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I had a bad morning today, and quite frankly, I almost just went off on you for that one. To put it simply, you're using a classic "false equivalence" fallacy here. Amazon gets their piece of the pie in another fashion because they use a different business model, and there is nothing wrong with that. Differences between business models are not, in-and-of-themselves, bad. If you so strongly dislike Apple's business model for some reason, you are entirely free to take your business elsewhere and buy that gift card from Amazon or whoever else you prefer. (The same is true of Spotify -- but perhaps I'm jumping ahead of myself.) Nothing at all about this situation paints Apple as a monopoly; rather, quite to the contrary.
The point isn't to criticize Amazon, it's to point the arbitrariness of Apple's policy. Why aren't all purchases made in iOS apps treated the same?

I came upon an interesting article yesterday, parallel to reading this forum; it contains (among other things) a chart showing the top all-time most popular apps by revenue. The link is just below, but before you click on it, would you care to guess what I found?

9To5Mac.com - These are the all-time most popular iOS apps and games from 2010-2018

In short, Spotify is number two on that particular chart, below only Netflix. That one is not a mere "downloads" chart, either... it's a measure of how profitable is Spotify's business on Apple's iOS ecosystem. So no matter what you might think of Apple's business model, Spotify is immensely successful, in part because of Apple, and the platform and business model that they devised. Or to put it another way: Spotify wouldn't even be able to protest Apple's business model in the first place, if that business model hadn't proven to be such an incredibly lucrative opportunity for Spotify -- talk about a classic example of biting the hand that feeds you!

This article is wrong. You know how I know that? Same reason as above - Apple intentionally doesn't count certain spending.

It's ludicrous to suggest that Spotify had more money spent than Amazon or Walmart. Heck even Uber has about double Spotify's worldwide revenue, and isn't anywhere on that list because Apple doesn't count that as consumer spend.

So the list is meaningless, because it's based on Apple arbitrarily counting and not counting certain spending.

And what is their problem again, exactly? Oh yeah: their profits aren't as high as they want them to be -- and they're already actively squeezing content providers dry, so they need a new target. So their real problem... is their own greed.
If that is how you formulate the "problem" in your head, then there is nothing I can say to convince you. Every single assertion in this sentence is wrong. Literally not one correct statement.

I'm curious: does your discontent with those who supposedly wield monopoly powers also extend to other large corporations, or is your angst targeted exclusively at Apple, for some reason? Because Apple is by no means the only corporation in recent history to have been accused of abusing such powers. Do you also hold that Microsoft should have been broken up, instead of having been given a mere slap on the wrist?

The bottom line is, breaking up big corporations never really fixes the so-called "problems" that people perceive; all it does is change the nature of the issue somewhat -- and really, only for a little while. Breaking up Ma Bell didn't cause prices or policies to "roll back" appreciably for any significant length of time -- if at all -- and not breaking up Microsoft didn't cause the entire computer industry to become permanently beholden to Microsoft.

Nor are we permanently beholden to Apple, right now. Even as successful as they are, they too will eventually be overshadowed by the next "Big Thing." Whatever that might be.
I'm not for breaking up companies, but I am for regulating them and making them work with constraints. I support the EUs recent actions against Google.
 
Well, at worst, Apple could simply capitulate in this regard (allowing Spotify to make mention of this). What's the worst that could happen?

The worst that can happen for Apple is:
- Courts rule in favor of Spotify forcing Apple to lift their requirement to use IAP in iOS in EU.
- 3rd party payment services allow easier integration with major credit card merchants to boutique app developers.
- Apple suffers a hit on IAP participants in the EU

Apple has the potential to lose much more here than Spotify.
 
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... If that is how you formulate the "problem" in your head, then there is nothing I can say to convince you. Every single assertion in this sentence is wrong. Literally not one correct statement. ...
The strength of one's position can often be demonstrated by the effort they put into defending it. Herein, it looks like you've demonstrated that your position holds very little strength, by stating your opinion about my statements, and calling those opinions facts without even pretending to support your views on the matter.

Honestly, given your lack of effort, I'm not even motivated enough to look up exactly which fallacy that is.

(You did get one thing right; you certainly haven't convinced me of your views.)
 
