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spoonie1972

macrumors 6502a
Aug 17, 2012
573
153
YES!!

Even wayback in the day, SoundForge V4 was fantastic for wav editing, and CD Architect was better than anything else i've ever used - from anyone - to make a redbook CD.

Shutup and take my money! /Fry
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Sound Forge was great in 2000.

Sound Forge is pointless in 2012. There are excellent DAWs and plugins abounds to handle the heavy lifting on basically anything this can do (and way more).

The fact that you even mention "DAWs" shows that you have no idea what SF even does.

So what mac app does what SF does in terms of destructive editing?


Am I right in presuming SF is designed to be a 2 track mix down summing application with global editing?

Would the editors include a brick wall limiter, multi-band compressor and parametric eq?

Would SF be able to generate enough DSP power from iMac processors to make a quality master?

If so, could SF resolve the preference for "out of the box" mastering? That would definitely speed up the process.

Yes to all those, it has a ton of plugins included and any decent mac should be able to handle it easily (although it depends on what you mean by "out of the box" mastering - obviously if a guy is mastering through thousands of dollars worth of analog outboard gear, no software app is going to replace that). And SF isn't just limited to 2 track, it's main use is single files as opposed to multitrack, but those files can be surround wavs as well.
 

Noiseboy

macrumors regular
Dec 25, 2002
213
18
Lurking nearby.
I've just taken on the job of editing the archives of a radio show to a different clock and segment count which is a change for me, I'm normally a FOH engineer.
I bought Peak LE6 a year ago for something else but it seemed to be a processor hog and rather glitchy and to be honest I'm not surprised they went to the wall. I already had Amadeus Pro and that wasn't the smoothest of sailing either so for this new project I downloaded Audacity and it's working ridiculously well. However if SF is all you guys are cracking it up to be I'll dive in as soon as they release it, if it compares to the Windblows pricing it's not exactly a fortune. I look forward to it's arrival.
It's funny how people who have no clue about the difference between a DAW and a dedicated wave editor are perfectly happy to give us their opinions of what we should use. I have PT 10 but it's not appropriate.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,192
1,441
Having recently finished an album with Logic Pro, I have to admit its wav editor SUCKS. I think I had a better waveform editor on my old Amiga 3000 than what Logic provides (providing one used a 16-bit audio card with it). This would seem to be a good area for Apple to upgrade in the next Logic (assuming they're not planning on another disaster in the form of "Logic X" or whatever). There's no reason Logic couldn't be improved in this area. Of course, if Sound Forge could/can operate as a plugin module, you wouldn't hardly have to know the difference.
 

Liquidstate

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
87
0
Pacific Northwest
In-the-box mastering issues...

Pro Tools on an iMac gets the recording and mixing job done for me. Enduring the learning curve and figuring out the work-arounds was certainly no fun, but I got through it.

However, mastering is still an issue. Pro Tools, in my opinion, is designed to manipulate audio files as cleanly as possible. I usually use 24/96 and knock it down in the mastering process.

But for me, mastering requires that big sound, combined with sequencing and final balances of volume, eq and limiting. And in my experience, that's not something Pro Tools is capable of doing, because it was never meant to do that.

I agree that no Mac app (at least yet) has the DSP power of dedicated outboard mastering gear.

From what I can gather, Sound Forge is meant more for video editing than mastering, and given Sony's deep background in pro video, that would make sense.

I'm not unhappy with my current process, but it would be great to be able to do it all in the Mac.

Given the number of people making their own recordings in project studios, one would think that some enterprising company would figure out how to make an effective dedicated mastering app.

However, I'm gathering from this thread that there still isn't a way to do this.

Am I missing something obvious? Or is it just the way it is?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
From what I can gather, Sound Forge is meant more for video editing than mastering, and given Sony's deep background in pro video, that would make sense.

Nope, no video editing at all (just the ability to do audio editing on movies and sync audio with them). It's totally an audio editing and mastering app.
 

Liquidstate

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
87
0
Pacific Northwest
Thanks to all...

