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diddl14

macrumors 65816
Aug 10, 2009
1,102
1,730
So like.... Android.... MacOS, Windows.... last I checked, they all work like this.
I mean it's kind of like expected that if you want people using your platform and OS you provide tools, APIs, etc. App store greed isn't the only way to make money - and this is laughable. Apple, the company that has screwed developers for years with excessive fees under the guise of their control freak nature, er, review process, being why.
None of these platforms have contributed as easy and massively in making a substantial income for Indy app developers as iOS. I have a small niche app on the AppStore since 2011. I would have never made the amount of money I did without the Apple eco-system. The 30% (meanwhile 15%) commission for Apple is totally justified and worth it. The big companies are not doing this for consumers nor for the bulk of app developers. They just want to keep more of the cake for themselves. Just a bunch of greedy weiners.
 
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Konrad9

macrumors 6502a
Feb 23, 2012
575
64
Not hardly. Apple lowered the costs to developers orders of magnitude to even get the platform off the ground.

A developer license for NeXTSTEP was $799, a user license was $299 and Enterprise Objects Framework license was $4999, $24999 and $49999 enterprise unlimited. OS X had a larger entry user base so the early OS fee eventually went to $0.

Does Microsoft charge a $99 fee annually for Office 360 Enterprise? How about Visual Studio, etc?

You’re delusional belief your $99 fee covers you is ludicrous.
It's not our belief, it's what Apple tells us.

If it doesn't cover all of those things, then make it more expensive.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,431
2,266
Scandinavia
There's no way Apple are rolling these changes outwithout knowing it meets DMA requirements.
It would be too hard to release it and then undo it later - you cant force people to install another iOS upgrade.
Just takes one person to hold onto it ...
Apple's lawyers will have checked every word and that the changes meet those words.

EU have had a while now to read what Apple is proposing and they havent come out and said no to it.

Spotify and Epic are knwon whingers leveraging their market share and profile to pretend to be interested in consumers. They arent.
Eu have said they won’t comment until after the deadline. So no apple isn’t in the clear.

EU Supreme Court have a tendency to interpret laws through comparative analysis and Theological analysis of the text.

Contextual Interpretation​

Contextual interpretation asks us to look beyond the words of a text and to examine the context in which the law exists. This interpretation has two possible perspectives:

A. Systemic interpretation​

The ECJ can look inward and consider the EU law provision in question as being a cog in the system, and ask which interpretation makes the most sense based on how this law should function as part of the overarching system. This method of interpretation assumes that the legislator is rational and emphasises the effect a law will have when it is put into practise. The aim of this is to bring more consistency to EU law and to avoid an interpretation which clashes with the broader system.

B. Travaux Préparatoires (preparatory work)​

Alternatively, the ECJ can consider what the legislators (the Commission, the Parliament, and the Council) intended by looking at what they said during negotiation. This can be accessed from preparatory documents produced during the various stages of the legislative and budgetary process. It is important to note that the interpretation of EU law can only be based on documents which are accessible to the public.

Teleological interpretation​

Teleological interpretation has been very important for EU law. It looks at the objective of the law, considering the purpose, values, legal social and economic goals it aims to achieve. It is regarded as the method of interpretation relied on most heavily by the ECJ, who relied on it to establish that EU law had to be in line with human rights standards

The ECJ harmonizes the generality of EU primary law with the technicality of EU secondary law by considering the aims and objectives of EU treaties. Due to its focus on the effect and purpose of a law, teleological interpretation and systemic interpretation are often interlinked.

The beauty of this method is that it allows the judge to take technological and social advancements into account, so older laws are interpreted in law with changing social norms. For example, the meaning of marriage and family can be expanded to include LGBTQIA+ families, whereas it originally only referred to a union between a man and a woman.

The right to privacy of correspondence originally only applied to letters, however in line with advancements in technology, this was then interpreted to include phone and later email. Similarly, as most of our personal information is shared digitally, the right to privacy was expanded to what we now call data protection.

