Well, that's what I meant, though maybe course correction wasn't a strong enough phrasing.
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Star Wars the Upcoming Episode 9: Redemption for Disney?
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Well, that's what I meant, though maybe course correction wasn't a strong enough phrasing.
Obi Wan walks around and sits on a log. That's plenty of proof that force ghosts can interact with the physical.
And that's long before Disney or even any of the old EU.
If you've seen the final episode of the Mandalorian, this argument doesn't really stand up. None of the objects you're complaining about being teleported or interacted with could be described as being "alive". Except the lightsaber, technically.
Back to the real world arguments - you can't be serious about this? Scaling stuff down to more realistic levels of size, think of a supercomputer 35 years ago. The size of one, the infrastructure you'd have to build to power it and house it if you were going to build one in the desert (as an analogy for space where there's no utilities etc...) the cost of a Cray XMP for example to the tune of $15m in 1984 - without storage. Storage, by the way, that occupied a space of 24 sq ft for the SSD module.
Now look at an iphone. More powerful. Mass produced in the tens of millions. Contains a battery that can power it for the whole day. Costs less than 1/10000th of the amount that Cray XMP did without even adjusting for inflation.
You'll probably find the ratios of death star:undership cannon are similar to supercomputer+infrastructure:iphone. To say we haven't made those leaps in centuries is laughable.
I kind of liked it.
It doesn't say in the opening crawl "Episode 9 - An apology for Episode 8"; or "We regret allowing Rian Johnson to direct TLJ or having anything to do with the Star Wars universe, and we're REALLY sorry for what he did"; but by the end of the movie, you do get to draw your own conclusions.
It's clear that they've taken on board a lot of the criticisms of TLJ and tried to make the best repair of them with what's left of the franchise. That's key to why I liked it.
With all of that said, RoS is FULL of holes, flaws and forced dialogue / plot devices. The reason for almost all of them is attempt to address the failings of TLJ, and because I really didn't like TLJ, I'm okay with that. But beyond that, this movie also has an extraordinary number of faults and failings and jump-the-shark improbable force powers.
Re JJ Abrams, I don't think he should have been allowed to be involved in this franchise. TFA is a repeat of New Hope, that gave very little for Ep 8 to meaningfully build on, and such plot points that were set up, were abandoned by Johnson in Ep 8, some of them within the first 10 minutes. The damage done to Star Wars in TLJ is irreversible for the foreseeable future, not least because there are some fans that love the new trilogy, and they've done quite well in the box office.
This trilogy suffers from a lack of originality, and that's bad for any franchise. No-one now denies TFA is a copy of New Hope (not even the most die-hard new trilogy fanboys). TLJ copied key plot points from Battlestar Galactica, not very convincingly. ROS's final 'solution' of the threat of the new Empire is copied from Ready Player One, and I don't think that was done very convincingly either (esp given what happened in TLJ).
But the new Trilogy is over now, and thank goodness for that.
One of the biggest failings of the new trilogy is the lack of Luke Skywalker from start to finish. His face and voice were key parts of the trailers and promotional material, and in terms of screen time, dialogue, character development, it was all minimal or awful.
When JJ Abrams took over, the franchise didn't need a reboot. It does now. And it needs one before Mark Hamill gets too old. Marvel did it with Spiderman. Andrew Garfield's movies weren't that good, they ignored them and started again. That's what needs to happen with Star Wars.
It doesn't say in the opening crawl "Episode 9 - An apology for Episode 8"; or "We regret allowing Rian Johnson to direct TLJ or having anything to do with the Star Wars universe, and we're REALLY sorry for what he did"; but by the end of the movie, you do get to draw your own conclusions.
It's clear that they've taken on board a lot of the criticisms of TLJ and tried to make the best repair of them with what's left of the franchise. That's key to why I liked it.
With all of that said, RoS is FULL of holes, flaws and forced dialogue / plot devices. The reason for almost all of them is attempt to address the failings of TLJ, and because I really didn't like TLJ, I'm okay with that. But beyond that, this movie also has an extraordinary number of faults and failings and jump-the-shark improbable force powers.