Second, it is actually very unusual. I challenge you to name a single other platform/marketplace that enjoys near monopoly/duopoly market position, where the proprietor of said platform is also a competitor on that same platform.

All the game consoles in the last 30+ years.


They all control their platform just like Apple does, and they all offer their own first party software that competes with the the third party customers of their platforms.
 
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The strength of one's position can often be demonstrated by the effort they put into defending it. Herein, you've demonstrated that your position hold very little strength, by stating your opinion about my statements, and calling those opinions facts without even pretending to support your views on the matter.

Honestly, given your lack of effort, I'm not even motivated enough to look up exactly which fallacy that is.

(You did get one thing right; you certainly haven't convinced me of your views.)

It's not an opinion. Let's break it down:

And what is their problem again, exactly? Oh yeah: their profits aren't as high as they want them to be -- and they're already actively squeezing content providers dry, so they need a new target. So their real problem... is their own greed.
So you're assertion the following:
1. Spotify said their problem is their profits aren't as high as they want them to be.
2. Spotify is actively squeezing content providers dry.
3. Spotify needs a new target.
4. Spotify's problem is greed.

Here's my response.
1. Fact: Spotify's statement doesn't even use the word "profit." Spotify's says their problem is unfair competition.

2. Fact: Spotify pays the content providers the exact same as Apple because these rates are set by statute. They all pay the same rates, so it's just factually wrong to say Spotify is squeezing anyone.

If you are referring to Apple's statement that said "Spotify sued music creators," which others have repeated, this is wrong.

Fact: Spotify is not sueing music creators. Spotify is appealing a CRB decision. Spotify is not seeking to reduce overall rates because Spotify has said they support the rate increase. In fact, Spotify, Amazon, Pandora, Google and others are appealing a decision about mechanical royalty rates. If you read their first appeal, you would know the fight is over the definitions and clarifications of terms such as "limited offerings" and "limited downloads," which these companies thing are too vague. Apparently the issue is tricky on mashups and songs that use a lot of samples. Either way, Spotify will always pay the same rates as Apple because they are set by statute no matter what.

3. This is unsupported speculation on your part. Cite please.

4. This is unsupported speculation on your part. Cite please. Moreover, in my opinion, it is Apple who is greedy here. I don't know what the right rate is, but 15-30% is objectively greedy.
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All the game consoles in the last 30+ years.


They all control their platform just like Apple does, and they all offer their own first party software that competes with the the third party customers of their platforms.

Odd. I can purchase games at Amazon and Best Buy. Game console companies don't control those retail channels.
 
...
You just did above, where you said they developers should get to choose their own app store. Obviously an Appstore that isn't Apples would bypass their approval process.

You're confusing alt app stores with the ability to bypass app approval process. Do you really think apple can't implement a app approval process and have alternative stores?

Apple can still digitally sign all apps. The iPhone right now won't let any app run with out apple digitally signing the app. After the app is signed, the dev can upload the app to his store of choice.
 
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You're confusing alt app stores with the ability to bypass app approval process. Do you really think apple can't implement a app approval process and have alternative stores?

Tell me what is the job of this fantasy alternate App store? Apple still has to approve the apps and pass them but does get to charge it's cut? Is that your fantasy? Because that really doesn't make any sense.
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Odd. I can purchase games at Amazon and Best Buy. Game console companies don't control those retail channels.

Now you are just being disingenuous.

They do control those retail channels, because none of that software is sold with getting prior approval from, and paying the fee/cut to the platform owner. The is no logical difference to the distribution hierarchy between Apples AppStore and console game distribution, it is only in how the final product gets to your machine.
 
Tell me what is the job of this fantasy alternate App store? Apple still has to approve the apps and pass them but does get to charge it's cut? Is that your fantasy? Because that really doesn't make any sense.
...

Who says apple can't charge a fee for SDK or app approval service?
 
First, Apple was not a competitor on their own platform until recently. Before the launch of Apple Music iirc, they didn't really compete with other paid services on the app store.

Second, it is actually very unusual. I challenge you to name a single other platform/marketplace that enjoys near monopoly/duopoly market position, where the proprietor of said platform is also a competitor on that same platform.

Console gaming - Playstation / Xbox.

