Steve Jobs at Paris

[jxyama]

Originally posted by hose this!
Umm, maybe if all you want is a $2000 word processor/web browser.

I work side by side with someone who uses a 867 MHz 15.2" TiBook. We use our laptops to do some pretty heavy lifting in Photoshop 7, Illustrator 10, and Acrobat. My laptop keep ups with his and in some apps, even makes it seem pokey. What's my laptop? A 3-year old 850MHz PIII Vaio running XP pro with 256 RAM. Oh, but I also have the disadvantage of having all those pixels in a 1400 x 1050 display.

Don't get me wrong - I would love to be the proud happy owner of a mac laptop, but c'mon $2000 is A LOT of money to spend on a laptop that isn't that much faster and has lower resolution than my 3yr old machine, even if it is lighter, has better battery life, and looks prettier.

while i can't say much in concrete terms, i find it hard to believe your p3 with 256 mb ram with xp pro wouldn't be "much" slower than 867 g4. there's a lot of room for subjective judgement there... i would think xp pro with just 256 mb would be quite sluggish, regardless of comparing to 867.

regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet. if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

one of the advantages of g5 is expanded memory access. how many slots or $$$ would you need to take advantage of this when 512 mb SODIMM modules cost nearly $100 and a 1 gb, over $500? faster fsb is nice, for sure, but i really think it's a wishful thinking at this point.

instead of thinking "what's technically possible," we need to ask "what makes the best business sense for apple" because that's how apple (and any other business) operates.

 

[Foocha]

Right now, Steve Jobs is mulling over the problem of whether to launch an inferior iTunes Music Store Europe at the Expo or wait and risk disappoint the crowds in order to hold out against the record companies a little longer for a better deal.

He's likely to favour the latter option and just give a "coming soon" message at the keynote.

Then we'll have lots of Euro-griping on the boards!

That's my bet, anyways.

 

[AllenPSU]

Deal ends...

The deal on the iPod also ends this Wednesday.

Decisions, decisions… buy a laptop now and save $200 on a pod or wait for who knows what?

---- EDIT -----
OOPS!!!

I must have written the date down wrong. Glad to find out that the deal ends in Sept and not Aug.

 

[AllenPSU]

Originally posted by panphage
A stevenote. My G5 powerbook theory is now a given. 😀

The G5 is going to be a stretch.

 

[jaedreth]

Stevenote

Not necessarily. How many stevenotes have ended with thousands of faithful online webcasting watchers thinking, "That was LAME!", not referring to Steve's infamous presentation, but the number of *actual* new shipping products? (Or lack thereof)

Jaedreth

 

[AllenPSU]

Re: Stevenote

Originally posted by jaedreth
Not necessarily. How many stevenotes have ended with thousands of faithful online webcasting watchers thinking, "That was LAME!", not referring to Steve's infamous presentation, but the number of *actual* new shipping products? (Or lack thereof)

Jaedreth

You're right. He could simply announce the shipping of 10.3.

The PBook, iMac and soon the iBook are due for updates though.

 

[blueBomber]

All I want is a g4 ibook and an alBook 15".

I could live with those for now...

 

[Vonnie]

Well, I'm hoping for european support in iTunes, Sherlock and maybe iPhoto. Maybe the announcement of european apple stores in paris, london and brussels. That would be cool.

But that's just the small announcements, i have no idea what the big one will be. Whatever it is, I will probably not be able to afford it 🙂

 

[nagromme]

What iPod deal ends this Wed? I thought the current laptop deals ($200 off iPod--for education--and $100 off printer) ran through Sept. 27, not Aug 27... ?

EDIT: PDF here says 9/27:
http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/buy_a_bundle_terms073003.html

Also, as far as G4 PowerBooks being an "embarrassment" now that the G5 exists, and the fact that many people will wait for a G5 no matter what... that doesn't change what's POSSIBLE for Apple. Apple will do what they can--and I do think an updated G4 PowerBook would be a very good buy and very competitive in performance.

(Again, I AM one of the ones who will wait for a G5... or possibly a dual G4 17" if Apple were to do that.)

 

[xtekdiver]

Originally posted by jxyama
i don't think there'll be a g5 PB for business reasons. g5 PM is hardly shipping and i think apple believes g4 still has some life left in it as a laptop cpu.

