Sony HDR-HC7 HDV Camcorder

[Multimedia]

Simple Question To A Complex Decision Process. HV20 Is Shipping Now

I have a simple question. Buy the HC7 now or wait till May and buy either the HV20 or HC7?

This is a very personal preference thing. The good news is Canon HV20 started shipping on Monday March 19. I just found out after I started a brand new Canon HV20 Thread a couple of hours ago.

I have been a loyal Sony customer since the dawn of personal camcorders beginning with a Video 8 camera before I graduated to Hi8, then DV and now HDV. After shooting for about 3 years with the VX-1000, my own experience with the Canon XL1 was not good. Turns out I don't like large or even small big cameras like the VX-1000.

Ever since the TRV-900, I have never wanted a VX-1000 size camera again. Well that puts me in a very unusual class of pros because all the pros are of the opinion that if you use a small camcorder like the HC7 you won't be taken seriously. And for the most part they are right. But for candid shooting, I think anything bigger than a HC7 or the TRV-900/950 is asking for trouble. And I am primarily a candid shooter.

But still, I may wind up with a Sony HVR-V1U if I give up on the small-size feature-retarded preference over a-little-larger full-featured reality I must have to get all jobs done. Maybe one needs both to do different jobs at different times or the HC7 winds up being the B-Roll for the V1U main tent work. But I am 100% certain it would not be any of the Canon Pro options because they all lack HDMI out. Yes the HV20 has HDMI while all the other Canon camcorders do not. Crazy. Oh all the Canon the pro models DO have LANC ports. Go figure.

The CamcorderInfo.com review is full of contradictions and conflicted opinions. I sure wish we could all get an audience with the engineers in Tokyo. Seems like they come up with changes for the sake of changes lately - particularly in the case of the little focus knob instead of the traditional wheel on the lens barrel. That's particularly weird I know.

You know the fact is I am currently leaning toward also buying a HV20 just so I can use it as a deck for my HC7. HV20 is also an analog to digital converter which the HC7 is NOT. That is, it can receive your old analog VHS and 8/Hi8 analog playback and record them on DV tape OR even pass the digital converted signal on to another digital recorder instead. So if you will want to do that, that's another point for wanting the HV20.

And who can forget HV20 will sell for $300 less list ($1,099 in April) which means it will start at street below what the HC7 street will be by then - definitely below $1,000. Could start at $900 or less on day one.

One unique feature the HC7 has no other camcorder in its class has is the ability record in 3 second bursts of high speed so upon playback you get 12 seconds of slow motion. So if you'd like to be able to shoot golf or tennis swings or a horse running that will playback in slow motion, the HC7 is definitley the choice for you. I am certain the HV20 cannot do this.

Oh now or May? That's a personal call only you can make. I don't see how anyone here could tell you what to do. Do you really? I think both cameras are excellent. I have known about the HV20 since January 31st. But as soon as I saw it has no LANC port I put it out of contention. Now that's just me. Everyone says that is a feature few ever use. So fine. In that case I think anyone who is not convinced HC7 is great and doesn't care about remote zoom control should wait and see. I am not really a Canon guy. I own the XL1 and I don't like it. So I am very partial to tiny. And if the HC7 is nothing else it is definitely tiny. Oh I know the Canon HV10 is tiniest. But it not only also has no LANC port, it doesn't have HDMI Out either which the HV20 does have. So while I love tiny, that's within a certain minimum feature set I want:

• 1080i
• HDMI Out
• LANC Port
• Manual Audio Gain-External Input
• Top Loader
• Best In Class Sensor(s) Preferably 3 but so far that ain't happening this year.
• FireWire i/o
• Mac Editing Software Support - so far only HDV support not AVCHD yet.
• Best in Class Codec - AVCHD Codecs are all gonna suck compared to HDV and DVCPro HD.

 

[danieljoelle]

While I agree it's a good idea if you can to wiait for the 2007 crop of new sets, pretty sure the wide color gamut in the 2006 models including my Samsung LN-S4095 also display x.v.Color. Pretty sure x.v.Color is just a new marketing buzz word for wide color gamut which both Sony and Samsung top of the line 2006 models do have.