Textualism (Literal Interpretation)​

Also known as literal interpretation, textualism holds that the meaning of a text is contained within its words. If it is clear from reading a sentence what a reasonable person would understand is being communicated to them, then we should accept this “plain meaning” without needing to rely on more convoluted methods of interpretation.
 

Konrad9

macrumors 6502a
Feb 23, 2012
575
64
Plus, Apple is continually updating and maintaining the platform. That costs money to do. Everyone stating "what is the developer fee for?" is nuts to think $99 a year is going to support everything Apple does.

Plan and simple they want it for free. They want free land, and rights to setup shop however they want. They do not care about the customer at all. They just want people to sell to, and to make as much money selling to them as possible.
Then why are we paying the $99/year?
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,281
2,606
That would apply to Apple as well. That must mean the Core Technology Fee is great.
Difference: They’re in a duopoly with Android and have (had commercially) a monopoly for distribution of iOS apps.

Apple has much lower incentive to innovate - cause they have less competition due to network effects and customer lock-in.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,980
Difference: They’re in a duopoly with Android and have (had commercially) a monopoly for distribution of iOS apps.
Apple's "monopoly" per the App Store never resulted in higher prices. The mobile era = lower prices for apps than either desktops or consoles. The EU chose the least expensive ecosystem of apps to focus on rather than the most expensive.
 
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jgdeschamps

macrumors 6502
Dec 18, 2012
313
364
The analogy is misleading, since you’re not one of two fire protection systems integrators in all of Europe and fire protection systems integration does not nearly have the network effects or barriers to market entry that mobile operating systems have.
A free market doesn't limit competition to 2 or 100. It's not misleading. That's actual equality. Let those who complain find the means and ba**s to become actual competitors. Many have stated the same: if you don't like Apple's rules for that particular revenue stream (that they invested and created not out of charity, but for profitability,) go with the competition, or create your own ecosystem/platform or whatever you wanna call it. They were happy at the beginning to ride along. I'm extremely sure private deals could have been achieved if they approached Apple with logical and valid business petitions. But no, let's go the lobbying and public opinion route to press them. Bad decisions from these supposed business allies all along.

What individuals seem to forget is that Apple had the vision to make this business construct... and everybody else told them they were wrong and that it wasn't gonna work (especially Microsoft...) guess what? IT DID. Now it's too late for the rest and they want a handicap. Tough sh**, learn your lessons and begin taking business risks.
 
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gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,980
Apple has much lower incentive to innovate - cause they have less competition due to network effects and customer lock-in.
Who's innovating more in the mobile market? iOS, the iPhone and the App Store were all innovations relative to what the cell phone industry consisted of in 2007/2008. The A series SoC was an innovation. The idea that Apple is just sitting back and stagnating because they don't have competition doesn't match what exists in the market.
 

MNGR

Contributor
Sep 17, 2019
304
418
They all crying cause they don’t wanna pay the fee apple wants. Before Spotify crys over this, pay the artist the right amount of money they deserved and fix your damn policy. I hope apple continous the war, I mean, where in the world do you get something for free, either they want your money, or your data.

Would be interesting how many iphone users really want sideloading. In the end its less than the half or just one digit. congrats
I don’t
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,313
31,421
And the market cap has slowed because Apple isn't making as much money from its developers and users (combined).

Your proposal would make Apple make less money, not helping with its market value.
Apple needs to find other ways of increasing revenue and profits. Rent seeking isn’t the way.
 
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jgdeschamps

macrumors 6502
Dec 18, 2012
313
364
Apple should compete by making better products all around and make money. Not by locking down its ecosystem. That's how it should make profits.
A locked ecosystem would be what Nintendo and Sony do for developing console games. You have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to be a certified developer at the beginning of your developer account.

Apple gives developer tools for free, when you are ready to distribute you pay a very attractive developer fee (99USDs,) you agree to their distribution and commercial rules for their platform, and they make your app reach people worldwide. You don't have to worry about anything else. There are many single individual developer cases where they have reached profitability with their app that couldn't have been achievable with older regular distribution models. There are so many app submissions that their own review system lets slip fraudulent apps from time to time. How is that locked down?