That's a good point about the G5 PMs and you may be right; however, I think the higher end dual G5 PMs have such incredible stats, that a lower MHz and single processor G5 PB would not eat into the sales of these higher end workstations. I think the G4 chips have lagged so far behind that doing minor updates on them will hurt sales of PBs. I think most people will opt to wait for the G5 PBs if that is the case, except for the few of us who really need a laptop soon.

 

[you]

Originally posted by nagromme
What iPod deal ends this Wed? I thought the current laptop deals ($200 off iPod and $100 off printer) ran through Sept. 27, not Aug 27... ?

thats what i thought too... thats what the apple store says

 

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by jxyama
regardless, as i wrote before, i don't think there's much incentive for apple to let a g5 pb eat into the sales of g5 PM. just not yet.

This is like chopping off your arm to get rid of the pain of a paper cut.

Originally posted by jxyama
if apple were to dumb down the g5 in PB so it won't compete against the PM, then is there still a point to using g5 in a PB to begin with?

Yes, there is. The G5 gives us a fast memory bus, which will speed up the powerbook enormously.

Originally posted by jxyama
one of the advantages of g5 is expanded memory access. how many slots or $$$ would you need to take advantage of this when 512 mb SODIMM modules cost nearly $100 and a 1 gb, over $500? faster fsb is nice, for sure, but i really think it's a wishful thinking at this point.

Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Originally posted by jxyama
instead of thinking "what's technically possible," we need to ask "what makes the best business sense for apple" because that's how apple (and any other business) operates.

Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

 

[avus]

Re: Re: Stevenote

Originally posted by jaedreth
Not necessarily. How many stevenotes have ended with thousands of faithful online webcasting watchers thinking, "That was LAME!", not referring to Steve's infamous presentation, but the number of *actual* new shipping products? (Or lack thereof)

Originally posted by AllenPSU
You're right. He could simply announce the shipping of 10.3.

That's last year... Apple decided to cut down major events from 3 Macworlds/1 Apple Expo/WWDC to just 1 Macworld/1 Apple Expo/WWDC to avoid that kind of letdowns. Steve and Co. (I think) now want to include major product announcements in every Stevenotes - whether it is software related (Euro iTMS is a HUGE news) or hardware related (I don't even want to speculate on that).

 

[jxyama]

Originally posted by soggywulf
Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

apple laptops are thin and compact. tell me how to stuff a dual banked ram in enough capacity to be taking advantage of g5 into a powerbook. (or would you think mac heads won't complain about bigger pb's just because it's got g5 in it?)

powerbook with g4 is not crappy. g5 is superb, no doubt. but that doesn't make g4 pb crappy. (rather, it's no more crappier than they were before g5 introduction.) if you need all the ghz, you should get a g5 pm, no question. however, to claim that g4 pb is suddenly useless or along that line is ridiculous. 15" ti, in comparison to 12/17" is outdated and should be updated. i just don't think it will be a g5 pb. if i'm wrong, great, but i don't want you to be pissed if g5 pb isn't released and start ranting that "apple is screwing the customers."

as some else wrote earlier, g4 pb is not "word processor/web browser" machine. i'm sure some will buy a $4000 15" g5 powerbook just because they need to render their movies fast on the road - however, that's not a very viable market.

 

[tizza]

well I guess every day that new PB's don't come out makes the next day even more likely! I guess we can say that this:
P(PB announcments at Mac Expo | no previous PB announcements are made) = 1.0

I mean really how much longer can they drag this on??

 

[Peyote]

OH GAWD!


Ok, Steve if you're reading, please either tell these people when the new PB's are coming, or go ahead and release them in Paris. I am so sick of hearing 5 rumors a week saying "maybe PB's are coming, maybe PB's are coming, oh this must mean PB's are coming!" Get over it people! It will be relesaed when it is released. No sooner. No amount of wishing will change that. All you rabid PB people need to just settle down and chill.

 

[tizza]

Originally posted by Peyote
OH GAWD!


Ok, Steve if you're reading, please either tell these people when the new PB's are coming, or go ahead and release them in Paris. I am so sick of hearing 5 rumors a week saying "maybe PB's are coming, maybe PB's are coming, oh this must mean PB's are coming!" Get over it people! It will be relesaed when it is released. No sooner. No amount of wishing will change that. All you rabid PB people need to just settle down and chill.

