Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation

[parapup]

There are no direct returns on JVM development. If Java doesn't exist on all major platforms, it hurts the brand and the claimed benefits of its virtual machine.

That argument is moot on OSX as Java as a whole is made "deprecated" by Apple. So sure you can make a JVM for OSX in the hope that people will go against Apple's deprecation and use it and secondly also hope that Steve will continue to let you side-load the JVM on Macs for long - that just doesn't make logical sense though.

 

[mdatwood]

From the Oracle web site:



http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/java/index.html

Haha...you should follow your own link to download java...

Apple Computer supplies their own version of Java. Use the Software Update feature (available on the Apple menu) to check that you have the most up-to-date version of Java for your Mac.

Oracle should probably update that text to state..."not for much longer."

 

[co4nd]

Not sure about that.

There's 2 problems with this.

1) Business customers will not get any comfort from "this might not be the best way to do it". What they want is certainty that they can spend money on pro-level mac hardware for their software development teams and it's not a wasted investment. Until there is certainty them - for sure - those purchases will be on hold.

2) There's this assumption that because OS X is bigger now, Oracle will jump in and support it directly. Ain't neccesarily so. Consider: Java is mostly prevalent in the server space - and Oracle has a big linux investment, so JVM on linux makes sense. By covering that and Windows, they give a huge set of platform coverage for the development side. Now, consider - if Oracle don't support OS X - how much money are they going to loose? I'd say 0. It is *far* more likely that enterprises will change their hardware platform away from the Mac than they suddenly stop writing Java. Why would oracle spend time and money on a port when all they need to do is wait; Java users have to have a supported development environment so they're forced back to Windows / Linux.

Java application haters just don't get it. A huge amount of software development targets Java, only a tiny fraction of it is used by consumers. Those guys need computers, they liked OS X because it's got good java support, UNIX, and a nice GUI. There's been a huge uptick in macbook toting IT people, who then were a great ready audience for writing iPhone apps because they had the kit. They don't care what the app store rules are, they don't even care if Java is an OS component or a separate download; or even who supplies it - just the assurance that it is there and supported. An no, some shonky Soylatte build on X11 isn't going to cut it.

Also, you may be surprised what consumer stuff IS java. Flash builder; eclipse IDE. Moneydance personal finance; Java. PS3 media server; Java. Many language development environments are eclipse, and therefore java, based.

No JVM = No OS X = No enterprise apple sales.

I develop enterprise applications, and have quite a few colleagues that use apple hardware. it's not because it's Java capable, as a matter of fact it's only because their great pieces of hardware. Most run Windows either in emulation, via boot camp, or connect to remote windows servers. From my experience Java is in decline. Most new enterprise development is being done in .Net on Windows, and most applications are being developed to run on centrally controlled windows machines in a Citrix type environment or being run from a browser. IF anything I would think this shows that Apples penetration in the server market is in decline.

 

[mags631]

That argument is moot on OSX as Java as a whole is made "deprecated" by Apple. So sure you can make a JVM for OSX in the hope that people will go against Apple's deprecation and use it and secondly also hope that Steve will continue to let you side-load the JVM on Macs for long - that just doesn't make logical sense though.

Of course it doesn't make sense -- that's why Apple just updated the Java control panel to show all VMs, including non-Apple VMs, and look, it has a "Vendor" column. Apple is clearly looking to push Java regardless of its source off of its platform...

 

[Stella]

I don't see how the Oracle lawsuite affects Apple in any. Apple had licensed to build a certified Java VM, in the same way has IBM has.

Well both of the following more then likely lead to the decision:

Oracle sues Google over Android and Java
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20013546-265.html

Oracle, IBM Commit to Open-Source Java Development
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2370637,00.asp

LOL - Apple never really had any penetration in the server market.

Java is still in the top three most language in demand, in a lot of cases #1.

I develop enterprise applications, and have quite a few colleagues that use apple hardware. it's not because it's Java capable, as a matter of fact it's only because their great pieces of hardware. Most run Windows either in emulation, via boot camp, or connect to remote windows servers. From my experience Java is in decline. Most new enterprise development is being done in .Net on Windows, and most applications are being developed to run on centrally controlled windows machines in a Citrix type environment or being run from a browser. IF anything I would think this shows that Apples penetration in the server market is in decline.

 

[parapup]

Of course it doesn't make sense -- that's why Apple just updated the Java control panel to show all VMs, including non-Apple VMs, and look, it has a "Vendor" column. Apple is clearly looking to push Java regardless of its source off of its platform...