Unfortunately, the new xvYCC color gamut is currently only available on the $33,000 70" Sony KDL-70XBR3. You're right about Sony using it's own buzzword "x.v.Color" to indicate the same thing. More Sony sets with xvYCC to follow this summer.
Toshiba is also coming out with sets with the same technology (ColorBurst):
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/news/newsarticle.asp?newsid=136

I was raised in AZ, moved to IL 5 years ago. My wife is from here!

 

[Crazysah]

@ Multimedia; Thanks alot for that.

I need to ask you one or 2 things...

1. Does rhw HC7 have a USB cable? Or only firewire?
2. On the HV20... how good are the still photos?
3. To take still photos... do you have to switch to still mode or what?
4. Does Canon HV20 do 1080p?
5. What exactly is LANC?

Can you tell me some advantages of the HC7 over the HV20 and vica-versa? (in just features terms)

Thanks a million.
Crazysah

PS - Have to make my decision latest by Sunday.

 

[Multimedia]

5 Easy Answers

@ Multimedia; Thanks alot for that.

I need to ask you one or 2 things...

1. Does rhw HC7 have a USB cable? Or only firewire?

Both. FW for video USB for still pictures.

2. On the HV20... how good are the still photos?

Very Good. No replacement for dedicated best still camera. Examples are in the thread. READ THE THREAD.

3. To take still photos... do you have to switch to still mode or what?

No you can take stills while shooting video or better stills with video off in still mode.

4. Does Canon HV20 do 1080p?

Nobody does 1080p in this class.

5. What exactly is LANC?

It's how you hook a cable from a zoom controler on the handle of your Sony Tripod or a Varizoom Lens Controller so you can remotely run record-stop, take a still photo, power on-off and variable zoom speed-direction instead of ONLY on the camera. You also must have the LANC port to run your HDV camcorder in an underwater housing like the Sony SPK-HCC Sportspack. A LANC connected cable is how you get to use all the external controls on the outside of the housing while your camera is safe and dry inside for your unique underwater HD videography. For people like me who think this capability is essential, the Canon HV20 cannot be considered as a primary camera just because that port is missing on it.

I tripple checked with Varizoom and they confirm there is no alternative way to remotely run that camera from a tripod handle Lens Controller. I am thinking about it as a DECK for my HC7 (costs less, saves HC7 heads and motor) which I also might use as a primary camcorder, sometimes, in situations where the remote operation is not needed.

Can you tell me some advantages of the HC7 over the HV20 and vica-versa? (in just features terms)

It's in the thread. Study the thread. I gotta go cause my HC7 just arrived and I have to take a series of pictures of me opening it up for y'all now.

 

[Crazysah]

So you are saying that that HV20 is better than the HC7 except for the LANC port?

Also... how much better are the still photos on the HC7 than the HV20?

Please someone... give me plus points and negative points of both cameras?

Also.. I am living in India. Does it matter which version of the camera I buy? As in PAL/NTSE?

 

[Multimedia]

I Did Not Write The Canon HV20 Is Better Than The Sony HC7

So you are saying that that HV20 is better than the HC7 except for the LANC port?

No did not say that at all. What makes you write that?

Also... how much better are the still photos on the HC7 than the HV20?

Who has both yet? This is a video camcorder not a still camera. The stills are passable and you can shoot stills same time as shooting video. But it's no substitute for a good SLR Digital Still Camera.

Please someone... give me plus points and negative points of both cameras?

Read the thread.

1. Sony can shoot for 3 seconds @ 120fps yielding a 12 second slow motion playback. Canon cannot.
2. Sony can go underwater and be operated from outside an inexpensive $199 underwater housing. Canon cannot.
3. Sony can be driven by all sorts of tripod remote lens controllers. Canon cannot.

I like the Sony. If you are so impatient with us, go read all the Canon HV20 info out there. This is the HC7 ONLY thread not a HC7 vs. HV20 thread. Get it?

 

[Crazysah]

I am sorry. Din't mean to get you angry.

I am just trying to make my decision on which camera to get.

Could just tell me... which one would be better for first time use? (beginner)

Thanks a million mate.
Crazysah

 

[Multimedia]

I lIke Sony. Slo-Mo Power With LANC

I am just trying to make my decision on which camera to get. Could just tell me... which one would be better for first time use? (beginner)

I'm a Sony kind of guy. Buy the Sony. It'll last you for years and you won't find out later you wish you had a LANC port. Plus the slow-mo capability is dope. You can put it in all automatic mode anytime you don't feel like doing anything manual. And yet you can learn to use all the manual power features you want as you become more and more familiar with how to use them.