If you segment the retail market the same way you are the app market then you would have a duopoly. You wouid have variety stores that reach about 20% of US consumers. That would be Walmart, Target and Dollar Tree. Walmart and Target both provide a platform and sell outside products for a fee.

People often call out Walmart selling Walmart-branded stuff, but Walmart does not have a monopoly / is not part of a duopoly on retail. I can go to Target, Costco, Kroger, KMart, etc. If I am a small manufacturer or widgets, and I want to sell my widgets at retail, I have choice. The same cannot be said of app store developers.

Sure it can, and the retail example you gave is a better example of the app market place than as a duopoly. An app developer can chose from a broad array of ways to sell or deliver their product. Phones are but one segment of the large app market. They can produce a web based version, develop versions for any number of OS, some with larger user bases and some with tiny ones. Just as manufacturer can decide to sell through Walmart or not, but if they decide to do they play by Walmart's rules.

And before you say "but those alternative's are not iOS" the point is there are plenty of ways to deliver an app or content besides having an app in the App Store; even to deliver to iPhone users.

Spotify simply wants the benefits of being on the app store without paying Apple; and is disguising the argument by claiming Apple is a monopoly.
 
Now you are just being disingenuous.

They do control those retail channels, because none of that software is sold with getting prior approval from, and paying the fee/cut to the platform owner. The is no logical difference to the distribution hierarchy between Apples AppStore and console game distribution, it is only in how the final product gets to your machine.

The biggest difference is that there is no monopoly/duopoly in gaming. Game developers can distribute on Steam or any number of PC-centered game stores. Some game developers sign exclusivity agreements with Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo, some don't. Thus Sony's and Microsoft's platforms compete with each other directly, whereas the Google Play Store is not a direct competitor of the Apple App Store.

There perhaps isn't as much choice as some economists might say is indicative of a healthy marketplace, but there is enough.

Also, in arguendo, even if we consider Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo to have a triopoly in gaming (which they do not), the situation is still significantly different because those companies do not arbitrarily decide who does or doesn't pay like Apple does.
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Console gaming - Playstation / Xbox.
See my comments above, not a monopoly, not in control of all sales channels, and no arbitrarily decided categories of fee/no fee.

If you segment the retail market the same way you are the app market then you would have a duopoly. You wouid have variety stores that reach about 20% of US consumers. That would be Walmart, Target and Dollar Tree. Walmart and Target both provide a platform and sell outside products for a fee.

First, that's not how retail works. Obviously retail is complicated, and there are tons of exceptions and side deals. That alone is indicative of no monopoly. But generally retailers buy products from manufacturers and then sell them. Thus the manufacturer gets paid before the item is ultimately sold to the consumer.

Second, there is huge choice in retail. I can buy the same light bulb at Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes, CVS, or Amazon. Thus the light bulb company has many ways to reach me, and I have many ways to reach them. The same isn't true of app stores.

Sure it can, and the retail example you gave is a better example of the app market place than as a duopoly. An app developer can chose from a broad array of ways to sell or deliver their product. Phones are but one segment of the large app market. They can produce a web based version, develop versions for any number of OS, some with larger user bases and some with tiny ones. Just as manufacturer can decide to sell through Walmart or not, but if they decide to do they play by Walmart's rules.

And before you say "but those alternative's are not iOS" the point is there are plenty of ways to deliver an app or content besides having an app in the App Store; even to deliver to iPhone users.

Spotify simply wants the benefits of being on the app store without paying Apple; and is disguising the argument by claiming Apple is a monopoly.

There literally isn't any other way and you know it. You cannot stream music through a browser on iOS for hours at a time, it doesn't work. iOS doesn't let you. There are only two mobile OSes that matter, and each one only has a single app store that matters. Thus, if your market is mobile software, you have choice. You have to use both.

It would be one thing if Google had a Play Store on iOS and Apple had an App Store on Android, but they don't. Target can build a store across the street from Walmart, and vice-versa. The same isn't true on mobile software.
 
Who says apple can't charge a fee for SDK or app approval service?

So if they approve the apps and take their cut of the Apps, what exactly is the job of these alternate app stores in your fantasy?

Because in reality whoever owns the apps store approves what SW goes there, and takes their cut. In your Fantasy Apple is still doing everything they do now, but doing it for a third party App store that does what exactly?
 
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...the situation is still significantly different because those companies do not arbitrarily decide who does or doesn't pay like Apple does.

Apple doesn't decide arbitrarily. That's been beaten to death in this thread. Who needs to pay and who doesn't is very clearly spelled out. There is a very clear distinction between those who have to pay and those who don't. Go back a page or two and you ought to be able to find someone explaining the difference.
 
Apple doesn't decide arbitrarily. That's been beaten to death in this thread. Who needs to pay and who doesn't is very clearly spelled out. There is a very clear distinction between those who have to pay and those who don't. Go back a page or two and you ought to be able to find someone explaining the difference.

Nobody has been able to explain this disparity: Why is it buying a Spotify one-month subscription gift card on the Amazon app for nearly immediate email delivery is not charged a 30% fee, but buying a one-month subscription in the Spotify app would be charged a 30% fee? It's functionally the exact same purchase.

What is the difference between booking a monthly cleaning with a maid service on an iOS app (which Apple does not take a cut of) and monthly streaming music service (which Apple does take a cut of)? Both are a fee for service, right?
 
The biggest difference is that there is no monopoly/duopoly in gaming. Game developers can distribute on Steam or any number of PC-centered game stores. Some game developers sign exclusivity agreements with Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo, some don't. Thus Sony's and Microsoft's platforms compete with each other directly, whereas the Google Play Store is not a direct competitor of the Apple App Store.

The big problem I have with your posts, is your tortured rationalizations look more and more disingenuous, which leads to believe you are just arguing in bad faith.

Sony is much more dominant in the console business, than Apple is in mobile.
With 91.6M PS4s sold, Sony continues dominating console generation

Sony has well over half the game console market, Apple has well under half, and I can't even fathom your logic in saying Sony and Microsoft compete with each other but the App Stores don't.

If you want to talk abusive anti-competitive behaviors, you just highlighted one, The console makers actually pay developers to exclude the competing platform, to give themselves an advantage.

What is Apple supposedly guilty of again? Oh yeah, applying the same rules to everyone. :rolleyes:
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Nobody has been able to explain this disparity: Why is it buying a Spotify one-month subscription gift card on the Amazon app for nearly immediate email delivery is not charged a 30% fee, but buying a one-month subscription in the Spotify app would be charged a 30% fee? It's functionally the exact same purchase.

What is the difference between booking a monthly cleaning with a maid service on an iOS app (which Apple does not take a cut of) and monthly streaming music service (which Apple does take a cut of)? Both are a fee for service, right?

Its been explained multiple times by me alone. Apple doesn't charge a cut of physical goods/services. It was in Apples answer to Spotify claims. Which you could have read in 5% of the time you spent complaining, if your interest was something other than just attacking Apple.
 
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Nobody has been able to explain this disparity:

Actually, multiple people have explained it very well. Multiple times. So either you lack the mental capacity to understand that information or just aren't bothering to read the replies and would rather hold on to your incorrect assumptions since they support your position.

Look, Bytor65 explained it. Again.
 
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So if they approve the apps and take their cut of the Apps, what exactly is the job of these alternate app stores in your fantasy?

....

The alt app store can host the app on their file servers, process cc purchases, help promote apps (like Walmart has flyers promoting/advertising products they sell), etc.

Point is apple will need lots of courage to say they deserve 30% cut for doing app approval services.
 
Look, Bytor65 explained it. Again.

Its been explained multiple times by me alone. Apple doesn't charge a cut of physical goods/services. It was in Apples answer to Spotify claims. Which you could have read in 5% of the time you spent complaining, if your interest was something other than just attacking Apple.
How is a gift card code delivered by email a physical good/service? It only ever exists digitally.

That's why this all seems very arbitrary. Indeed that explanation doesn't work for other fee-for-services either. What about Uber is physical that isn't physical with say, for example, Dropbox? With Uber, I pay $X for using a driver and car for Y time. With Dropbox, I pay $X for using server storage and support engineers for Y time. With a dog walker app, I pay $X for a person to walk by dog for Y time. All three have a temporal physical component, but at the end of the day, it's purely a fee for service.

That's what arbitrary about Apple's policy.
 
How is a gift card code delivered by email a physical good/service? It only ever exists digitally.

1. Ask Apple, it's their rules.
2. Better yet, look it up yourself instead of expecting others to explain it to you.
3. There is a difference, regardless of who does or does not understand.

Just because *I* have issues explaining it in a manner that helps you understand, does not make it false. I can't wrap my head around people thinking the earth is flat and don't have a clue how to explain to them that it isn't. But that doesn't make the earth flat.

You might just need to accept this as a fact, regardless of your own understanding.
 
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1. Ask Apple, it's their rules.
2. Better yet, look it up yourself instead of expecting others to explain it to you.
3. There is a difference, regardless of who does or does not understand.

Just because *I* have issues explaining it in a manner that helps you understand, does not make it false. I can't wrap my head around people thinking the earth is flat and don't have a clue how to explain to them that it isn't. But that doesn't make the earth flat.

You might just need to accept this as a fact, regardless of your own understanding.

It looks like it will be Apple's job to explain it to the EU Commission if/when they investigate this.

As I said earlier, nobody has been able to explain these discrepancies in terms that are favorable to Apple. Occam's Razor suggests my explanation is most likely to be correct - that Apple's rules are arbitrary.

It's funny, you believe there is a difference, that Apple has a well-thought-out and reasonable way to differentiate between different types of purchases, but you cannot explain it. Sounds like you're the one that's akin to a flat earther, or a religious person.
 
It's funny, you believe there is a difference, that Apple has a well-thought-out and reasonable way to differentiate between different types of purchases, but you cannot explain it. Sounds like you're the one that's akin to a flat earther, or a religious person.

Sure. We can go that route. Won't change the facts, but if it makes you feel better, why not? I have no skin in this game, so feel free to be as wrong as you'd like to be.
 
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It looks like it will be Apple's job to explain it to the EU Commission if/when they investigate this.

As I said earlier, nobody has been able to explain these discrepancies in terms that are favorable to Apple. Occam's Razor suggests my explanation is most likely to be correct - that Apple's rules are arbitrary.

It's funny, you believe there is a difference, that Apple has a well-thought-out and reasonable way to differentiate between different types of purchases, but you cannot explain it. Sounds like you're the one that's akin to a flat earther, or a religious person.

The difference is simple : is the product being sold digital or not? Uber is not a digital product. Food delivery is not a digital product. Netflix is a digital product. Spotify is a digital product. Pokemon Go is a digital product. If Spotify wanted to open an App the sells CDs, those would not be subject to the 30% fee. But Apple would also not handle that transaction via IAP.

Or think of it this way, Apple cannot verify the delivery or non-delivery of a physical product. Thus they prefer to allow others to directly handle those transactions in case there is an issue. Apple's skill set is in digital distribution.

Is that arbitrary? Perhaps. But they apply their rules consistently. Kinda like in baseball, you can argue with the strike zone that the Umpire is calling. But it is generally accepted if it is applied consistently to every player.
 
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The difference is simple : is the product being sold digital or not? Uber is not a digital product. Food delivery is not a digital product. Netflix is a digital product. Spotify is a digital product. Pokemon Go is a digital product. If Spotify wanted to open an App the sells CDs, those would not be subject to the 30% fee. But Apple would also not handle that transaction via IAP.

Or think of it this way, Apple cannot verify the delivery or non-delivery of a physical product. Thus they prefer to allow others to directly handle those transactions in case there is an issue. Apple's skill set is in digital distribution.

Is that arbitrary? Perhaps. But they apply their rules consistently. Kinda like in baseball, you can argue with the strike zone that the Umpire is calling. But it is generally accepted if it is applied consistently to every player.

I understand the distinction, or at least the intent of it, but it's not that black and white, and there are examples where the distinction falls apart. It isn't consistently applied, and that distinction is very difficult to make because lots have elements that are digital and elements that aren't digital.

First, I disagree they apply the rules consistently. I've given this example numerous times and people can never explain it: You can buy a digital gift card for one month of Spotify on the Amazon iOS app without Apple taking a 30% fee, but buying a month of Spotify directly does require the fee. The gift card is delivered almost instantly via email; it isn't a physical product because it only ever exists digitally. It is a digital product, yet there is no fee. Isn't that clear evidence of the "rule" being applied inconsistently?

I'm not even going to get into eBay, where you can buy all sorts of digital stuff without ebay having to pay a fee.

Second, things are not so black and white. Most of the services you listed are a combination of physical and digital.

For example, Uber's main service is connecting independent drivers to consumers. Uber facilitates the communication, the scheduling, and the payment. But Uber does not actually do anything physical; remember, Uber considers each driver an independent contractor, so it is the independent contractor that does the physical stuff. So really Uber's services are really digital, yet Apple does not charge Uber a fee.

The same applies to food delivery. Grubhub didn't make my food, they're just the broker between me and the restaurant. Is brokering a non-digital product? Apple could charge a 30% fee only on Grubhub's fee, and not charge a 30% fee on the cost of the food itself. But they don't make the distinction there.

On the flip side, as a contra example, Netflix's service is providing me with entertainment by maintaining a huge system of servers. Netflix, at the core, is a content delivery network business. Read their 10-K, this is what Netflix considers one of their primary functions. They maintain huge server farms, and install specific hardware with custom software at ISPs to ensure the content streams fast. It would be accurate to say that paying for Netflix is paying to access their hardware content delivery network that hosts movies and tv shows. So while it is digital, it is also physical in a big way.

The distinction breaks down even more when you look at purely cloud storage companies. What is that if not just paying to rent a piece of a physical storage server for a period of time? Is that digital or physical? It's both!

So Apple doesn't take a cut when renting a car for a month (Turo), but Apple does take a cut when renting a terabyte of storage on a server for a month (any cloud app). How do you circle that square?

Finally, I got a chuckle out of the baseball reference. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the entire business of baseball would normally be a gigantic antitrust violation but for the fact they have a specific exception to the Sherman Antitrust Act. Without that exemption, baseball wouldn't exist as we know it today.
 
It's funny, you believe there is a difference, that Apple has a well-thought-out and reasonable way to differentiate between different types of purchases, but you cannot explain it. Sounds like you're the one that's akin to a flat earther, or a religious person.

You are are asking him to guess the reasons?

I have no Apple association, and can't speak for them.

But there is an obvious massive difference between digital and physical products, that reasonably explains why a platform would take a cut of one, and not the other.

Digital products can copied and distributed infinitely for essentially for free, if a digital product is sold, there is no need worry about inventory, order more from the factor spend money and resources building, more, spending money and fuel sending them to the location.

So Apple doesn't take a cut of the physical product that has real world production/labor costs, it takes the cut where those don't exist.

In digital once you have the original, infinite copies cost nothing, Apple is asking for a cut of the infinite supply, not the finite constrained supply.
 
You are are asking him to guess the reasons?

I have no Apple association, and can't speak for them.

But there is an obvious massive difference between digital and physical products, that reasonably explains why a platform would take a cut of one, and not the other.

Digital products can copied and distributed infinitely for essentially for free, if a digital product is sold, there is no need worry about inventory, order more from the factor spend money and resources building, more, spending money and fuel sending them to the location.

So Apple doesn't take a cut of the physical product that has real world production/labor costs, it takes the cut where those don't exist.

In digital once you have the original, infinite copies cost nothing, Apple is asking for a cut of the infinite supply, not the finite constrained supply.

See this response. Digital vs. non-digital is not so black and white.
 
See this response. Digital vs. non-digital is not so black and white.

Again apply some reason.

Amazon is the worlds largest online retailer most of it's revenue is from physical goods.

How would you handle Amazons store app given the already stated rules for physical vs digital goods?

AFAICT, Amazon and Apple likely have some kind of category agreement about which items fit the bill, and Amazon voluntarily doesn't offer the digital goods on it's store in the iOS app, to avoid paying a cut, and Apple mostly takes them at their word with some spot checks.

With millions of products for sale it's easy to see how some items could slip through the cracks of both Amazons categorization, and Apple spot checks.

Something slipping through the cracks is not evidence that Spotify is somehow being targeted to keep them down.

Also, which product are you talking about because when I look up spotify gift card:
https://www.amazon.com/Spotify-Gift...339&s=gateway&sprefix=spotify+,aps,181&sr=8-1

It says rather explicitly:
  • You will receive a physical gift card in the mail.
 
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