Java always had a Vendor field in the properties - many vendors ship JVMs for their own platform since long - HP, IBM, Sun, BEA etc. That doesn't mean squat though in this context.

 

[mdatwood]

What I find funny is that there are people here saying that Microsoft Windows is now a better platform for coding Java.
But the fact is that Windows' version of the JRE is still to this day made by Oracle, so why should the Mac OS version be different?
Oracle has being reorganizing all Java project, in order to have a better control on its future as a platform. This isn't different.

Windows is now probably the best first class system for developing Java. BTW, Gossling points out that many vendors make their own versions of Java and that Windows and Linux are the exceptions.

It simply isn't true that “Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms”. IBM supplies Java for IBM's platforms, HP for HP's, even Azul systems does the JVM for their systems (admittedly, these all start with code from Snorcle - but then, so does Apple). In the beginning, Microsoft provided Java for Windows - but Sun took over when Microsoft violated their contract and made Java code written on Windows unable to run on other systems. Sun also provided the VM for Linux because there was no one else to do it. In all the other cases, the platform owners wanted to do the ports themselves so that they could put a lot of energy into it, and because they knew the platforms better than anyone else.

 

[dnenciu]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

One thing about this thread that bothers me is the often raised business angle. I'm going to be perfectly blunt here but if your business has been tied to Java for years you need to look at your management team. It is simply a poor choice in my mind to choose Java over standardized languages. Frankly this is a good example of why.

Yeah tell me more about those "standardized" languages?

I guess most fortune 500 companies have bad management teams for using Java for their enterprise platforms.

 

[mags631]

Java always had a Vendor field in the properties - many vendors ship JVMs for their own platform since long - HP, IBM, Sun, BEA etc. That doesn't mean squat though in this context.

It does because the claim to which I responded is that Apple is trying to get rid of all of Java from its platform. Also, note that what is new with this release is:

Third Party JVM Support and Locations

Java Preferences now shows all discovered JVMs in a single list in the General tab. This list shows the name, vendor, architecture, and full version of each JVM (8146434). It also coalesces multiple versions of the same major platform version from the same vendor and architecture into the same line. Clicking on the version at the end of the line shows a popup menu which chooses between these multiple versions.

 

[mags631]

Yeah tell me more about those "standardized" languages?

I guess most fortune 500 companies how bad management teams for using Java for their enterprise platforms.

Yes, there are some brilliant teams out there... but there is also a lot of bad. Has nothing to do with their choice of Java.

 

[-rhys-]

So the release note states that java should not be relied on being included in future versions of OS X - ie., Lion - that's a year from now.

I'm the dev lead for a team that has a floor full of mac pro's. Being an investment bank we are horribly backwards and the sys admins have only just moved to Java 6 as a deployment platform. And our experience is that Snow leopard is years ahead of linux for software development.

Whatever the outcome, I can't see this affecting us for at least 3-4 years.

 

[parapup]

It does because the claim to which I responded is that Apple is trying to get rid of all of Java from its platform. Also, note that what is new with this release is:

I have read that - what I am saying is that without an announcement from Apple as to who the 3rd party JVM vendor would be and when would we see a release - that whole "we will show you all JVMs" thing doesn't make any difference. It's not like 3rd parties have a strong reason to build and maintain a Mac JVM to assume that it will happen.

Quoting Gosling -

None the less, there were recurring discussions about having Sun or the community shoulder the burden. There were lots of obstacles. One was that a lot of Apple's web sites (MobileMe, iTunes, the app store) were Java apps and they were nervous about not doing the QA themselves. The point became somewhat moot because Apple ended up using a lot of Sun hardware (yes!). But the biggest obstacle was their use of secret APIs. Yes, OS X has piles of secret APIs. Just like the ones that Microsoft had that contributed to their antitrust problems. The big area (that I'm aware of) where these are used is in graphics rendering.

 

[dnenciu]

Yes, there are some brilliant teams out there... but there is also a lot of bad. Has nothing to do with their choice of Java.

Actually my post was meant to be sarcastic

As saying that choosing java on the enterprise means you have a bad management team shows ignorance on the technology.

 

[kdarling]

Java is the most popular programming language based on number of programmers, job openings, etc., and it's extra handy to know with the popularity of Blackberry and Android devices.

(Note in the chart below that C is now running neck and neck with Java. Personally, I'm amazed at Perl.)

 

[Gasu E.]

Java is now under Steve's good buddy, Larry Ellison; so I suspect the issue of Oracle taking over Apple's source code may have already been discussed.

 

[mags631]

Java is the most popular programming language based on number of programmers, job openings, etc., and it's extra handy to know with the popularity of Blackberry and Android devices.

