for a 30% discount on new hardware... If you didn't want to do that, no bricking happened. The idea was to offer this as a "trade-in", without having to go to a physical store.

Music integrations is, AFAIK, written by the streaming providers. Sonos provides the platform and an API.

Now, is Sonos less relevant than before? I certainly think so, but the main reason for that is Google and Amazon peppering the market with cheap voice assistant devices which also happens to play music at a lower quality. For most, that is acceptable - and since Google/Amazon aren't making these devices for the hardware revenue, they can sell their devices cheaper.

 

[Alan Wynn]

In this case, I'm surprised about Apple... The HomePod series isn't even launched worldwide due to lack of success,

Glad you know why Apple picked the countries where they launched HomePod, do you have a reference for this, or it something you pulled out of the air?

AppleTV (which is) supports Siri just fine.

AppleTV is also not available in every country, despite your statement. It also uses a different version of Siri than that used by the HomePod/HomePod mini, and it expects to have a screen on which to display answers, something not available on Sonos devices (nor to be expected on any of the other devices that will be implementing this).

So if Apple had allowed the AppleTV to serve this purpose, Sonos would be thrilled.

Can you provide some proof of this? It would however create development and user experience problems for Apple and its users. Siri on AppleTV has different functionality than Siri on HomePod/HomePod mini (on top of the issue caused by the screen requirements). This would mean one of two things both of which would be bad:

1. Apple would support third party Siri only on the AppleTV, meaning that they would need to redesign the software to eliminate the screen requirement, but it would also mean that there would be different smart speaker support depending on whether it was a HomePod/HomePod mini or a smart device talking to an AppleTV.
2. Apple would support third party Siri on both the AppleTV and the HomePod mini. That would require they redesign the software on the AppleTV, and in mixed environments, with some devices connecting to one and some to the other the inconsistent experience would be awful.

However, I do not believe that Sonos would be happy that solution either, but I will not presume to speak for them.

However, if the only way to support Siri is to relay to a competing device that's not going to happen - and Apple is trying to use its market position in general (Siri) to push a device that just isn't very successful.

Actually, the HomePod mini is quite successful based on all the media reports. However, it is really hard to argue that Apple is using its incredibly weak position in intelligent assistant to leverage anything. More likely, the only people who would want to use Siri like this would be people who have already purchased a HomePod or HomePod mini and everyone else would rather use Alexa or Google Home.

Not good. And there's obviously no technical reason for this...

Sorry wrong again. I already explained the technical reason, so I will not repeat it.

 

[6787872]

What ungrateful jerks. You know what Sonos, go make YOUR OWN iOS that has the audience that iOS has and then you won't need them

so much cringe in these replies. every single minor disagreement: "make your own ecosystem"

 

[6787872]

Glad you know why Apple picked the countries where they launched HomePod, do you have a reference for this, or it something you pulled out of the air?

AppleTV is also not available in every country, despite your statement. It also uses a different version of Siri than that used by the HomePod/HomePod mini, and it expects to have a screen on which to display answers, something not available on Sonos devices (nor to be expected on any of the other devices that will be implementing this).

Can you provide some proof of this? It would however create development and user experience problems for Apple and its users. Siri on AppleTV has different functionality than Siri on HomePod/HomePod mini (on top of the issue caused by the screen requirements). This would mean one of two things both of which would be bad:

1. Apple would support third party Siri only on the AppleTV, meaning that they would need to redesign the software to eliminate the screen requirement, but it would also mean that there would be different smart speaker support depending on whether it was a HomePod/HomePod mini or a smart device talking to an AppleTV.
2. Apple would support third party Siri on both the AppleTV and the HomePod mini. That would require they redesign the software on the AppleTV, and in mixed environments, with some devices connecting to one and some to the other the inconsistent experience would be awful.

However, I do not believe that Sonos would be happy that solution either, but I will not presume to speak for them.

Actually, the HomePod mini is quite successful based on all the media reports. However, it is really hard to argue that Apple is using its incredibly weak position in intelligent assistant to leverage anything. More likely, the only people who would want to use Siri like this would be people who have already purchased a HomePod or HomePod mini and everyone else would rather use Alexa or Google Home.

Sorry wrong again. I already explained the technical reason, so I will not repeat it.

they cancelled it. that's enough evidence of it being a failed product.