Ummm - well this IS a rumors site! If we just want the raw facts we'd just go to apple.com ... 😉

 

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by jxyama
apple laptops are thin and compact. tell me how to stuff a dual banked ram in enough capacity to be taking advantage of g5 into a powerbook. (or would you think mac heads won't complain about bigger pb's just because it's got g5 in it?)

You (or, I should say, Apple) can't put two SODIMMs in a 1" form factor?

Originally posted by jxyama
powerbook with g4 is not crappy. g5 is superb, no doubt. but that doesn't make g4 pb crappy.

If it was priced like an ibook, then it wouldn't be crappy. Because that's the level of performance the G4 has or can have according to the rumors that we have heard thus far. 10 years ago a Quadra 950 was a butt-kicking machine. Would you pay $3000 for one today?

Originally posted by jxyama
i just don't think it will be a g5 pb. if i'm wrong, great, but i don't want you to be pissed if g5 pb isn't released and start ranting that "apple is screwing the customers."

You yourself have stated that Apple has to look at the "business case" for releasing a G5 laptop, with regards to cannibalizing PM sales etc. If Apple had the technical ability to design a G5 laptop to be released now (and I have seen *very little if any* evidence to the contrary), and if they release another G4 powerbook with ibook-level performance and keep the same price points, then yes, in fact, they are screwing their customers.

Originally posted by jxyama
as some else wrote earlier, g4 pb is not "word processor/web browser" machine. i'm sure some will buy a $4000 15" g5 powerbook just because they need to render their movies fast on the road - however, that's not a very viable market.

Umm...there isn't a viable market for faster laptops? Where have you been the last 10 years?? The computer industry has been breaking its bones struggling to make laptops faster all this time...why didn't you tell them it was a waste of time??

OK. Sorry for the sarcasm. 🙂 Anyway, no indeed the powerbook is not just supposed to be a web browsing machine...that's why it needs the G5.

 

[reedm007]

Give it a rest!

Originally posted by soggywulf
This is like chopping off your arm to get rid of the pain of a paper cut.

Yes, there is. The G5 gives us a fast memory bus, which will speed up the powerbook enormously.

Why? Current powerbooks use DDR266 and DDR333. If you use these same modules in a dual-bank configuration, that is fast enough to supply a 500-600 MHz FSB. Wintel laptops are already at 400 MHz FSB. Why can't Apple at least match that?

Whoa, this is out of control. First of all, the PowerMac G5 is completely redesigned over the G4. *Completely*. It uses a different Mobo, different bus, etc. Now, given all the time an energy the spent getting that done, and the difficulties IBM is having producing enough chips to keep up with demand (although thank GOD nothing like the problems Motorola had), I don't think putting out a G5 laptop is viable.

Energy management is a huge issue with the new G5s, and in order to get a G5 in a PBook, it would have to be completely redesigned from the inside. Given that these PBooks just got released in January, I don't think a complete redesign is in order yet.

Plus, you make a bizarre analogy of cutting of your arm, but I see selling G5 PowerBooks right now *could* impact Apple's bottom-line. The towers are selling well. Why don't they wait until the tower sales taper off and *then* sell the PBooks? That seems like good business sense. If you have both offered at the same time, people will choose between the two. If you offer them an amazing tower now, many people (me, for instance) will forego portability because I just want the G5 so badly. Then, when G5 PBooks come out next year, I'll buy one of those too. 2 sales.

Originally posted by soggywulf
Right. So it would make business sense for them to consciously release a crappy powerbook revision? The only reason for such a decision would be to make large short term profits by screwing the customers. So I hope they are not planning on doing this.

The G4 is not crappy. I use G3s every day for business and they work extremely well. I would love to have a G4. And it comes down to what's technically feasible as well. If they can't get a G5 into a laptop until January for technical issues, wouldn't you rather have an update in the G4 PowerBook line instead of making it suffer because "people would think it's crappy and would get pissed"?? I don't understand the logic. Every revision is better than the previous one. Why be upset when a revision happens?

 

[andyduncan]

Maybe it's just an excuse for Esteban to visit Jean Marie Hullot...

 

[nitropowered]

Originally posted by soggywulf
You (or, I should say, Apple) can't put two SODIMMs in a 1" form factor?