Thanks to all for answering my questions!

I'll look into Sound Forge for mastering when I can upgrade. Tim Cook said new iMacs before 2013, but given the current focus on gizmos, SFX: audible sigh.
 

cosmolv

macrumors regular
Aug 18, 2012
118
32
Latvia
Great news! Finally Sony done it! :) super great news!
For those who here are claiming about the meaning of SoundForge while Pro tools are - are you serious! gives me thinking what the hack you know about music editing stuff? :) :D

Mostly SoundForge and similar Tools are used in Radio, TV's for voice editing, compressing - why not using Pro tools or other similar?
Because of complex interface and multitracks. (but this is question about taste) But mostly in Radios for voice recording, compressing are used SoundForge (or similar tools)

I working in big TV company and every day we need to convert and reconvert, finalize and give final touch to lot of little sound files, we use TwistedWave - because this is the most simplest and stable mac audio redactor tool, then it sends to video engineer for futher processing with video - i'm happy when SounForge will be available for MAC - great news!

And finally, this is not a audio creating and mixing tool, this is "Audio Redactor"

----------

Thanks to all for answering my questions!

I'll look into Sound Forge for mastering when I can upgrade. Tim Cook said new iMacs before 2013, but given the current focus on gizmos, SFX: audible sigh.

oh, thats true :D
 

Liquidstate

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
87
0
Pacific Northwest
Thanks for the added info, Cosmolv!

I thought that's what Sound Forge was for, but being entirely in the Mac and Pro Tools environment, I had no idea what it was for (which I initially admitted).

Now I can go talk to my audio guys without getting "that look."
 

Macist

macrumors 6502a
Mar 13, 2009
783
458
Hardly a major bit of software, is it?

Is SoundForge a full MIDI+audio DAV these days?

I remember it years ago when it was just something for tinkering with WAVs.

I'd like to know what the roadmap is for Logic, though.
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Hardly a major bit of software, is it?

It most certainly is major.

And it's a totally different kind of software. Would someone say that since Photoshop doesn't do video, it's hardly a major bit of software?
 

VenusianSky

macrumors 65816
Aug 28, 2008
1,290
47
Hardly a major bit of software, is it?

Is SoundForge a full MIDI+audio DAV these days?

I remember it years ago when it was just something for tinkering with WAVs.

I'd like to know what the roadmap is for Logic, though.

For the thousandth time on this thread, Sound Forge is an audio file editor, not a DAW, multitrack recorder, MIDI recorder, etc. It is for recording and editing audio files at a microscopic level. It also just so happens to support VST plugins (particularly for effects) and includes a set of its own. It also includes a high quality noise reduction plugin and "CD Artchitect" for authoring and mastering.
 

TableSyrup

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2012
312
1
It also includes a high quality noise reduction plugin and "CD Artchitect" for authoring and mastering.

Does the newest version still include CD Architect????

Which Version??? Still 5.2d ????

I'm gonna be very very very disappointed if they don't make CDA Mac compatible....

I've been begging for it for a long time.....

As well as new features to be rolled into it.... it's so close.... I absolutely love the workflow and layout.
Unfortunately, with Waves 7, I lost waves compatibility within CDA
(Waves stopped DX support in 7)

I hope they update it and support VST/AU

This would be the best thing for me since PT10

EDIT:

Ok, tech specs for Pro 10 mention VST support, and inclusion of CDA, but no mention if CDA supports VST
Can anyone confirm if the Bundled CD Architect supports VST????

Also, the tech specs say CDA 5.2 is included, but the video shows what appears to be a new build????
My CDA 5.2d does not have space to the left of the timeline with the 1- and 2- indicators
5.2d is still the only separate build available for purchase.....

Can someone with this run their CDA and tell me what build it is, in 'About CDA' ??????????????
 
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milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
SF 10 has been out a year or two. The specs on their website are for that version, looks like they haven't updated it at all for the upcoming mac version.