 

[One2Grift]

Now, is Sonos less relevant than before? I certainly think so, but the main reason for that is Google and Amazon peppering the market with cheap voice assistant devices which also happens to play music at a lower quality. For most, that is acceptable - and since Google/Amazon aren't making these devices for the hardware revenue, they can sell their devices cheaper.

This is an excellent point. This is what some Cons. Elec. companies choose to do, put out models in quantity on all levels of the consumer space. And There’s nothing wrong with that.
They’re huge companies so they can afford to make nothing (or even lose money, Microsoft for years lost money on x box hardware…s/w made the profit) but ultimately make good profit from the a new user=business domino effect. There’s nothing wrong with that either. I understand Sonos frustration with that but there isn’t a legislative fix (no Google and Amazon! You can’t accept no profit to make profit on user follow up purchases?).

I feel for Sonos but their argument has to be better than the big company with deep pockets is selling too many at lower prices. There needs to be Google exec emails saying they’re purposefully flooding the market drastically below cost to put another company out f business. Yet if even other competitors are selling in the nearby ballpark in price? Sonos is up an excrement filled water way without any mean of propulsion. Their argument is simply for show (a la Epic).


This also segues to the Apple discussion as a cons. elec. company. They choose not to put out models in quantity at all levels of the consumer space. They go for mid/upper mid to the upper part of the consumer space. Their domino effect is profitable hardware ->sticky user eco. Nothing wrong with that either. Sonos saying Apple shouldn’t be allowed to have device x in the chain of their well known tight eco is a tough sell despite appearances.

 

[passatgt]

It's like you guys didn't even read the article before commenting.

Yes, sorry, i just skimmed through it looking for this info, but missed it. In this case, i'm siding with Sonos

 

[One2Grift]

they cancelled it. that's enough evidence of it being a failed product.

Homepod was canceled so IMHO that is fair to suggest it’s a failed product. But they have the mini iteration and by that standard(and it’s still in production) mini isn’t a failed product. Further, I suspect we’ll see a HomePod mini “pro” or something of that nature in the near-ish future. With all these companies working on a standards based smart home protocol(s) I’d be shocked if Apple doesn’t see that as a profitable part of the eco to expand.
Apple makes about 55% ? revenue from iPhone sales. I believe macs and iPads make up 25%. Most of the rest is devices, wearables, services. The iPhone Mac iPad revenue is obviously singularly galactic massive but they are considered mature markets. The glib expectation is their revenue will edge up but ebb and flow with small overall growth. But that last section of revenue (devices wearables and services) has clearly seen Apple trying to expand. Much Smaller revenue comparatively but incrementally increase revenue of each item in this group — while creating the bigger stickier eco. The massive iPhone user base can be stepped into the eco and possibly stay in. So Based on Apple’s strategy, i’d expect the mini to continue, a mini pro and who knows what other things (air tags was a recent one) that a number of will be smart home oriented. I’d also Expect Apple to up the AppleTV+ offering (services) and the devices (maybe vr glasses) and surprisingly they are now going to see if FaceTime can get some share of video. Expect Apple to be going after this group, including smart home, in a doggedness they haven’t shown before.

 

[Pezimak]

Personally I’m really struggling with his comment of Google and Amazon copying others products and selling them at a discount? If I recall correctly, Amazon was first to market with a smart speaker? And I also don’t recall anyone apart from Amazon and Google offering a smart speaker with screen built in. Apart from Lenovo I think?
If Sonos want to invest the time and money into developing an AI and it’s infrastructure then they are more then welcome to, I can appreciate the criticism of Siri requiring an Apple smart speaker to work even with a Sonos system, but find the other criticisms rather confusing to say the least.

 

[LeeW]

It's the fact any 3rd party would actually want Siri that surprises me most.

 

[Nozuka]

Seems a bit weird that you can't use an Apple TV or iPad for this, like any other Home features.
But maybe it's in development...

 

[threesixty360]

I like SONOS a lot. I have a playbase and 3 speakers. I like that they are a small focussed company fighting the big electronics companies. And doing it out of the USA as well. Great stuff!