 

[Crazysah]

What is the slow-mo capability?

Also... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-HC7-...ef=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_txt/104-1109826-8904702

If I buy that... Would I need anything else? Would I need a extra battery or what?
Does the LANC come included?

Thanks
Crazysah

 

[Multimedia]

Yes That's An Excellent Deal. LANC Included.

What is the slow-mo capability?

Also... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-HC7-...ef=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_txt/104-1109826-8904702

If I buy that... Would I need anything else? Would I need a extra battery or what?
Does the LANC come included?

I explained the slo-mo above. Do you even read what I write?

LANC is a HOLE in the camera you plug LANC cables into. Of course it comes with it. That deal you reference looks like the best I've seen out there. You'll need to pick up a 6 pin to 4 pin FireWire cable at radio shack or from Amazon.com. Otherwise that kit comes with everything you'll need to begin with strong.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I explained the slo-mo above. Do you even read what I write?

LANC is a HOLE in the camera you plug LANC cables into. Of course it comes with it. That deal you reference looks like the best I've seen out there. You'll need to pick up a 6 pin to 4 pin FireWire cable at radio shack or from Amazon.com. Otherwise that kit comes with everything you'll need to begin with strong.

Exquisite bedside manner as always, MM.


Lethal

 

[Multimedia]

Native Stills 2848 x 1602

The "Feature Stamps" is cropped to 1363x2385 net 136KB from a 1.8GB original.

The other two are uncropped native 2848x1602. The woman and man is net 160KB and two men is net 148KB both from 1.8GB originals. All three were reduced by simply opening with Photoshop and saving for web which kicks you into ImageReady where I chose LOW JPEG to make them small enough file sizes to post here. So you get to look at what maximumly compressed copies of HC7 stills look like.

I see red where there is none. Turned down the Camera Color intensity one notch for tomorrow's next tests. Manual shutter can be lowered to 1/4 second and set as high as 1/500th of a second in Still Mode and from 1/4 to 1/10,000th of a second in Video Mode so it's full blown shutter control just like the TRV-900/950 etc.

Reminder: You have to click on the images to open a separate browser page with the full dimensions OR control + Click (right click) on each one to download them in a flash to your own computer.

 

[knl]

I have a simple question;

Buy the HC7 now or wait till May and buy either the HV20 or HC7?

EDIT: Another question.. Does the HC7 do 1080p or only 1080i?

Also... if I buy the normal MiniDV cassettes... then will it still record HD? Also.. if I buy the HD cassettess then it will do full HD recording?
Which of the 2 cassettes will give better quality? Is there any point of buying the High-Def cassettes?

has the tape question been answered? I can't find it and would love to know the answer.

 

[Crazysah]

So... The battery supplied with the camera is enough to last me 5 hours? I won't be needing a additional battery?

Also.. yeah... I would still like to know the answer to the tape question.

 

[Multimedia]

Maxell HDV Tape Is A Superior Formula 4 Min Drop-Outs, Longevity On The Tape @ $4.50

The battery supplied with the camera is enough to last me 5 hours? I won't be needing a additional battery?

Now Look. It's a question like this that really hurts my feelings. If you simply scroll through the 11 pages of this thread, there is a HUGE photo of the big 3 to 6 hour battery in there on post 220 for example where the link to the site with the best price is given. Would that not tell you to read that post about batteries? The battery that comes with the HC7 will last about an hour or a little more (page 16 Operating Guide). Have you downloaded the 115 page HC7 Operating Guide I gave you the link to in post #1? Have you tried to read the Guide? There is a full page 16 in the manual describing all the battery sizes and how long they will last under different conditions in there. You wonder why I'm short with your questions lately? It's because your questions' answers are already posted and/or links to the answers are already posted. Download & Study the manual please.

