Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation

[wolfenkraft]

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up. - Martin Niemöller

Really? Get out of here. People gave Olbermann crap for using that in a vastly more serious setting. Did you think before you wrote that? At all? I'm guessing you just copied and pasted it since you got the umlaut.

Overuse leads to desensitization. You need to learn that what you say matters and has an effect.

 

[iMinnesotan]

Big mistake

I just came from a technical conference where every presenter was using a MacBook and there were lots of MacBooks among the attendees. It's not that anyone is deploying software to run on OS X, instead it gives Java developers the best of both worlds for Java development and personal computing. I am confident that these developers will turn to Linux as soon as they run out of options. Think impact on sales to Java developers.

BTW, it's not necessarily all bad if Macs are a bit behind on the JVM. How many companies out there take years before they adopt the next major release? At my company its about two years.

 

[eeyoredragon]

Dude, you keep saying that you're taking your ball and going home. Pouting. So go home already. Why are you still here? To try to create some drama?

You're right. He should throw away all his mac hardware and never post on any mac related sites again two days after a ridiculously poor announcement from Apple's CEO. That's logical.

 

[omenatarhuri]

This is a big positive if/when Oracle steps up.

 

[sicn]

I don't understand the sarcasm. What java innovation has happened in the last 3-4 years that you're missing? I can't think of any application, tool, or service that doesn't run on your typical java 5 installation.

I guess you are not a developer if you haven't seen any innovation since the inception of Java 5. Modern application servers that support Java Enterprise Edition 6 don't run on Java 5, just as an example. All the changes to graphical rendering, JavaFX, the G1 soft real-time Garbage Collector, Compressed OOPS, Escape Analysis, simplifications for multithreaded software development.

To be completely honest, I wouldn't care if Apple removed their own JDK from Mac OS X because I know that OpenJDK 7 will run fine on BSD-like systems (i.e. OSX)... however, it is more and more clear that Apple wants a totally locked down system. Wouldn't it be ideal if Apple got 30% for every single piece of software provided on any of Apples devices? That he doesn't like Flash or Java is purely an ego thing (and his ego probably got hurt when Nextstep bombed). Now he has a chance to shove the hideous Objective C, the sub-par Xcode development IDE and the age old NextStep library down our throats and as long as it was for short-lived burp and fart apps it was all fun and games, but now......

I don't say that Java is the best thing ever, but it is at least true to it's cause: Write once, run anywhere (which, of course, is something that Apple and MS want dead and gone).

 

[John.B]

I believe I have as much right to be here as you do. I find the discussion interesting. Find someone else to be rude to.

Stay as long as you like. I'm merely pointing out that your actions are inconsistent with your words. You're still here, you're not busy wiping your hard drive and installing Linux like you claim to be. So it's all pure drama.

Can we get you a crying towel?

 

[tripjammer]

Let oracle be a hero and just develop it and push it out...Apple does not need to do everything..

 

[dbendixen]

Java? We don't need no--nevermind.

I can't remember the last time I used Java when there was another option available. Case in point--LogMeIn remoting software has a browser plugin that delivers far superior performance than the Java applet you must use if you don't install the plugin. Ok, so yes, I do remember the last time I used Java--but it wasn't a good experience!

 

[wolfenkraft]

Stay as long as you like. I'm merely pointing out that your actions are inconsistent with your words. You're still here, you're not busy wiping your hard drive and installing Linux like you claim to be. So it's all pure drama.

Can we get you a crying towel?

Everything he has said is reasonable and valid. No one is stopping you from using things other than java. Unfortunately, despite what people in this and the sister thread seem to think, enterprise does run on java. Java isn't losing ground to any other language. I see .net shops migrating TO java and no one takes Ruby, Python, PHP seriously. The webapps I develop for handle well over a million users a day. And that's only the web apps, the server side java apps that aren't client facing or are without a web view handle trillions of transactions a day. Ruby, PHP, and Python can't do that.

 

[usw]

Stay as long as you like. I'm merely pointing out that your actions are inconsistent with your words. You're still here, you're not busy wiping your hard drive and installing Linux like you claim to be. So it's all pure drama.

Can we get you a crying towel?

he's not alone, I don't feel like crying, I feel I'm being screwed by this company I used to support.

