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Quite interesting to see than in a thread with over 1000 responses, the comments seem to be more in favour of Apple (or at least, not in favour of Spotify) than the other way around.

Quite unusual for a forum traditionally known for being overly critical and negative towards Apple.

Keep up the PR battle, Apple. Whatever the outcome of the court case may be, I don’t think Spotify will emerged unscathed.
 
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How would you handle Amazons store app given the already stated rules for physical vs digital goods?

AFAICT, Amazon and Apple likely have some kind of category agreement about which items fit the bill, and Amazon voluntarily doesn't offer the digital goods on it's store in the iOS app, to avoid paying a cut, and Apple mostly takes them at their word with some spot checks.

With millions of products for sale it's easy to see how some items could slip through the cracks of both Amazons categorization, and Apple spot checks.

Something slipping through the cracks is not evidence that Spotify is somehow being targeted to keep them down.
Isn't that reason enough that Apple should blow up the distinction? As you said yourself, the only way it works is if Apple takes Amazon at their word, does some spot checks, and otherwise accepts that some stuff will slip through. Is that really a good way to go about it? Why not just either (1) charge everyone 30% no matter what, or (2) don't charge any app store fees at all.

Also, which product are you talking about because when I look up spotify gift card:
https://www.amazon.com/Spotify/dp/B07MZS4F18/ this one doesn't say it's mail.
https://www.amazon.com/Netflix-Gift-Cards-E-mail-Delivery/dp/B078J1RSSB this Netflix gift card says "email delivery" in the title.
 
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https://www.amazon.com/Spotify/dp/B07MZS4F18/ this one doesn't say it's mail.
https://www.amazon.com/Netflix-Gift-Cards-E-mail-Delivery/dp/B078J1RSSB this Netflix gift card says "email delivery" in the title.

That Spotify one says:
"Shipment of this Gift Card, and other Amazon and branded gift card shipments, will include a package slip with your first name and last name initial so your recipient will know who sent this gift." Which certainly implies it is also a physical product.

As far as the netflix one, can someone verify that the one that blatantly says "email deliver" is actually available in the App Store app?



Isn't that reason enough that Apple should blow up the distinction? As you said yourself, the only way it works is if Apple takes Amazon at their word, does some spot checks, and otherwise accepts that some stuff will slip through. Is that really a good way to go about it? Why not just either (1) charge everyone 30% no matter what, or (2) don't charge any app store fees at all.

Ah, no, that's an absurd reaction.

Something theoretically slips through out of millions of products and you are arguing they should blow up the whole system. :rolleyes:

The distinction likely exists for sound reasons, that I already outlined. Something sneaking through the cracks in the system doesn't change the sound foundation for the different categories.

That's like arguing some people get away with crimes, so we should just do away with laws.
 
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As far as the netflix one, can someone verify that the one that blatantly says "email deliver" is actually available in the App Store app?
Pretty easy to check, click the link in your phone. I just did, and it opens in the app and is available to buy.
 
Kaspersky Lab has also made an antitrust complaint in Russia.


The change in Apple’s policy toward our app (as well as toward every other developer of parental control software), notably came on the heels of the Cupertino-based company announcing its own Screen Time feature as part of iOS 12. This feature allows users to monitor the amount of time they spend using certain apps or on certain websites, and set time restrictions. It is essentially Apple’s own app for parental control.

From our point of view, Apple appears to be using its position as platform owner and supervisor of the sole channel for delivering apps to users of the platform to dictate terms and prevent other developers from operating on equal terms with it.


https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/appl...d4d4a5bb85c5bac8c3681e0fee23e&affmt=2&affmn=1
 

Kaspersky is the perfect example as to why Apple is justified in running their App Store with an iron fist. There is no way I am trusting a third party developer to access what I do on my device and it make sense that Apple supply functionality like screen recording and screen time themselves because it’s easier to monitor themselves than a multitude of third-party apps.
 
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Kaspersky is the perfect example as to why Apple is justified in running their App Store with an iron fist. There is no way I am trusting a third party developer to access what I do on my device and it make sense that Apple supply functionality like screen recording and screen time themselves because it’s easier to monitor themselves than a multitude of third-party apps.

It's a perfect example of Apples anticompetitive behaviour.

They've been doing this for years like the time they banned f.lux and then released their own version (night shift).
 
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It's a perfect example of Apples anticompetitive behaviour.

They've been doing this for years like the time they banned f.lux and then released their own version (night shift).
Kaspersky Labs was caught loading profiles just like Facebook was. Apple took away the features that required the rule breaking configuration profile, and now they're upset. The world can't condemn facebook and praise Kaspersky Labs for breaking the same rules.
 