Re JJ Abrams, I don't think he should have been allowed to be involved in this franchise. TFA is a repeat of New Hope, that gave very little for Ep 8 to meaningfully build on, and such plot points that were set up, were abandoned by Johnson in Ep 8, some of them within the first 10 minutes. The damage done to Star Wars in TLJ is irreversible for the foreseeable future, not least because there are some fans that love the new trilogy, and they've done quite well in the box office.
This trilogy suffers from a lack of originality, and that's bad for any franchise. No-one now denies TFA is a copy of New Hope (not even the most die-hard new trilogy fanboys). TLJ copied key plot points from Battlestar Galactica, not very convincingly. ROS's final 'solution' of the threat of the new Empire is copied from Ready Player One, and I don't think that was done very convincingly either (esp given what happened in TLJ).
The OP force powers of Palp and Rey at the end of the movie really don't work for me at all. Nor does this miraculous super-healing power. If these powers are supposed to be part of this universe, why couldn't they have been used throughout the prequels?
But the new Trilogy is over now, and thank goodness for that.
One of the biggest failings of the new trilogy is the lack of Luke Skywalker from start to finish. His face and voice were key parts of the trailers and promotional material, and in terms of screen time, dialogue, character development, it was all minimal or awful.
The Skywalker name in RoS, is deeply misleading as well. There is no 'Rise' of anyone called Skywalker. It would better be called Redemption of the Palpatines.
When JJ Abrams took over, the franchise didn't need a reboot. It does now. And it needs one before Mark Hamill gets too old. Marvel did it with Spiderman. Andrew Garfield's movies weren't that good, they ignored them and started again. That's what needs to happen with Star Wars.
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I agree with you and that's really sad for the new actors who came on board as I really liked them and thought their potential was really wasted, especially if a re-boot is done.
I saw it and I liked it. I’ll make this short and sweet.
The original trilogy, like this movie, were made as popcorn chewing movies packed with likeable characters, thrilling adventures, and dazzling special effects. To enjoy any of these movies, they only work when you park your brain at the door and enjoy the show. There isn’t now, and there never was, any other basis for these movies.
Nevertheless, there are 1 hour plus “reviews” for this less than 2.5 hour movie online that practically examine every single frame of the movie with mind boggling minutiae about their perception of Star Wars lore and supposed plot holes and God-knows-what that they think the movie missed. At the end of the day - and that’s pretty much where you’re at after listening to the review - the conclusion is basically simple. These folks are taking this stuff way too seriously and these movies clearly were never intended to be taken that way.
The only thing I would agree with is that this final trilogy did suffer from the lack of a story to be told over three films. Each director was able to basically made up their own version of what should happen in the next movie which resulted in TLJ, probably one of the worst films in the series and a failure as the middle episode of a three episode story.
The original trilogy, like this movie, were made as popcorn chewing movies packed with likeable characters, thrilling adventures, and dazzling special effects. To enjoy any of these movies, they only work when you park your brain at the door and enjoy the show. There isn’t now, and there never was, any other basis for these movies.
Nevertheless, there are 1 hour plus “reviews” for this less than 2.5 hour movie online that practically examine every single frame of the movie with mind boggling minutiae about their perception of Star Wars lore and supposed plot holes and God-knows-what that they think the movie missed. At the end of the day - and that’s pretty much where you’re at after listening to the review - the conclusion is basically simple. These folks are taking this stuff way too seriously and these movies clearly were never intended to be taken that way.
The only thing I would agree with is that this final trilogy did suffer from the lack of a story to be told over three films. Each director was able to basically made up their own version of what should happen in the next movie which resulted in TLJ, probably one of the worst films in the series and a failure as the middle episode of a three episode story.
I agree with you. The original trilogy was released during a very different era, decades before online forums and social media made it possible for millions of people to dissect and discuss movies in great detail. In those days, we talked about them with friends and family and maybe read a handful of reviews. I remember leaving the theater after seeing A New Hope in 1977 and immensely enjoying it for what it was.
I did enjoy RoS, but as you said, the writers were hamstrung by the absence of a coherent three-episode arc. Still, it would have been much better without so many illogical plot elements that were only introduced to get to the next point in the story and presumably make the audience feel good about beloved characters. In many ways, I feel the same way as I did about the final season of Game of Thrones, especially the finale.