And clearly Apple has the better product since these huge companies cannot compete with them. They are billion+ dollar companies, and for some reason, they don't want to do their own thing... they want to depend on Apple's platform, and still, make Apple give them what they want for free just because. WTF?
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,313
31,421
For many users, a locked down ecosystem is the better product for them. That’s how Apple competes. By offering a product that is sufficiently differentiated from android.
I’m curious how many people you think own an iPhone specifically because it’s locked down. My guess is a lot of users don’t know anything different but that wasn’t specifically the reason they bought an iPhone.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,313
31,421
This isn’t any different to game consoles work though. To publish a console game you need to buy a license from Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft regardless of where the game is sold.
So you think the iPhone is a game console and not a general purpose computer? How about a compromise where Apple only rent seeks on games. That’s where they make most of their IAP money anyway.
 

treacher

macrumors regular
Feb 16, 2024
186
317
I tried submitting a banking app for the Switch and they rejected it! What is this crap? They only allow games or something?
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,281
2,606
Who's innovating more in the mobile market?
App developers more than OS developers on their OS, in my view. Clearly.
iOS, the iPhone and the App Store were all innovations relative to what the cell phone industry consisted of in 2007/2008
Totally agree - but we’re not living in 2007 anymore.
Mobile operating systems like iOS and Android are mature platforms today.
Innovation mainly happens on apps/services - though they’re sometimes absorbed as bundled into OS.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,980
Apple needs to find other ways of increasing revenue and profits. Rent seeking isn’t the way.
"Rent seeking" is primarily about companies lobbying the government for subsidies or protective tariffs. Who was lobbying the EU? Not Apple.
 
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AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,281
2,606
Many have stated the same: if you don't like Apple's rules for that particular revenue stream (that they invested and created not out of charity, but for profitability,) go with the competition, or create your own ecosystem/platform or whatever you wanna call it.
Not feasible to create competition. You say it yourself:
Now it's too late for the rest
Exactly. It’s too late for the rest.

Consumers and developers have converged on a duopoly of Apple iOS and Google Android - and since basically everyone owns and uses a smartphone today, the market has been divided for good. You can’t create a viable competing OS without third-party developer support.

That’s why these systems now get regulated.

And let’s not pretend that Apple wasn’t handsomely compensated for their effort, vision and risk taken.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,313
31,421
In other words, app developers are free to choose the platforms that they develop on. That's the point that the EU never really addressed when it came to the App Store. Forcing side loading on iOS isn't going to do anything for "competition".
If someone delivers a cross platform product why should Apple or Google or whomever get a cut of that product’s revenues? Can Apple really argue Spotify’s subscribers are because of them when you can get Spotify on Android, Windows and the browser? If Apple deserves a cut then do ISP and cellular providers deserve one too? Without internet access Spotify wouldn’t work.
 
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gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,980
App developers more than OS developers on their OS, in my view. Clearly.

Totally agree - but we’re not living in 2007 anymore.
Mobile operating systems like iOS and Android are mature platforms today.
Innovation mainly happens on apps/services - though they’re sometimes absorbed as bundled into OS.
How did Spotify or Tinder or Microsoft or Epic "innovate" more than Apple on iOS? And the idea that the iPhone/iOS in 2024 have hardly changed versus 2007 doesn't make any sense. There have been gigantic improvements in both.
 
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gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,980
If someone delivers a cross platform product why should Apple or Google or whomever get a cut of that product’s revenues? Can Apple really argue Spotify’s subscribers are because of them when you can get Spotify on Android, Windows and the browser? If Apple deserves a cut then do ISP and cellular providers deserve one too? Without internet access Spotify wouldn’t work.
Spotify's subscribers pay through the internet just like with Netflix and Amazon Kindle. Apple doesn't get a cut.
 
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