It's a perfect example of Apples anticompetitive behaviour.

They've been doing this for years like the time they banned f.lux and then released their own version (night shift).

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

I might still be sympathetic to Spotify’s plight because it’s a relatively benign service (music streaming, what could go wrong?)

But for a company whose products have been banned by the US government due to suspicion of close ties with the Russian government?

Same thing with flux, which would have required the app to have control of your iOS device. Again, when it comes to issues that might compromise the security of my device, I would rather have Apple be the one to implement it (because of the trust I have for them) rather than a third party whom I don’t know as well. Or even if Flux is trustworthy, you have no idea how that API could be abused by other less ethical third party developers. It’s just too much risk for not so much benefit.

The thing is - I don’t see anticompetitive practices as an inherently good or bad thing. To me, it’s a means to an end. And if that end is to keep potentially harmful software out of my device, I fail to see why it’s a bad thing.

And this is precisely why I embraced the Apple ecosystem in the first place.
 
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Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

I might still be sympathetic to Spotify’s plight because it’s a relatively benign service (music streaming, what could go wrong?)

But for a company whose products have been banned by the US government due to suspicion of close ties with the Russian government?

Same thing with flux, which would have required the app to have control of your iOS device. Again, when it comes to issues that might compromise the security of my device, I would rather have Apple be the one to implement it (because of the trust I have for them) rather than a third party whom I don’t know as well. Or even if Flux is trustworthy, you have no idea how that API could be abused by other less ethical third party developers. It’s just too much risk for not so much benefit.

The thing is - I don’t see anticompetitive practices as an inherently good or bad thing. To me, it’s a means to an end. And if that end is to keep potentially harmful software out of my device, I fail to see why it’s a bad thing.

And this is precisely why I embraced the Apple ecosystem in the first place.


It's a bad thing if you don't want multibillion dollar corporations abusing their position to stamp out competition.

I see Apple are worried about Kasperskys ties to the Russian government. They were happy enough to shift iCloud data to China though, funny how that goes ...

Apple are well known for ripping off ideas from third party developers, they've been at it for years its got its own name in the Mac/Development community.

https://www.economist.com/babbage/2012/07/13/youve-been-sherlocked

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sherlocked

Its one thing on the Mac where third party devs can offer a download outside the App Store but Apple is clearly using the locked down nature of iOS to stifle competition.
 
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It's a bad thing if you don't want multibillion dollar corporations abusing their position to stamp out competition.

By the same logic, is Apple maps anticompetitive, even though google technically landed the first blow by opting to withhold their service from the iOS platform?

I don’t see this as an abuse of power. Rather, in the interest of security and being able to provide a minimum viable experience to their users, Apple realises that there are certain key parts of their infrastructure that they are better off doing themselves, rather than farming out to third party vendors they cannot trust.

And if the consequence here is that some companies feel they are not able to complete on an even footing with Apple, I feel it’s a worthwhile trade off.

After all, Apple offers a default podcast app. That hasn’t stopped developers from releasing their own third party offerings like overcast, which has found its own thriving fan base. So Apple is not unaware of this, and their own offerings tend to come with just the bare functionality so third parties still have a fighting chance.

So I go back to my original point. That Spotify was still proudly trumpeting the benefits of competition late last year shows that they are growing desperate now. The real problem isn’t Apple’s purported anticompetitive practices, but Spotify’s own unsustainable business model.

Spotify really should take a long hard look at cleaning out their own back yard first, rather than biting the hand that feeds them.

I see Apple are worried about Kasperskys ties to the Russian government. They were happy enough to shift iCloud data to China though, funny how that goes ...

Apple does the best they can within the confines of the law. The manner in which Kasperskay accomplishes the way their app works is clearly a blatant security risk and I don’t think Apple was wrong to have quashed it when they did.

At the end of the day, I feel that the safest hands are still Apple’s own.
 
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Their complaint has nothing to do with that at all.

Spotify is burning money and is not able to pay its bills, the only way it can be profitable is by selling subscription, well if you put your product on an Amazon store wouldnt amazon take a cut? Same Applies here Spotify service is trying to Sell subscription on Apples platform but unwilling to share the cut is unfair, Apple is being reasonable here not Anti Competitive.
 
That's exactly what happens here in Australia with Spotify. Their argument is that they should be able to use Apple's in app purchasing (and transaction processing) without paying the fee that everybody else does.

I actually agree with Apple on this one - quite a rare thing for me. Spotify have the choice of selling through their own website and having Apple essentially host the app for free. Yet Spotify aren't happy with this want to have to not pay for sales through the app store. Seems unrealistic given they already have an alternative.