I agree re the new characters and actors. Just as Hamill was stuck with how his part was written in TLJ, but out of professionalism tried to do it as well as he could, so Ridley, Boyega, Driver and the others were hamstrung with theirs. I particularly feel sorry for the girl cast as Rose Tico; all of that hate because she was cast as a character that Johnson wrote badly.
There was plenty of scope for these characters to be interesting:
- The bromance between Finn and Poe.
- The budding romance between Finn and Rey.
- Rey's journey from backwater planet to meet the heroes of the Rebellion and then play a part in the next chapter
- Rey's journey to becoming a jedi.
- Poe's fighter pilot abilities and back story.
- Ren and Hux's counterpoint to the Finn-Poe bromance, and their competing in service to Snoke.
- Han's post OT story - there were a lot of funny lines and moments in TFA.
- Luke's Post-OT adventures and development as a jedi master / leader
The RoS was an ok ending to a very mediocre trilogy. Hopefully, there will be more movies like Rogue One in the future.
RoS was a very, very poor film. JJ Abrams dumped glitter and lens flare all over the whole thing.
Say what you want about TLJ, but at least RJ tried things. This was more uninventive rehash with a ton of scenes which have temporary emotional weight only to be outdone within 10 minutes.
Say what you want about TLJ, but at least RJ tried things. This was more uninventive rehash with a ton of scenes which have temporary emotional weight only to be outdone within 10 minutes.
That seems to be the major justification for TLJ. Johnson wanted to move the story into areas the audience wouldn’t expect or anticipate. The problem with that is simply introducing subversive or unexpected plot elements to a preexisting story is no guarantee of a good movie and more often than not opens the door for the movie to be perceived at best as being out of touch with the storytelling. So instead of disruptive and bold, it’s puzzling and confusing.
Basically Johnson didn’t seem to understand from the beginning what the role of the second movie of a 3-part series should be, and if he did he didn’t want to abide by it. The second movie actually should be disruptive but in a way that advances the existing characters and plot towards an unexpected predicament that leaves the audience with anticipation for its resolution in the following film. In other words, a cliffhanger.
But TLJ didn’t do that At 2.5 hours it’s much more of a standalone movie that:
- Kills off the movie’s major villain
- Portrays one of the franchise’s most beloved hero characters in a way that seems totally disconnected from the character developed in the earlier films, and then kills him off too.
- Of the few new characters introduced in TLJ, none have a arc that could bring them into the final film (which includes Rose Tico, as there basically no further story for her that would have a consequence in the final film)
- Resolves the key question of who Rey’s parents are. They are “nobody” and so the obvious question as to how she has force powers is now meaningless.
So all in all RoS had its work cut our for it.
I've been confused with this logic. Johnson wasn't handed free rein, he had a boss in Kathleen Kennedy who had to approve and sign off on the decisions made. Decisions she's said she was happy with. We know this is true from the changing of directors in both Rogue One & Solo. So RJ didn't "not understand", he went in a direction that Kennedy & Co wanted to go for the future of Star Wars. They as much as RJ didn't count on the resistance to change that a very vocal base of SW fans would have. I'm also sure no one expected the toxicity that developed during the new trilogy towards the new actors/characters.
https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019...edi-kathleen-kennedy-backlash-fans-challenge/
Kennedy & Co seemed to learn from the very vocal base that they do actually want the same films over & over, unless it's a clear breach from previous SW material. So a course correction was made to appease the very vocal base, but it still didn't result in the numbers they got with TLJ. So there is no winning with this run, which means we will likely get material divorced from the Skywalkers for quite awhile.
Thanks for this input. One of the key takeaways from this is that lucasfilm is calling the shots, not Disney, who seems to be the target for complaints about these movies.
This is the quote from Kennedy from the same link you provided that got me:
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think she was involved in the making of the original Star Wars trilogy. In any event, the Indiana Jones movies were stand-alone movies, a series not a trilogy. George likes to refer to them as a trilogy like the Star Wars trilogy and it apparently stuck. But they are more like James Bond movies from which the Indiana Jones movies took inspiration. Separate movies involving the same heroes, but the story and villains change with each new film.