However
a: I think the reason why google wouldnt want sonos being able to access multiple voice services at the same time is that it would mean sonos' product performs better than theirs! Why would you let that happen? No other device (homepod, echo or google hi-fi) allow you to say "hey siri, hey google or alexa" interchangeably.

b: no one wants a trojan horse. The fact that sonos could deal with any service could eventually make sonos the standard and not google, amazon or apple. They're not stupid. Google got into many winning positions by using the trojan horse strategy. They wont let it happen to them.

c: If you have a problem with Matter then you should have a problem with WebKit too? (the Browser engine pretty much all modern browsers use or at least deviate from). Without webkit we would be in an utter mess in terms of the web, even with the ww2c standards. I see Matter as doing the same thing.

The reason is that for standards to really work you need companies who are "eating their own dogfood". Not just saying .. "do this and that" and sit back and wait for adoption. Apple & Google will move home automation for further and faster than any global standards committee. And allowing individual companies like sonos to roll their own would just be a disaster in the long term. We've been their before haven't we?

d) Finally, I missed the part where Sonos over the last 10-15yrs have opened up their protocol to third party devices? Surely that happened ??? lol .

The reality is its all business. I'm kind of tired of companies talking about fairness and morals when no one is breaking any rules, they are just trying to make money. Stop trying to get the government in as your "business partner".

 

[Phaseangle]

Here we go again, but now all the fanboys can add Sonos to the list of companies that they hate. I wonder if I missed any.

Amazon: Bad
Google: Bad
Microsoft: Bad
Samsung: Bad
Sonos: Bad
Spotify: Bad
Tile: Bad

Apple: Gods.

Facebook for sure

 

[krebphone]

Some government mouth breathers should investigate Sonos for charging ridiculous prices for tin can sounding speakers that they try to brick when they decide it’s time for you to upgrade…

 

[ericwn]

What ungrateful jerks. You know what Sonos, go make YOUR OWN iOS that has the audience that iOS has and then you won't need them

Yeah how dare they show criticism publicly without getting our approval first!

 

[ericwn]

SONOS is just being petty.

I smell jealousy. Why not work on improving your products and introduce innovation, dominate the market that way instead?

Oh you mean other innovation than being the first smart home audio platform on the mass market?

 

[ericwn]

This post has been reported for making too much sense.

That would be a rare occurrence.

 

[ericwn]

Didn’t Apple just announce that Siri will be everywhere?

Yup you just need at least one HomePod to achieve it.

 

[ericwn]

Sonos request to much info when you set it up, they don't need it!

How’s that linked to the topic?

 

[sirozha]

So everyone hates Siri but damned if they don’t want access to it.

Nice comment. The thought of Apple not being able to compete with Sonos on the level ground and instead using Siri to push the Apple speaker in the home never crossed your mind, of course.

The reason that a lot of people want to have Siri in a smart speaker is not necessarily because of Siri being a great assistant (which it sucks at) but due to people having invested in HomeKit devices that can only be controlled with Siri.

Personally, I use Siri exclusively to control HomeKit devices and not as a smart assistant because Siri is the dumbest assistant of all of them.

 

[theonlyeyes]

Siri work only on Apple’s devices. It have best privacy’s features. Other brands use different kind of policies. About Apple is not monopoly. Apple don’t dike Sonos in any way to create their digital assistance. They don’t limited Siri to work on few brands. It’s work only on Apple’s product. We see a lot of absurd complaints thanks to the disposability of antitrust to go against big tech without make any distinctions between products/service. Who is exapande their operating system on many brands possible , like google, isn’t not similar to who create their own products and set rules only for that.

 

[sirozha]

I love my Sonos home theatre set up but what they seem to be missing is that anyone who willingly wants Siri on their Sonos system most likely already have HomePods. I have HomePod’s in every room except the laundry room and living room. The living room has a Sonos Arc with rears and sub and I would love to get it to connect to Siri through one of my HomePods.

For now the kitchen HomePod mini is close enough that I don’t need it. On one hand, why can’t Apple use Apple TV or iPad’s to relay Siri to Sonos? They want you to buy a non-Sonos speaker if you’re in the Sonos ecosystem to see the difference. On the other hand, just give Apple and Sonos fanboys what they want and accept anyone who wants Siri on a Sonos product already has a HomePod or would get one to have deeper Apple integration.

I don’t have a single HomePod. I bought two and returned them. Yet, I have close to 40 HomeKit devices.

 

[SurferPup]

Sonos doesn't like Apples restrictions on Siri why don't they create their own AI?

 

[sirozha]

Probably the fact that they know nobody will buy it.

What’s preventing Apple from building a home theater platform?