The 15" Ti books (at least the one my dad has, 667 DVI model) has two sodimm slots so a dual bank config is totally possible on future powerbooks. the 17" also has two slots, its just the 12" and ibooks with only one slot.

 

[jxyama]

soggywulf,

have you seen the 12" pb disassembled? there are two slots (1 on mobo, 1 ext) for RAM and there really isn't much more room. to get 2 gigs on two SODIMM RAM, you'd need close to (if not over) $1000...

i never said there's no market for a faster laptop. i said there's not much of a viable market for "as fast as a desktop but at twice the price" laptop at $4,000 range.

sing. proc. g4 at 1 ghz was priced around $1500 (maybe cheaper) for PM and $3000+ for PB back when 17" pb came out. if sing. proc. g5 at 1.6 ghz is $2000, then PB would be $4,000? if people are complaining about how much money apple costs, how $2,000 is such a lot of money for a 15" PB, etc., etc., do you think there'll be enough people buying $4k g5 pb to justify apple spending all r&d on re-designs, cooling etc.?

i personally think apple would be better served focusing on g5 PM for now... and make PB updated with the best g4 can offer. early next year, once supply for g5 stablizes and cpu/hd/ram prices come down, they can release a g5 pb. i just think it would be a hasty job for apple to release a g5 pb.

of course, i'd love to be wrong. but i kinda doubt it.

 

[jxyama]

Originally posted by nitropowered
The 15" Ti books (at least the one my dad has, 667 DVI model) has two sodimm slots so a dual bank config is totally possible on future powerbooks. the 17" also has two slots, its just the 12" and ibooks with only one slot.

what i implied in my first post about ram slots is that in order to get more than 1 gb at reasonable prices, you will need more than two slots. i never said two slots can't be fitted into a powerbook because you obviously can.

if there are only two slots, the most you can have right now is 2 gb, using two 1 gb RAM. but each 1 gb SODIMM is over $500 right now. that's a lot of money to spend on memory, if you ask me.

 

[centauratlas]

My predictions

This is what I think we'll see at -or around- Mac Expo Paris. Just my personal guesses:
1. PB speedbumps, plus a 15 updated to equiv of the 12 and 17 - all G4s. (Hopefully increased maximum memory for the 12")
2. Panther demo's with a "coming soon" including things like Bluetooth keyboard, mice. Disk encryption etc.
3. Updates to several iApps, perhaps demos of the updated Appleworks (less likely). Perhaps iChatAV demo for Windows (e.g. via AOL)(less likely).
4. Updated iMacs - speed bumps, Firewire 800 etc.
5. "Shipping" dual 2GHz G5s.
6. 10.2.7 update

What I would *love* to see, but think unlikely (hope I am wrong):
1. iTMS for Windows, unless it is just a demo with a coming soon (this should be a huge priority for them - 1st mover advantage and all). Apple needs this and iChatAV for Windows.
2. iChatAV beta for Windows
3. Bigger iPods plus new accessories and periphs. Perhaps Bluetooth synching
4. 10.3. This is possible since they seemed to be shooting for Sept/Oct earlier in the year but things got pushed back for the dev conf, but perhaps it will be "shipping soon".
5. PB G5 - I still don't think the heat is an issue at 1-1.2 GHz. But for other reasons I think it unlikely in the Aug-Oct time-frame, unfortunately. Steve wants to be the one to announce the "world's first 64-bit laptop" (in all sizes). That is a no-brainer. ;-) But the issue is that until Apple can *ensure* that it can ship all the G5 PMs that are being ordered with enough 970s extra, it won't go with the PB G5. It needs something shipping in bulk to keep the $ coming in.
6. If no PB G5, perhaps a dual G4. That would be nice (unlikely, but nice).

 

[rdowns]

. For Steve Jobs to announce a minor update to the G4 PB, at this late date, would be simply embarrasing. Jobs goes for the spotlight, the headlines, the total "wow" factor. I believe he will announce a lower MHz G5 Powerbook at Paris. It is the year of the Laptop after all. But what am I going to do about VPC?😕 [/B]

I think there will be a lot for him to announce, see all the other posts in here. I think a G5 laptop pre-announcement would be in order.

The PowerBook G5, the world's fastest laptop. Order one today for Xmas delivery!