But the kicker is that you will find no greater adamant critic of temple of doom than its director, Steven Spielberg, who has been vocal in that he didn’t feel that going dark in the second IJ film was the direction to take the series but made the movie in deference to Lucas. He said that when it came time to make the last crusade, he wanted to make it first and foremost as an “apology” for temple of doom.
Eyebrow raising, huh?
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No. She had no direct ties to Star Wars, until joining with Lucas in Lucasfilm in ( directly would be Force Awakens in 2015 ) 2012. Her thoughts on the triologies are her personal takeaways it seems from the original 3 Star Wars & what the purpose of a trilogy of films was intended. The beginning/set up, middle/conflict ( since Empire, can end on a depressing or low note ), end/triumph.
TLJ is also in ways similar to Empire the middle of the triology in that Empire wasn't looked fondly on when it was released as well.
http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/
So you can kind of see where her thinking was coming from.
I was around when the original trilogy was released and agree for the most part what that article tries to recapture - although I don’t remember much in the way of criticism of ESB. Generally quite the opposite. I do remember the “controversy” over Luke’s father and Yoda’s ”there is another” and endless debates about those issues. But that was the great thing about ESB back then, you had something to talk about for the next film - various predictions, more debates about those predictions, who will survive, who won‘t, and it all went on and on all the way up until ROJ hit the theaters.
With TLJ there wasn’t anything like that. There just wasn’t anything like that to talk about. Everyone knew the final episode was coming and that’s about it.
I'd argue in part that you didn't get those discussions then because the whole trilogy thing was a novel thing at the time. We didn't get that much with TLJ because it was pretty much replaced with degrees of toxicity about characters & fan entitlement because they didn't get the story they thought they should.
Check any articles about ESB and you'll often see part about how NOW it's seem as the best of the trilogy, but back then it wasn't so loved for the changeup in story direction & style.
Well again I was around then, I wasn’t a baby, and you got those discussions about Luke’s father, the “other” and so on ad nausem from fans about ESB (not at all hard to find by the time ESB hit the theaters) there just wasn’t the internet around to record and memorialize them for posterity. Whether it was coworkers, friends, parties, basically any social gathering was game. Insofar as criticism of ESB, there were arguments about whether it was better than the first film, and I don’t remember exactly what if any consensus there was back then, it might have been 50-50. Nevertheless ESB was still held in high regard even if the first film was your vote as the better of the two. Generally everyone liked both - a lot. And the anticipation for ROJ was huge. No need at the time for any internet fueled hype.
BTW, the concept of a trilogy wasn’t exactly “novel” back then because folks had either seen some of the serial movies that SW took inspiration from or if not were at least aware of them. And Bond movies were still going strong at the time as well. So the notion that Star Wars would be a trilogy wasn’t exactly difficult at all to wrap your head around. Quite the opposite, everyone wanted another Star Wars film, another chapter, another episode, another anything, planned or not.
At least until the Star Wars Christmas special came out...
I was around as well to see ESB as a kid in the theaters and movie trilogies were not a thing as they are now. How many trilogies can you name off hand before Star Wars and Lucas' announcement about there being a trilogy of films? Not recurring series like Bond movies, but specifically trilogies of stories? It just wasn't a common thing with a flowing narrative until the success of Star Wars made it a recurring option to be sought after. It just wasn't the norm.
I myself because of my age was completely unaware of the serials & Japanese movies, because until the movie's success such awareness wasn't as well known. Star Wars basically brought us that serialized movie storyline approach that so many wanted to emulate after, but with the beginning/middle/end format.
As I said though, if you go back and look at the reviews and articles about ESB, time has been it's greatest ally. For many reviews the change up wasn't as well received because of the unexpected change up of tone. ESB NOW is revered, but it wasn't as well loved at release. What it was known more for as you point out is the Luke/Vader reveal. The endless discussions about Boba Fett's identity, with it being Diana Rigg, or Luke's real mother under the helmet, to even wilder guesses. And a dismemberment. The speculation was what ESB was known best for for awhile. TLJ sought to just toss that aspect out, no guessing about Rey's parentage because it was decided to allow anyone could be Jedi, it wasn't about chosen one's or a specific family line. Which of course some absolutely hated.