I have really worked really hard to make this thread a super user friendly resource about everything to do with the HC7 and Mac and you ask questions that tell me you haven't even scrolled through any of the pages and read anything in here at all. Do you have any idea how long it takes to make a well crafted post like this one? Several hours including all the changes I make to almost all of my posts after they are mounted. That's why I'm havin' a hard time with some of your already answered above redundant questions Crazy. Are you Crazy? [/RANT]

If I buy the normal MiniDV cassettes... then will it still record HD? Also.. if I buy the HD cassettess then it will do full HD recording? Which of the 2 cassettes will give better quality? Is there any point of buying the High-Def cassettes?

Good question not previously covered. Thanks. Thanks for the reminder Crazysah & knl. I did not see your added edit of this question until you both posted those reminders.

Either cassette will work the same way. BUT, The Professional HDV miniDV cassettes are made of a much higher quality Metal Evaporated formula instead of the cheap consumer DV Metal Particle formula that guarantees maximum quality recordings - i.e. almost never any dropouts with maximum signal to ratio - and much lower head wear.

I WAS planning on buying the more expensive Sony HDV miniDV cassettes for those reasons. I want to make sure I'm recording on the best tape I can buy. I know if I'm recordding on the best professional Metal Evaporated formula and not cheesy Metal Partical tape, then the recording barrel (it's a fast spinning head that the tape passes over) will last longer and the recordings will last longer on the tape as well. The HD tape is much smoother with a better lubricant on it so it will definitely help the heads last longer. Maxell DVM63PRO @ $4.50/reel is the way to go. Details below.

Also, you can get the Sony HDV DVM-85HD tape in 85 minute rolls @ $13.95 (pictured below) in addition to the 63 minute rolls. Maxell is not promising longer reels in future at this time. I shoot presentations and sessions at trade shows that might take longer than 60 minutes so this is great for certian long recording sessions. Another might be a long time underwater. Weddings would be another where you want to get the first 85 minutes without missing a moment. But they cost about $14 each so there's a cost benefit trade off for that length. Amazon is now selling the 63 minutes reels in two packs for just over $9 which appeared to be the lowest price to date when I started this article yesterday (still revising Friday afternoon). But as a result of writing this article for ya'll I found a source where a better alternative brand and model cost less - Way Less. How about Professional Maxell HDV 63's for $4.50 a roll in 50 reel cases or $4.95 in smaller quantities? Details below.

If you want to go all the way, there's also the Sony PHDVM63DM 63 minute Digital Master Pro HD Mini DV $15.48 Professional grade HDV tape stock (pictured below) you can buy from pro video dealers. That's the world's best HDV tape you can buy today for about a 200% premium. Full description of what it is is at that link's page. I figure the consumer branded reels' formula is almost as good. My GUESS.

There's one dealer on Amazon, "Electron Jon's", selling the consumer HDV tape for $13.45 a pair in those 2 paks you see below. BUT he's charging $7.99 shipping if you only buy one. I always buy tape in 50 reel boxes - ten 5 paks to a box/case. So when I bumped the quantity to 25 two paks from him, although the computer bumbpd the shipping to an insane $53.24 or $1.06 a reel for a total $389.49 for 50 reels, it still nets to $7.79 a reel. So I think that's the best we can do right now for the better HCD miniDV cassettes. Here's the breakdown on different quantity purchases from this Amazon Dealer called "Electron Jon's" inlcuding his rediculous shipping charge which is more likely what he has to pay Amazon to be listed there:

10 two paks $159.39 = $7.97/reel
20 two paks $312.79 = $7.82/reel
25 two paks $389.49 = $7.79/reel
30 two paks $466.19 = $7.77/reel
40 two paks $619.59 = $7.75/reel
50 two paks $772.99 = $7.73/reel
100 two paks $1,539.99 = $7.70/reel

ForgetAboutIt

Does anyone know of a better price on tape? Ok I found $4.50/reel for even better NEW tape from Maxell at TapeResources in Virginia Beach VA 800.827.3462:

Tape Resources is selling the brand NEW Maxell HDV Formula DVM63PRO Professional MiniDV Tape 303140 reels for $4.95 x 5 or 50 @ $4.50/reel cases. Whew. That was close. Almost made a fatal error. OK so forget the above and buy this Maxell tape in 5 paks for $24.75 or 50 pak cases for $225 from tape resoruces. One other thing? Make sure to stay with the same tape foever. Once you choose a brand and model number, always use the same brand and model. Why? Because the heads will not like a change in tape formula rolling over them. Can cause lots of problems.