I assume along with mac, there will be a PC version 11. Once they announce more they'll probably update the info on their website then. And until that happens, nobody really knows specifics of what's included beyond what you can see in the videos.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,192
1,441
But for me, mastering requires that big sound, combined with sequencing and final balances of volume, eq and limiting. And in my experience, that's not something Pro Tools is capable of doing, because it was never meant to do that.

I agree that no Mac app (at least yet) has the DSP power of dedicated outboard mastering gear.

From what I can gather, Sound Forge is meant more for video editing than mastering, and given Sony's deep background in pro video, that would make sense.

I'm not unhappy with my current process, but it would be great to be able to do it all in the Mac.

Given the number of people making their own recordings in project studios, one would think that some enterprising company would figure out how to make an effective dedicated mastering app.

Admittedly I'm no expert on mastering software, but I had no issues mixing and mastering my own album that I also recorded through Logic Pro WITH Logic Pro and that's just using a mouse (you can attach dedicated mixing boards to the computer if you want all the slider and pan-pots, etc. to physically play with). The amount of sheer filters, pan-pots, level-editing, EQ and possible spatial DSP settings are simply massive in Logic Pro. I had no beef with the mastering side of things when making my own album. My only quips were with literal WAV editing (the WAV editor button in Logic is so primitive; I had 5x the effects and splicing (to a buffer) options in the old program I used on an Amiga 3000 than what is available here and that's kind of sad, really given how advanced everything else is in Logic. I literally needed NOTHING additional in terms of outboard processing during the project beyond what I had for various sounds already present in my existing outboard synths (I used quite a few Logic software synths as well).

My end results sound better than most studio albums I've heard. It's not quite Dark Side of the Moon SACD quality, but it's clean and crystal clear and not bad for only around $10k of gear in total (half of which was my editing midi workstation/piano which is furniture grade with real moving hammers to feel like an actual grand since I hate the feel of typical synths) and the fact that this is my first attempt at a commercial grade album.

I've never used Pro Tools or Sound Forge so I cannot comment on their ability to handle mastering duties, but other than the few times I wanted a bit more control over wav editing and the desire for more quality ready-to-go synth patches and sounds to pick from, I had no real complaints about Logic Pro at all. I did have a crash once in a blue moon (most were after running all day or several days/weeks at a time and happened when attempting to bounce it to a WAV track (reboot always fixed it), but I never lost any music progress (there was always an at-instant backup available to reload on top of my own saves).
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
My only quips were with literal WAV editing

That's exactly what SF's strength is. I haven't seen a multitrack DAW that has the wave editing and processing features SF has.

And it's not just for albums, there are many people doing radio, video games, and plenty of other applications where SF is a perfect fit.
 

Liquidstate

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
87
0
Pacific Northwest
Logic and Sound Forge for mastering...

Since I come from a Pro Tools environment and a couple of decades as a media creative, I'm trying to figure out the limitations of my home studio.

Here's why I'm asking these questions. I am close to being able to do everything myself, which is really cool for a control phreak! I don't have a project studio with racks of expensive gear. I have an old underpowered iMac running PT (ah, work-arounds!) in my apartment. I'm getting ready to do a total system upgrade when (sigh) the new iMacs are out and there's enough time for Apple to stabilize them blahblah.

I try to compensate for my lack of equipment (and budget) by spending a lot of time on my mixes. And recently, I was able to significantly elevate my tracks. This has allowed me to get much deeper into the mastering process, to the point where I'm finally able to get some of that big cushy mastering sound.

But I'd like to go deeper into the sonic details. I can hear what I want to do in my head, and I can even estimate the Q, frequency, level and limiter settings. But I may have hit the limit of my equipment. That's why I'm asking these admittedly ignorant questions.

I've never considered mastering in Logic. So maybe that could be an in-the-box option, perhaps along with Sound Forge.

Anyway, this thread is helping me to sort it out.
 

McBeats

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2007
728
5
erf
If I didn't already switch over from Peak to AUDITION CS6, I'd be way more stoked about this... in my opinion a few years too late. But, nevertheless, awesome its now for mac.
 