(Note in the chart below that C is now running neck and neck with Java. Personally, I'm amazed at Perl.)

Yes, Java is important. Personally, I'll throw a little party once VB dies the horrible death that it should. It enabled a generation of programmers to write crappy, unmaintainable code. On that note, go Python!

 

[usw]

Where's Common Lisp, and Scheme (err Racket) ?

 

[Phil A.]

Personally, I'll throw a little party once VB dies the horrible death that it should. It enabled a generation of programmers to write crappy, unmaintainable code.

Amen to that

I was quite surprised to see how low C# is on that chart - after 10 years its penetration isn't really increasing at any speed. I was also amused by the sudden spike in Objective-C around the middle of 2009: I wonder what could have caused that

I don't really have an axe to grind for any one language (I make my money programming in C, C++, C#, Java, Objective-C, and PHP when pushed (plus VB when forced on pain of torture!)), but I do find Java programming to be very enjoyable

 

[racketeer71]

What I find funny is that there are people here saying that Microsoft Windows is now a better platform for coding Java.
But the fact is that Windows' version of the JRE is still to this day made by Oracle, so why should the Mac OS version be different?

Because Microsoft doesn't actively try to shut down all non-.NET development in their OS. Perhaps MS wanted to, but can't due to their market position (antitrust etc).

I can imagine Oracle is contemplating whether it's worthwhile to make a JVM for OS X. Jobs obviously believe everybody should use obj-c and only make Apple-universe applications. So perhaps Apple will "by accident" repeatedly make changes that breaks whatever JVM Oracle builds for OS X.

That would result in Java-developers from time to time being left out in the cold - and Jobs would hope this would make the developers "do the right thing" and join Apple in obj-c.

So Oracle will wind up playing catch-up with Jobs, and I don't think they would like to enter that game at all. That's just not how Oracle rolls.

 

[PatrickCocoa]

You got that right

Steve obviously doesn't care about the enterprise market if he is willing to play these secret games that work with consumers, but scare corporate types to death.

You got that right. Steve wants to produce beautiful products and "make a dent in the universe". He does not care if he loses your company's business.

After Steve is gone, the next guy in charge at Appl will see your situation and say "OMG! We're leaving $1.5 billion in revenue on the table! Let's set up an enterprise support team and publish our roadmap!". Until then, forget it.

 

[BC2009]

Since when?

Didn't Steve Jobs say that 20% of all PC's sold last quarter were Macs at the Back-to-the-Mac event?

So I guess that just means 20% of new PC's are Macs, but does not mean Macs are 20% of the overall desktop space....

Sorry if I got it mixed up.

 

[mags631]

Because Microsoft doesn't actively try to shut down all non-.NET development in their OS. Perhaps MS wanted to, but can't due to their market position (antitrust etc).

Apple is not shutting down all non-Cocoa development.

I can imagine Oracle is contemplating whether it's worthwhile to make a JVM for OS X. Jobs obviously believe everybody should use obj-c and only make Apple-universe applications. So perhaps Apple will "by accident" repeatedly make changes that breaks whatever JVM Oracle builds for OS X.

That would result in Java-developers from time to time being left out in the cold - and Jobs would hope this would make the developers "do the right thing" and join Apple in obj-c.

So the next logical step is to kill Javascript for the yet unannounced Objective-C-Script. And, it will only run on black cubes with greyscale monitors.

So Oracle will wind up playing catch-up with Jobs, and I don't think they would like to enter that game at all. That's just not how Oracle rolls.

Yes, brilliant. Cue Steve Job's maniacal laughter from the tower of doom being constructed now on Infinite Loop.

 

[PatrickCocoa]

Buy This

Java Devs are going to keep working in Java and all they will do is say buy to OSX.

If I understand your point, the above should read "say bye to OSX".

 

[BC2009]

You got that right. Steve wants to produce beautiful products and "make a dent in the universe". He does not care if he loses your company's business.

After Steve is gone, the next guy in charge at Appl will see your situation and say "OMG! We're leaving $1.5 billion in revenue on the table! Let's set up an enterprise support team and publish our roadmap!". Until then, forget it.

You're right... Steve Jobs is not concerned at all with Apple's profitability. Since he's been back at Apple all they have done is make cool gadgets, but where is the money to show for it?

 

[racketeer71]

Didn't Steve Jobs say that 20% of all PC's sold last quarter were Macs at the Back-to-the-Mac event?

So I guess that just means 20% of new PC's are Macs, but does not mean Macs are 20% of the overall desktop space....

And the 20% figure only makes sense, if you take the American view of the world: