Spotify on Apple's Response to App Store Dispute: 'Every Monopolist Will Suggest They Have Done Nothing Wrong'

[Bytor65]

What I believe you fail to understand this that Apple could allow side loading of apps and both you and I could be happy. That would not effect you one bit.

It will eventually.

Because it would drastically increase piracy, which will negatively affect developers, which in the long run will trickle down to consumers.

Then there would be lucrative defections from the app store, by developers looking to deny Apple a cut.

Both of the above would be less income and likely less spending on maintaining/improving the App store.

Basically the closed nature of the platform is directly responsible for much of the differences between the Android/Apple ecosystems.

If you prefer the way Android ecosystem works, you should vote with your dollars and buy Android devices, not try to get Apple to follow that path.

 

[ipponrg]

Because it would drastically increase piracy, which will negatively affect developers, which in the long run will trickle down to consumers.

Not saying this is ethically correct, but piracy was one of the core reasons the music industry is as big as it is today.

 

[Bytor65]

Not saying this is ethically correct, but piracy was one of the core reasons the music industry is as big as it is today.

Does Apples appstore need piracy to get big? Regardless if Piracy is your thing, there is Android...

 

[Abazigal]

What I believe you fail to understand this that Apple could allow side loading of apps and both you and I could be happy. That would not effect you one bit.

Has the fortnite issue on Android taught you nothing?

 

[ipponrg]

Does Apples appstore need piracy to get big? Regardless if Piracy is your thing, there is Android...

It needed Cydia to get to where it is today.

Piracy is not my thing but just making it aware that certain precursors are what heavily influenced where Apple is today, and part of it was piracy.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Piracy is not my thing but just making it aware that certain precursors are what heavily influenced where Apple is today, and part of it was piracy.

That's a fascinating theory. But it's not really a valid argument for Apple to open up their store, give Spotify a better rate, or generally upset the Apple cart. There's also the whole bit about the ends not justifying the means.

 

[Bytor65]

It needed Cydia to get to where it is today.

Piracy is not my thing but just making it aware that certain precursors are what heavily influenced where Apple is today, and part of it was piracy.

Nope. Jailbroken iPhones (required for Cydia) were a tiny minority, they are not responsible for the Appstore success.

 

[cknibbs]

You don't seem to realize that you are describing two very different models.

The App Store mostly resembles selling on commission basis: the developer/publisher of an app gets paid only after a customer bought it and in return Apple keeps a cut for the service of hosting and selling it.

In a classic retail model - as you described it abridged - Apple would have to buy quantities of licenses for all the apps offered in the App Store, estimated on how many copies of each app they expect to be downloaded. And Apple would have to pay the developers up front, bearing the risk of not being able to sell all those licenses opposed to having to pay higher single unit prices if buying in lower quantities.
The developers wouldn't rely entirely on actual downloads of their apps, they already made their yields by selling licenses to Apple (of course they benefit from more downloads, because Apple would have to buy more licenses). Apple in turn would charge their own profit margin to customers.

That doesn't sound anything like the App Store. This is why your analogy about LG wanting a cut from BestBuy's sales to customers is flawed. LG isn't involved in transactions at the end of the distribution chain, they are making money at the start of it by selling to wholesalers. Wether some BestBuy store in the middle of nowhere sells 100 of their TV sets or none - it doesn't directly affect LG's profits.

Fair enough - the commission model is a better representation of the App Store... but I think the point still stands that Apple deserves to take their Commission cut then!

 

[macfacts]

Does Apples appstore need piracy to get big? Regardless if Piracy is your thing, there is Android...

Except piracy exists on iOS too.

 

[Bytor65]

Except piracy exists on iOS too.

Sure, but it is typically more difficult and Apple works harder to close loopholes that enable it. Where it is bascially a free-for-all on Android.

 

[Abazigal]

Except piracy exists on iOS too.

It’s certainly a lot less than on android, and a key factor as to why apps are more profitable on iOS, which in turn explains why developers tend to release apps on iOS first.

That's a fascinating theory. But it's not really a valid argument for Apple to open up their store, give Spotify a better rate, or generally upset the Apple cart. There's also the whole bit about the ends not justifying the means.

Point is - we have to be careful that whatever solution is being suggested doesn’t end up resulting in a worse user experience for Apple users. Because Spotify is clearly looking out for themselves in this scenario, and not their users.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Point is - we have to be careful that whatever solution is being suggested doesn’t end up resulting in a worse user experience for Apple users. Because Spotify is clearly looking out for themselves in this scenario, and not their users.

I, as a consumer of Apple products, don't want to see anything change. I like the store the way it is and abhor the idea of multiple app stores. That's one of my main reasons for sticking with Apple, because they have an App Store that they rule with an iron fist. That's actually a benefit in my eyes. I can't even understand how it's desirable to have multiple app stores, from both a consumer perspective and a developer perspective as well. If you want multiple app stores, go to an ecosystem that has multiple app stores. Stop going to Taco Bell and complaining you can't get a cheeseburger.

 

[ipponrg]

Nope. Jailbroken iPhones (required for Cydia) were a tiny minority, they are not responsible for the Appstore success.

Interesting so you think if Cydia hadn’t introduced springboard nor exposed what iOS was capable of doing or what Apple was limiting then the App Store would be what it is today? Guy, you must have never used Cydia to a reasonable degree

Apple literally took most of Cydia’s apps and good ideas and rolled it into iOS shortly after

That's a fascinating theory. But it's not really a valid argument for Apple to open up their store, give Spotify a better rate, or generally upset the Apple cart. There's also the whole bit about the ends not justifying the means.

Yeah that’s not my point here. You got people here with selective memory and experience who didn’t see how iOS and the App Store evolved from its inception.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Yeah that’s not my point here. You got people here with selective memory and experience who didn’t see how iOS and the App Store evolved from its inception.

Or they disagree. I've been around since the App Store came into being and I happen to not agree. I don't think the jail breaking community had any appreciable influence on how the App Store evolved or iOS itself. Just because Apple implemented some of the things found in the jailbreaking community, does not prove that's where their idea originated. Other people can think of things too. It could have been a suggestion from customers from their feedback page. There's really no way to say for sure without inside knowledge. Since it's not something that can be proved one way or the other, I'll just say "nice theory" and leave it at that. Any more would be pointless as there's no way to prove anything definitively.

 

[ipponrg]

Just because Apple implemented some of the things found in the jailbreaking community, does not prove that's where their idea originated.

There were many things that were very close copies of the software delivered by the jailbreaking community. I recall the native apps in iOS finally being close enough to Cydia where I was tired of jailbreaking every patch.

However I stumbled onto this, and it parallels my experience if you're interested in opening your eyes. It explains the timeline of how the app store evolved alongside Cydia: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xa4ka/iphone-jailbreak-life-death-legacy

I guess the same could be said how Napster put the star on the map with music sharing, so that new artists can be discovered/promoted. But I suppose that never happened since iTunes existed after. The music industry must have grown, not because of piracy, but only because of iTunes. You're right though. I'm one of many that failed at ignoring the big red elephants in the room.

 

[MEJHarrison]

However I stumbled onto this, and it parallels my experience if you're interested in opening your eyes. It explains the timeline of how the app store evolved alongside Cydia: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xa4ka/iphone-jailbreak-life-death-legacy

That was an interesting article. I had no idea how the whole jailbreaking thing got started or that it pre-dated the App Store. But it's a one-sided article. All the credit to the jailbreaking community, came from the jailbreaking community itself. They make a good case, but they themselves don't even claim it to be a fact and are guessing to some degree. Directly from the article itself:

As such, the hacker iPhone Dev Team should get a share of at least some of the credit in Jobs's decision to let the real iPhone Dev Team open up the device to developers in 2008.

"I don't want to have too much hubris in our role. We didn't know how much Apple had planned before us," Wang says, or how much it mattered that they relentlessly hacked the iPhone until it opened up. "I want to say it does."​

As for the claim that Apple stole the best ideas from the jailbreaking community, the article makes that claim, but it does nothing to backup that claim. It just tosses it out there and moves on. So it could be true. Or the ideas might have come from a different source. Or multiple sources. There are so many other explanations. My personal opinion is they don't need to go stealing ideas when they have a feedback page where anyone in the world can make suggestions. If they want to know what people want, they already have that information at their disposal without doing anything unethical.

Like I said, there is no proof one way or the other. Maybe things happened one way, maybe they didn't. Only Apple knows. At this point, it's all opinion. It's a good story, but without facts, that's all it is.

 

[Tech198]

Does Apples appstore need piracy to get big? Regardless if Piracy is your thing, there is Android...

Hope not... Apple doesn't need anyone's help to get big. Well.. content creators..... today...

 

[Bytor65]

Interesting so you think if Cydia hadn’t introduced springboard nor exposed what iOS was capable of doing or what Apple was limiting then the App Store would be what it is today? Guy, you must have never used Cydia to a reasonable degree

Only a fringe ever did use Cydia, it's peak claim of usage was around 10%, and 250K annual revenue.

The reality is that Developers screamed loudly to be let in from day 1, and that in October 2007 (only a few months after the first iPhone release) Apple announced iPhone SDK for developers. So Apple clearly had their intentions made public by then and that predates Cydia.

Cydia or no Cydia, developers were going to be let in a much larger scale than the fringe hackers, and a much larger community would experience their output. Planned and announced before Cydia.

The fact that some features show up first in Cydia, means squat. It's about as meaningful as the guy that posts "First" under a news story. Apple under Jobs was famous for limiting features, Jobs is famous for stating that his job was saying "No" to a 1000 good things:
https://fs.blog/2011/09/steve-jobs-the-focus-to-say-no/

Especially under Jobs, Apple was all about the big thing, followed by the methodical iterations, while their competitor threw every and kitchen sink into their products Apple always seem to have less, but better executed features

Some people just like to glorify piracy and hacking, but it's beneficial impact is almost always exaggerated, as it is here.

 

[ipponrg]

That was an interesting article. I had no idea how the whole jailbreaking thing got started or that it pre-dated the App Store. But it's a one-sided article. All the credit to the jailbreaking community, came from the jailbreaking community itself. They make a good case, but they themselves don't even claim it to be a fact and are guessing to some degree. Directly from the article itself:

As such, the hacker iPhone Dev Team should get a share of at least some of the credit in Jobs's decision to let the real iPhone Dev Team open up the device to developers in 2008.

"I don't want to have too much hubris in our role. We didn't know how much Apple had planned before us," Wang says, or how much it mattered that they relentlessly hacked the iPhone until it opened up. "I want to say it does."​

As for the claim that Apple stole the best ideas from the jailbreaking community, the article makes that claim, but it does nothing to backup that claim. It just tosses it out there and moves on. So it could be true. Or the ideas might have come from a different source. Or multiple sources. There are so many other explanations. My personal opinion is they don't need to go stealing ideas when they have a feedback page where anyone in the world can make suggestions. If they want to know what people want, they already have that information at their disposal without doing anything unethical.

Like I said, there is no proof one way or the other. Maybe things happened one way, maybe they didn't. Only Apple knows. At this point, it's all opinion. It's a good story, but without facts, that's all it is.

As much it is an opinion, let actions speak louder than words. The features added by Apple were very close to what was delivered by Cydia. Of course if you haven’t used these apps from Cydia, then yeah your skepticism is warranted by your limited experience.
[doublepost=1553356683][/doublepost]

Some people just like to glorify piracy and hacking, but it's beneficial impact is almost always exaggerated, as it is here.

The Cydia store may have had a limited amount of users, but the features and ideas that it brought were of immense value to the iOS ecosystem. Just like MEHarrison and probably Abizagal, the lack of experience with it is what makes your head turn one way.

Glorification is subjective, but I feel people generally should try to understand the landscape from both the ethical and unethical povs. Hackers and piracy are one of the heavily undervalued influencers of tech today.

 

[Bytor65]

The Cydia store may have had a limited amount of users, but the features and ideas that it brought were of immense value to the iOS ecosystem. Just like MEHarrison and probably Abizagal, the lack of experience with it is what makes your head turn one way.

This is not a case of saying Cydia did feature X (Example: let users change wallpaper) first, thus it wouldn't happen without Cydia.

As I stated being first means nothing against a methodical company like Apple. Every feature in Cydia was probably brought up internally at Apple first.

What features are you going to argue that Apple wouldn't actually have done without Cydia?

 

[Abazigal]

The Cydia store may have had a limited amount of users, but the features and ideas that it brought were of immense value to the iOS ecosystem. Just like MEHarrison and probably Abizagal, the lack of experience with it is what makes your head turn one way.

But of course, that has to be the only explanation. When I disagree with you on something (or vice versa), it must be due to my alleged lack of knowledge and experience. Nothing else. How convenient.