TableSyrup

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2012
312
1
There appears to be a lot of confusion here about 'mastering'

Pro Tools and Logic are for Recording and Mixing. They are multitrack recording digital audio workstation softwares.

You record, and mix, in these softwares (and Digital Performer, Sonar, CuBase, etc etc), as well as compose, edit, produce....

You MASTER elsewhere.

Mastering is not a very involved or magical process.

One part of mastering is making ALL the tracks of a particular project gel.... same tone, feel, volume, etc.... so it doesn't sound like every song was done separately as different projects.... it's making it feel like an 'album'

The other is making everything sound as good as possible. A final tweak. Working simply with the rendered/bounced stereo file of the track.

Very often, I will have to send clients back to the mix stage to fix certain elements of the MIX before I am able to effectively perform a proper master.

I guess I'm no genius or expert about this, but this is what I see in the industry, from major labels, to networks, to studios, to mastering houses, to library firms.
 

Liquidstate

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
87
0
Pacific Northwest
Re: You MASTER elsewhere

A very good summary of the process. This is exactly what I do.

Because I've only recorded and mixed within the walled garden of Mac Pro Tools, and then mastered with some other stuff, I wanted to push aside my preconceptions and find out if anyone had an in-the-box way to master in a Mac.

Since some posters advocated Sound Forge or Logic, neither of which I know anything about, I needed to keep my mind open.

My conclusion from this thread is that it is possible, but it's probably like wrestling an octopus.

I'm about to upgrade my maxed out Mac system, but it looks to me like I'll be continuing to use my existing mastering process.

Thanks to all for the clarifications.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,192
1,441
There appears to be a lot of confusion here about 'mastering'

Pro Tools and Logic are for Recording and Mixing. They are multitrack recording digital audio workstation softwares.

You record, and mix, in these softwares (and Digital Performer, Sonar, CuBase, etc etc), as well as compose, edit, produce....

You MASTER elsewhere.

You can master quite easily from Logic. I had no issues what-so-ever achieving a consistent, clean, clear sound across all tracks. The final result sounds great on everything from headphones to my car stereo to my home theater to my high-end 2-channel system. It's not that difficult if you can tell good from garbage and I was just using a mouse and keyboard. Logic has all the hooks to connect pro sound mixing gear for that matter. Now if someone prefers to use something like Sound Forge, fine, but the WAV editor was the only thing in Logic that left me wanting and frankly, I had only basic editing to do there anyway (since I'm also the artist, I can just as easily record another take if I need to 'fix' a note rather than play copy/paste type games, etc. that one might have to do if you're handed a project to mix and master that's already been recorded to their liking.


Mastering is not a very involved or magical process.

All the more reason it's nothing that can't be done from within Logic.

One part of mastering is making ALL the tracks of a particular project gel.... same tone, feel, volume, etc.... so it doesn't sound like every song was done separately as different projects.... it's making it feel like an 'album'

The other is making everything sound as good as possible. A final tweak. Working simply with the rendered/bounced stereo file of the track.

This is where many "pro" projects get RUINED by someone who thinks they can make it sound a certain way and all it ends up sounding like is someone cranked the freaking bass too high or too low and it's either boomy on a system that has proper bass or so anemic sounding that it seems like you're listening to an AM radio band. Then there's all those albums that are compressed to DEATH and are clipping all over the place (although often that's a result of the record company execs dictating to them that it better be LOUD on the radio).

Yeah, I think a good band would be often better off learning to do basic mixing and mastering themselves so they can at least keep a leash on a mastering engineer that wants to get a little too creative with their music. I mean it's not freaking rocket science, after all. A good ear is the most valuable tool one can have.

Obviously, I have an advantage with my indie project of having total creative control from start to finish since I play all the parts and instruments and mix and master all the tracks. The album sounds like *I* want it to, not some situation like where Roger Waters insists that songs like "Apples and Oranges" were "effing good songs" that were utterly ruined in production mastering (not hard to do if you change the instrument balance of a song as that can completely change its character).
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Because I've only recorded and mixed within the walled garden of Mac Pro Tools, and then mastered with some other stuff, I wanted to push aside my preconceptions and find out if anyone had an in-the-box way to master in a Mac.

You can master on mac or PC, and you can master in Pro Tools although SF is better suited for that in terms of functionality.

Nobody is going to agree on specifically what processing gear or software is needed for optimal mastering. There are guys doing it with tens of thousands of dollars of outboard gear (much of it analog/tube). And there are guys doing it in the box with lots of expensive plugins. And then there are guys doing it in the box with plugins that aren't that expensive and still getting pretty decent results.

The biggest part of mastering is having the right ears to do it. It's also crucial to have the right monitors and put them in a space that is acoustically sound. Otherwise, the best gear in the world isn't going to make it sound better if it's not being heard properly and the wrong decisions are being made.

And even in the case of someone who is a great mixer and masterer, it's smart to have someone else do the mastering just to get a fresh set of ears on it.

So for someone mixing in PT, I think getting SF does have the potential to make mastering an easier process. Depending on what is needed, certain third party plugins may help as well. But new software isn't going to magically make mixes sound better, it still comes down to ears and skill. A great mastering engineer is going to get a better result with the cheapest plugins than a guy without much skill using the fanciest gear available.


My conclusion from this thread is that it is possible, but it's probably like wrestling an octopus.

I'd say it the other way around. You can master in PT but it's like wrestling an octopus. Using something like SF is much more suited to the mastering part. But if you're happy with your results, stick with it. Maybe there will be a downloadable demo of SF and you can try it out.


You can master quite easily from Logic.

No question you can get good sounding mixes from Logic. But there are things SF can do much more easily than Logic, specifically editing and tweaking bounced files (as you mention, editing wavs). Some people won't work in a way where they want to do that, but for anyone who needs the functionality, having it available is huge.

All the more reason it's nothing that can't be done from within Logic.

True, it can be done, but along the same lines, there's no reason it can't be done in Garage Band. It's not a question of if it can be done, the difference between different apps is the features and how easily various things can be done.

Then there's all those albums that are compressed to DEATH and are clipping all over the place (although often that's a result of the record company execs dictating to them that it better be LOUD on the radio).

There are bad mastering guys just like there are people bad at any job. Mastering just requires finding someone who is good, and someone who specifically is good with that kind of material. And a good mastering engineer will be ecstatic to work with an artist who wants to preserve the dynamic range instead of insisting on compressing it to death. But the right mastering engineer can put on the finishing touches that make a good mix sound great.
 

cosmolv

macrumors regular
Aug 18, 2012
118
32
Latvia
Hardly a major bit of software, is it?

Is SoundForge a full MIDI+audio DAV these days?

I remember it years ago when it was just something for tinkering with WAVs.

I'd like to know what the roadmap is for Logic, though.

SoundForge and similar tools are like color correction tools in video editing - in nowdays many video tools offering built in color correction, but not all them give easy and fast taste except Avid - but all by that many choice a seperate color correction software like DaVinci ReSolve.

Same in audio editing - if you wish lightweight and fast finalizing tool on the run for commpression, cuting and giving easy final touch - you will need SoundForge - it is Pioneer in audio redacting systems.

Little history - SoundForge was originaly designed by SonicFoundry, Sony buy licence - i think it was starting with SoundForge 6 with name Sony.

/sorry for my bad English/ :)
 

TableSyrup

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2012
312
1

Well, we could go on about this forever, but my final point stands... and there is a reason that every professional outfit in the world sends their stuff out - or separately masters internally. And to boot, you can't author CD's within Pro Tools (Not sure about Logic - Blend/fade and Track Markers??? CD Text??? ISRC???, EAN/UPC??? DDP's??? Etc???)

Anyway....

This whole thing has been driving me INSANE waiting

I really really really want CD Architect for Mac.

The very second it's available, I own it (As long as I can use my Waves plugs)
 
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