Well sure at the time stars wars packaged as a trilogy was new. But my point was that at the time, after the first movie, everyone just wanted another Star Wars movie and it didn’t matter if it was a trilogy or two trilogies or a series. It became a big deal after the success of first three films and subsequently used in later movies, mostly intentionally and at least once unintentionally (back to the future).
I actually don’t have any problem with the notion that anyone could have force powers and find themselves on the Jedi recruitment list. The problem I have is that notion is introduced for the first time in the next to final movie. So what do you do with that information in the next movie - the final Star Wars movie? Does Rey just have her force powers in the final film and well that’s all there is to it? Is that dramatic revelation something to look forward to? Or do some of the other already established characters suddenly wake up one day and realize that they too also have the force because now anyone can. Better get trained real quick, this movie is going to be over soon...is that something the audience would buy? Or how about a slew of new characters never seen before join the cast as unexplained possessors of the force. Quick somebody train us as jedis so we can join the resistance and save the day in the great final battle against...who by the way? Snoke? He’s dead. Who are we fighting again? Kylo Ren? With that unmasked innocent looking face he looks like he’s minutes away from turning to the light. Afterwards he’ll be busy crying so he can’t help in the final battle against...who are we fighting?
Maybe Hux suddenly realizes he has the force and turns to the dark side as a new sith. He’s had in for Kylo all along so now he can kill him and become the new supreme leader and...okay that might work. TLJ was great.
No-one hated the idea that jedi could come from any species irrespective of background. On the contrary, it's Star Wars Canon that Jedi weren't supposed to love, let alone have families. Attachment was forbidden. All jedi in the OT and prequels therefore were recruited without having jedi parents.
Time won't be kind to TLJ. The story dead ends, such as the casino plot are pointless wastes of screen time. The abandonment of plot lines from TFA look more disjointed than ever now that we have the RoS.
In Game of Thrones there were story elements that ended unexpectedly and viewers loved it, but that was because it was part of a greater story arc, that was told in thousands of pages of the novels, and also over many hours of episodes in a multi-series television show. It has the screen time and the source material to justify them. A 2 hour (or even a 2 and a half hour movie) can't waste that much screen time.
The critics will have appreciated the Rashomon movie reference. The critics will have known that New Hope is based in large part on Akira Kurosawa's film Hidden Fortress, and Rashomon was another of Kurosawa's influential movies. Having the hero from the OT portrayed as someone that murders children/students in their sleep, or even contemplates doing it does bring a dark Game of Thrones element to the franchise. But is it consistent with the characters and the themes of the OT? No.
There are elements that would appeal to the critics in TLJ, reviewers are also susceptible to hype. Expectations were high. Rian Johnson was a well thought of director before that point. The movie itself, however will come to be seen as a disastrous mis-step in a popular (and valuable) franchise.
Indeed.
Plus, Qui Gon tells Anakins mother that if they had been closer to the core worlds, Anakin would have likely been identified as having a connection to the force and been trained much earlier.
So it's not at all a new notion that anyone can become a Jedi
Well if you must cite the worst most ridiculous most boring most idiotic Star Wars movies ever made by far, fine. I haven’t watched the travesty in decades because they should be ignored, forgotten and regarded as a colossal mistake in an otherwise good story told by the original trilogy, but nevertheless insofar as Skywalker senior was concerned, the prequels portray his mother, who has no force powers, apparently, claiming that his father is unknown and she just woke up one day and lo and behold she’s pregnant! So out pops Anakin Skywalker, just like that. And even though it makes no sense, couldn't be more stupid, apparently some are fully on board with this nonsense because George Lucas, long detached from those early days of making original trilogy and a far different man now than he was back then, wrote this slop.
in any event, since Anakin Skywalker’s parentage consists of one normal regular person and a no-show, that doesn’t qualify him for TLJ‘s anybody from ordinary parents could have force powers pretext unless Anakin Skywalker provides undeniable proof that his father, or other mysterious hereto unidentified supernatural entity causing his mother to become pregnant with him, was also a normal regular person.