I'm placing my first case order right now. It's a new model only two months on the market. Have to buy 55 to get free shipping but all are @ $4.50 for total of $247.50 a case plus one 5 pak. I think that $4.50 is definitely worth it for peace of mind you are using really good tape in your really good camera. I've called Maxell and will be getting a not more details from them tomorrow on this product which I will post when I get them.

This tape consistently records more than 65 minutes on each roll. Longest DV tape I've ever used. Great results.

Glad you asked. This answered my tape questions as well as yours.

So I posted all those Sony tape pics and now I'm saying "forgetaboutit" and buy the new Maxell DVM63PRO from Tape Resources for $4.95 in 5 pack boxes or $4.50 in 50-at-a-time bulk purchases (or 55 to get free shipping) depending on how much shooting you do. I've added the main part of Maxell's White Paper explaining their tape's technology including a graphic of how the tape is constructed and a chart showing how their tape will give you much less head wear than if you use consumer video tape.

 

[netdog]

I'm getting the idea that Multi likes this camera of his.

 

[danieljoelle]

MM,
ignore the frustrating questions (MAKE them read the entire thread by not responding), and start posting your impressions/footage of the HDR-HC7. (you gotta pay yer dues folks: I've waded through 160+ page threads on video forums to find the info I needed, AND searched posts for additional info.)
I like mine, but I want to know what you think.
Also, there's a worrisome preliminary finding on "another" forum that the Canon HV20 might have some problems with it's autofocus.
I know it's not right, but I want SOMETHING to be wrong with the HV20 so I don't have buyer's remorse (I'm petty, I know...)

 

[Multimedia]

Link To AppleTV Compatible Maximum Quality MPEG4 Encode Of HC7 Footage

MM,
ignore the frustrating questions (MAKE them read the entire thread by not responding), and start posting your impressions/footage of the HDR-HC7. (you gotta pay yer dues folks: I've waded through 160+ page threads on video forums to find the info I needed, AND searched posts for additional info.)
I like mine, but I want to know what you think.
Also, there's a worrisome preliminary finding on "another" forum that the Canon HV20 might have some problems with it's autofocus.
I know it's not right, but I want SOMETHING to be wrong with the HV20 so I don't have buyer's remorse (I'm petty, I know...)

OK I'm ready with a 24 second 300MB Apple Intermediate Codec 1440x1080 movie and no place to host it. iPod compcatible MPEG4 @ 2444kbps is 6.7MB. I also have an AppleTV compatible H.264 4595kbps version 1280x720 24fps that weighs in at 13MB posted at my Blip.tv site.
NOTE: You have to "Select a format" from the popup menu to "Source — MPEG4 Video (.mp4)" to be able to then get the QuickTime MP4 file to download to your HD and then save as QuickTime Movie with your QuickTime Pro. This post doesn't appear to let you download it without QT Pro. Sorry. Default is apparently a rendered-upon-receipt flash movie.

Anybody here have their AppleTV yet? Please download it, put it in your iTunes and let us know how well it looks on your big screen HDTV with a post here. Thanks.

MediaFire.com is down. Any other free large file hosting sites anybody know of? I'll try to get it on FileFactory.com tonight and post the link back in this post. Also Xdrive.com. Check out CopyLog for where to host your examples for free up there. Google "free large file hosting" for others. Also Bigupload.com.

 

[Crazysah]

OMG Multimedia! Thats a amazing post. Thanks a billion mate!

 

[EricTheRed71]

Exquisite bedside manner as always, MM.


Lethal

I liked this one the best:

This is the HC7 ONLY thread not a HC7 vs. HV20 thread. Get it?

Oh &....

Nobody does 1080p in this class.

Except the HV20 you mean?

I quite enjoy reading your posts Multimedia. Very...... passionate about the subject & certainly entertaining!

Btw, MM, I got banned from dvinfo for asking where a user got his HV20 from.
Harsh?

 

[EricTheRed71]

Actually.... seeing how cheap the SPK-HCC is could possibly sway me back to the HC7.

Nightmare!

Any chance of some good bright samples similar to the HV10 stuff on the canon website?