I can see that they will miss some sales as some people will only want to buy through the App store and then Spotify is more expensive than Apple music, but plenty of others will just blindly pay. Would be easier for them just to not accept subscriptions through the App store, and just have Apple host the app.

Do they not realise that Apple could just refuse to host the App on the app store if they rock the boat too much?
 
Well taking in consideration EU Commission's track record things are not looking good for Apple at all.
https://9to5google.com/2019/03/19/android-european-browser-search-choice/
Google announced a handful of Android changes in October to comply with Europe’s antitrust ruling. In the coming months, Google will prompt new and existing mobile users to select a default internet browser and search engine.
Ouch

I can already see it: Apple is announcing a handful of iOS App Store changes in order to comply with Europe’s antitrust ruling etc. :D

Oh and this is still very fresh.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/20/18270891/google-eu-antitrust-fine-adsense-advertising
Google hit with €1.5 billion antitrust fine by EU
 
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First, I disagree they apply the rules consistently. I've given this example numerous times and people can never explain it: You can buy a digital gift card for one month of Spotify on the Amazon iOS app without Apple taking a 30% fee, but buying a month of Spotify directly does require the fee. The gift card is delivered almost instantly via email; it isn't a physical product because it only ever exists digitally. It is a digital product, yet there is no fee. Isn't that clear evidence of the "rule" being applied inconsistently?

Ugh. . . . you are buying a GIFT CARD from Amazon. The transaction from Amazon's perspective is identical to buying a physical book or a toaster. Apple should not know what the nature of the transaction that I perform on the Amazon website and thus all transactions on the Amazon website are not handled through Apple. (Note: since all Kindle purchases made through the Kindle App are by definition electronic, Amazon has disabled purchases through the iOS app since they would be subject to the 30% fee.)

Also, how is the gift card redeemed? from the Amazon website, "This card is redeemable for full price premium subscription purchased directly from spotify.com only" Thus the gift card redemption is not using the iOS IAP. And like all purchases / redemption through the Spotify website, they are not subject to the IAP fee.

At this point, it appears that you are reaching.
 
This is straight from Microsoft to developers:

A better revenue share for developers
Starting later this year, consumer applications (not including games) sold in Microsoft Store will deliver to developers 95% of the revenue earned from the purchase of your application or any in-app products in your application, when a customer uses a deep link to get to and purchase your application. When Microsoft delivers you a customer through any other method, such as in a collection on Microsoft Store or any other owned Microsoft properties, and purchases your application, you will receive 85% of the revenue earned from the purchase of your application or any in-app products in your application

The new fee structure is applicable to purchases made on Windows 10 PC, Windows Mixed Reality, Windows 10 Mobile and Surface Hub devices and excludes purchases on Xbox consoles.

Ah, well, okay. I didn't find that (though I was on the Microsoft site... strange). Of course, I don't know when "later this year" is (and assume that "later" is not now), but at any rate, if this does actually comes to pass, it will certainly be a welcome change for developers. I do, in all honestly, hope all the negative press we're seeing lately about App Store policy does lead to some changes from Apple. I always thought their requirement of not replicating the functionality of Apple's apps was a bit draconian—I mean, what are companies supposed to do if Apple suddenly creates an app for something they're already doing? And while I can understand 30% in the context of getting the App Store off the ground as a business, now that it's clearly running on its own two feet, and earning them solid revenues, it does seem like they could afford to send a little goodwill the devs' way by reducing their cut...
 
Ah, well, okay. I didn't find that (though I was on the Microsoft site... strange). Of course, I don't know when "later this year" is (and assume that "later" is not now), but at any rate, if this does actually comes to pass, it will certainly be a welcome change for developers. I do, in all honestly, hope all the negative press we're seeing lately about App Store policy does lead to some changes from Apple. I always thought their requirement of not replicating the functionality of Apple's apps was a bit draconian—I mean, what are companies supposed to do if Apple suddenly creates an app for something they're already doing? And while I can understand 30% in the context of getting the App Store off the ground as a business, now that it's clearly running on its own two feet, and earning them solid revenues, it does seem like they could afford to send a little goodwill the devs' way by reducing their cut...

Microsoft has a lower cut to try and attract developers. This is exactly how the market works to arrive at competitive rates.

Just like how Recently Epic launched a game store to compete with steam. Epic only takes 12%, and Steam takes 30%.

It's interesting to watch the community reaction to the Epic store, it's mostly people pissed at Epic for daring to go after some exclusives to help them break into the business. With almost no one seeming to care that Epic offers a much better deal to developers.

It could be that we are headed for a shakeup in digital platform pricing if Epic starts making a dent, Steam may have to lower it's rates and start the dominoes falling. Google may then lower it's rates because for PR reasons, as it makes most of it's money from advertising, which it is fairly dominant.