 

[ipponrg]

But of course, that has to be the only explanation. When I disagree with you on something (or vice versa), it must be due to my alleged lack of knowledge and experience. Nothing else. How convenient.

You have said it yourself many times here. You are a teacher who got into the ecosystem in 2011. You have limited experience with anything beyond doing things the Apple way. It’s not even convenient. I’m just calling it out here that your opinions are usually short sighted.

 

[Abazigal]

You have said it yourself many times here. You are a teacher who got into the ecosystem in 2011. You have limited experience with anything beyond doing things the Apple way. It’s not even convenient. I’m just calling it out here that your opinions are usually short sighted.

Let's see...

— I think Apple’s products are stupid. Check.
— People are still buying Apple’s products despite what I think. Check.
— I can't be stupid so… Check.
— It must be the people who are buying Apple’s products who are be stupid! Check.

Textbook case of cognitive dissonance if I ever saw one.

Just because I might have limited experience outside the Apple ecosystem doesn't mean I am wrong. In the very least, I won't be wrong just because you say I am. What you are doing is simply dismissing anything and everything I say by simply waving a hand in my face and retorting "What do you know?".

It's like a kid correcting an adult on a mistake he made, and instead of admitting to it, the adult simply goes "What do you know? You are still so young" in an attempt to sidestep the point, instead of tackling the veracity of the statement head on.

As it stands, you haven't exactly stated any evidence to refute the statements made by @Bytor65 . It's the same MO all over again - you basically asserting that what you say is gospel, and when the other party disagrees with you, it's because he is ignorant or short-sighted or otherwise lacking in some other area.

Which makes me wonder, you won't cite examples, or you can't?

 

[ipponrg]

Let's see...

— I think Apple’s products are stupid. Check.
— People are still buying Apple’s products despite what I think. Check.
— I can't be stupid so… Check.
— It must be the people who are buying Apple’s products who are be stupid! Check.

Textbook case of cognitive dissonance if I ever saw one.

Just because I might have limited experience outside the Apple ecosystem doesn't mean I am wrong. In the very least, I won't be wrong just because you say I am. What you are doing is simply dismissing anything and everything I say by simply waving a hand in my face and retorting "What do you know?".

It's like a kid correcting an adult on a mistake he made, and instead of admitting to it, the adult simply goes "What do you know? You are still so young" in an attempt to sidestep the point, instead of tackling the veracity of the statement head on.

As it stands, you haven't exactly stated any evidence to refute the statements made by @Bytor65 . It's the same MO all over again - you basically asserting that what you say is gospel, and when the other party disagrees with you, it's because he is ignorant or short-sighted or otherwise lacking in some other area.

Which makes me wonder, you won't cite examples, or you can't?

The problem with evidence in your eyes and others is you literally want Apple to say it. If they don’t say it, then it can’t possibly be accurate. The inherent problem with this thought is you take the “innocent till first party accepts guilt approach”.

I don’t think you are wrong, but without that experience it’s difficult for ppl like me to convey to ppl like you without spending an enormous amount of time crafting a carefully worded message with tons of proof and posts to share.

On a side note, Bytor has stated he had limited experience with Cydia. I already linked an article of a timeline and that was paraphrased from several sources. So the purpose of proving my point is nonsensical as now I have to dig up historical posts on all sorts of places back to 2008 to explain my point.

 

[Abazigal]

I don’t think you are wrong, but without that experience it’s difficult for ppl like me to convey to ppl like you without spending an enormous amount of time crafting a carefully worded message with tons of proof and posts to share.

My record was 2.5 hours spent crafting a single response here at Macrumours (looking up info, wording and rewording my response to make it sound more coherent), for whatever that is worth. I know my words are worth crap in some of your eyes, but to me, since I choose to respond, that means that each and every one of you here is deemed a member worthy of my time and respect. And that means making the effort to craft a response that I am proud of before hitting that "post" button. Maybe some will roll their eyes and scroll right past it, and that's perfectly okay.

And I have come to see this as short-term pain for long-term gain. One observation I have made is that the arguments here at Macrumours tend to repeat themselves after a while (yes, even I acknowledge that I am guilty of this, for those tired of how many times I mention how I love using my iPad, Apple Pencil, AirPods and Apple Watch). So the hardest response to compose to is always that first one, but afterwards, it gets much easier when you need to reiterate or rehash a similar argument again in another thread sometime later in the future (and believe me, you will).