 

[alFR]

Btw, MM, I got banned from dvinfo for asking where a user got his HV20 from.
Harsh?

I particularly liked the thread that they closed where a guy asked what the UK HV20 price was likely to be, saying that they directed all "where to buy" questions to their sponsors. The problem is that the UK sponsor the mod linked to doesn't even list the HV10 or 20 in their online store. Go figure....

 

[Multimedia]

I Created A Canon HV20 Thread Wednesday. It Started Shipping Monday.

Btw, MM, I got banned from dvinfo for asking where a user got his HV20 from. Harsh?

Wow. The DVinfo.com guys appear to be trying to run a CLOSED LOOP site that discourages any external links to other sites with complementary infomation. It's quite a difficlut thing to do. I don't think it's helping their popularity do you?

I particularly liked the thread that they closed where a guy asked what the UK HV20 price was likely to be, saying that they directed all "where to buy" questions to their sponsors. The problem is that the UK sponsor the mod linked to doesn't even list the HV10 or 20 in their online store. Go figure....

Oh no. Yes I noticed they don't even investigate where links lead to what before they delete posts with links they don't know about. It's one of the most bizarre immoderation operations I've ever seen. They appear to be deleting posts helter skelter if any of them rub them the wrong way.

Yes I do strive to provide as much entertainment value as I can within an informational context.

I see. 1080P from the HV20 @ 24fps-on-60i (3:2 Pulldown) or 1080i @ 60fps. Right. With no way to properly run the zoom. Pity. Do you realize how sad that is? Only with an external lens controller can you achieve the super slow zooms that are so effective in many types of shots. Those kinds of super slow zooms cannot be achieved with the camera's zoom controller. I guess everyone who wants it thinks they will never need super slow zooms. I guess that's one way to rationalize it. Oh and NEVER UNDERWATER. Brilliant.

My plan is to lobby Canon to put the LANC port on there next year.

Would you mind replying with HV20 posts at the new Canon HV20 Camcorder thread I started Wednesday please? Thanks. I just posted this there so you don't need to. I just woke up.

 

[MovieCutter]

OK I'm ready with a 24 second 300MB Apple Intermediate Codec 1440x1080 movie and no place to host it. iPod compcatible MPEG4 @ 2444kbps is 6.7MB. I also have an AppleTV compatible H.264 4595kbps version 1280x720 24fps that weighs in at 13MB posted at my Blip.tv site.
NOTE: You have to "Select a format" from the popup menu to "Source — MPEG4 Video (.mp4)" to be able to then get the QuickTime MP4 file to download to your HD and then save as QuickTime Movie with your QuickTime Pro. This post doesn't appear to let you download it without QT Pro. Sorry. Default is apparently a rendered-upon-receipt flash movie.

Anybody here have their AppleTV yet? Please download it, put it in your iTunes and let us know how well it looks on your big screen HDTV with a post here. Thanks.

MediaFire.com is down. Any other free large file hosting sites anybody know of? I'll try to get it on FileFactory.com tonight and post the link back in this post. Also Xdrive.com. Check out CopyLog for where to host your examples for free up there. Google "free large file hosting" for others. Also Bigupload.com.

Plays great on my AppleTV connected to 50" Samsung DLP! A little choppy and liney, but that seems to be the case when I play it on the computer as well...gotta love that interlaced HDV footage.

Check this thread out for more AppleTV experience...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/290045/

 

[Multimedia]

30% HC7, 20% Other HDV, 27% DV and 23% Curious, 275 Posts, 15,486 Views, In 40 Days

So here at the bottom of page 11 Post 275 we find ourselves with 90 voters representing:

30% on the HC7 team
20% on the other HDV teams or
27% on the DV not ready for HDV team
and 23% just curious

275 Posts
15,486 Views
in 40 days

That is amazing folks. Great job everyone. We're on to somethin'.

Next I'm posting an article on Sony's exclusive Smooth Slow Record capability no other cameras on the market have except the HC7 and the V1U or HD cameras that cost $500,000 like the ones used to produce the new HD nature series planet earth on the HD Discovery Channel premiering Sunday evening at 8pm ET/PT.

See you at the top of page 12 post 276 later this evening. Stay tuned to your Forum Spy for up to the minute participation. Bye for now. Thanks for reading, writing and watching.