It's easy for Apple to charge 30%, when all the other successful platforms also charge 30%, but if the prevailing rate drops it it might be harder.
 
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It's easy for Apple to charge 30%, when all the other successful platforms also charge 30%, but if the prevailing rate drops it it might be harder.

It all depends on the business that is generated and the popularity of the brand. Apple is able to maintain premium prices due to the desirability of the product. And, the iOS (not Mac) store is a potentially profitable and vibrant place. The iPhone installed user base could allow Apple to maintain their margin. Albeit, every developer would like to have them lower it. ;-)
 
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I really wish they would loosen their control a little on the development side. I paid $99 years back to get my hands on Xcode. It seems at the time that was the only way to get it. Then I let my account expire around the time you could get that stuff for free. Now all the devices I used back then have been replaced and I can't use any of my new devices for testing. Why on earth can't I wipe those old devices out and add three new ones? I'm not even trying to write something for the App Store. If I ever came up with something I felt should go in the store, I'd gladly pay their fees to do so. I have a day job, I just like to play around from time to time. So I either need to pay again to play around as a hobby. Or setup a new, free developer account so I can install something to one of my devices. I understand some of what they do and why. I just wish they could put their heads together and find a better system. On the flip side, it sounds like my company isn't far from jumping into mobile development soon and I've been working for the past couple years to position myself to be on that team. So this could become less hobby and a lot more real later this year.

And to stay on topic, I'm quite interested in seeing the outcome of this case. It should be interesting. As an American, I have my views. But this won't be decided by Americans, so I'm curious to see how it will play out over there.
 
Quite interesting to see than in a thread with over 1000 responses, the comments seem to be more in favour of Apple (or at least, not in favour of Spotify) than the other way around.

Quite unusual for a forum traditionally known for being overly critical and negative towards Apple.

Keep up the PR battle, Apple. Whatever the outcome of the court case may be, I don’t think Spotify will emerged unscathed.

known for being overly critical of Apple? rofl. 95% of this forum believe Apple can do no wrong and will defend the company to the death.
 
Classic Retail...

Retailer purchases wholesale from Manufacturer for $x, and sells for $x+y with y covering retailer costs and profit etc.

This is exactly what Apple is doing with the App Store except for where Apple has normally been the manufacturer, they are the retailer, and instead of purchasing and holding product, they are maintaining a storefront for software. They get a piece of the pie for creating the storefront, and for providing the means for Spotify to offer service to Apple’s customers.
You don't seem to realize that you are describing two very different models.

The App Store mostly resembles selling on commission basis: the developer/publisher of an app gets paid only after a customer bought it and in return Apple keeps a cut for the service of hosting and selling it.

In a classic retail model - as you described it abridged - Apple would have to buy quantities of licenses for all the apps offered in the App Store, estimated on how many copies of each app they expect to be downloaded. And Apple would have to pay the developers up front, bearing the risk of not being able to sell all those licenses opposed to having to pay higher single unit prices if buying in lower quantities.
The developers wouldn't rely entirely on actual downloads of their apps, they already made their yields by selling licenses to Apple (of course they benefit from more downloads, because Apple would have to buy more licenses). Apple in turn would charge their own profit margin to customers.

That doesn't sound anything like the App Store. This is why your analogy about LG wanting a cut from BestBuy's sales to customers is flawed. LG isn't involved in transactions at the end of the distribution chain, they are making money at the start of it by selling to wholesalers. Wether some BestBuy store in the middle of nowhere sells 100 of their TV sets or none - it doesn't directly affect LG's profits.
 
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Burn, Spotify. All I wanted was the ability to enjoy my local files in the Spotify app and also the millions of songs in your catalog.
 
I have kept the free Spotify around for its notoriously good curation and then transferred over to my Apple Music account with apps like SongShift but lately, I’ve found myself doing that less and less. Apple Music has been curating really good playlists with both music I know and have added to my library and music I’ve never ever heard before but instantly love. That was Spotify’s selling point. They’re getting nervous.

Also, it had been useful to keep a Spotify account to share playlists with friends but I’ve been noticing that many of my friends have switched to Apple Music. Every week, I have new follow requests from friends who were on Spotify before. Spotify is losing their grip and they’re terrified. That’s what this lawsuit is all about.
 
As a costumer if you don’t want a walled off garden you have the freedom to buy from a manufacturer who gives you more freedom. One of the reasons I like apples ecosystem is it’s safe and closed off. Just look at all the scam problems associated with fortnight because on android it’s not in the play store

What I believe you fail to understand this that Apple could allow side loading of apps and both you and I could be happy. That would not effect you one bit.
 
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