 

[gudin]

Oracle makes money on other platforms because other platforms have a presence in the server market. Read the thread.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Get a clue. Oracle is somehow going to stop making money if developers use Macs? Wait. . . they already are. Apple may not sell a lot of big-iron servers, but a LOT of server development is done on macs, and a LOT of money is made there. I work in a company that is a big Oracle client, and our development is almost all done on Macs. Seriously dude. Panic doesn't become you (or the rest of the people on the thread who you imagine have some gospel truth on the subject based entirely on supposition and conspiracy theories).

Because they obviously didn't. Are you suggesting they did talk to Oracle and they know that Oracle will take over the maintenance of Java but they're keeping it a secret? WTF?

Dude. Relax. This came up because of a release note in a Java update YESTERDAY. Not an official press release. If you'd bother reading the article or the one line email that prompted it, you'd see this came up because Steve J. essentially confirmed it. Makes more sense for the JVM/JDK to be done the same was as it is on other platforms.

Apple RELIES on Java in house. They are not going to suddenly remove it and make it unusable any time soon, nor did they even imply they would.

 

[racketeer71]

Can we get you a crying towel?

Grow up.

 

[pmjoe]

Somewhere in one of these threads was a guy whose company has 200 Macs they use for Java development.

Sometime soon computer science departments at universities will have to make computer recommendations for next year's incoming freshmen.

I don't see anything in Jobs' statement that could possibly lead these people to buying Macs for their next computer purchase.

 

[Clive At Five]

To all those saying "who cares" and other "Java sucks"-related comments, I too was skeptical until I started programming recently. Java has made some amazing strides in recent years.

Java's selling point has always been its platform-independence, which makes it an incredible choice for developers. Oracle would be foolish to let Java for Mac die as Java's appeal would likely die too.

It's just too bad it doesn't run on *all* platforms. I'm looking at you, iOS

-Clive

 

[pmjoe]

Dude. Relax. This came up because of a release note in a Java update YESTERDAY. Not an official press release. If you'd bother reading the article or the one line email that prompted it, you'd see this came up because Steve J. essentially confirmed it.

Sorry, but it is no accidental coincidence that Apple released a Java update that officially deprecated Java, and then proceeded to announce an App Store at the same time which would not allow deprecated APIs specifically naming Java.

 

[dcorban]

I know this is the internet and all, but the level of drama here blows my mind.

Apple isn't forcing everyone to uninstall the current version of Java. Apple isn't deleting it from existence. The current version of Java will be available for years to come.

Based on my personal experience with Java app requirements, the current Java 1.6 should be sufficient for the next 10 years.

 

[eeyoredragon]

The guy shows up all pouty and whiney, says he is wiping OSX off his hard drive to install Linux, and his next computer won't be a Mac. All on obviously incomplete information. So don't just hang around and whine about what you say you are going to do, go do it already! Don't be a drama queen.

He's been anything but "pouty and whiny".

A lot of us will be moving to another OS if there's no viable JVM on OS X. People aren't saying they're doing it today, because we don't have enough information to make that decision (which is really what a lot of us are annoyed about). Maybe you're into making fanatical snap decisions like that, but the rest of us don't really care to toss our laptops and wipe our hard drives based on an off the cuff statement by a CEO known for being somewhat of a prick about these sorts of things.

While there may be an exodus in the future if things clear up and we find Oracle has no plans to pick this up, in the meantime, there's no reason to make any decisions right now for Java devs (except to not buy a new mac at this moment).

 

[alent1234]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Get a clue. Oracle is somehow going to stop making money if developers use Macs? Wait. . . they already are. Apple may not sell a lot of big-iron servers, but a LOT of server development is done on macs, and a LOT of money is made there. I work in a company that is a big Oracle client, and our development is almost all done on Macs. Seriously dude. Panic doesn't become you (or the rest of the people on the thread who you imagine have some gospel truth on the subject based entirely on supposition and conspiracy theories).



Dude. Relax. This came up because of a release note in a Java update YESTERDAY. Not an official press release. If you'd bother reading the article or the one line email that prompted it, you'd see this came up because Steve J. essentially confirmed it. Makes more sense for the JVM/JDK to be done the same was as it is on other platforms.

Apple RELIES on Java in house. They are not going to suddenly remove it and make it unusable any time soon, nor did they even imply they would.

if this was planned with Oracle then they should have a free JRE download for OS X on their site now. Months ago Apple should have given Oracle the OS X source code or enough low level documentation to allow Oracle to develop their own version.

instead this seems like Apple will play it's old games and give people documentation the day they announce it to the public or give them barely enough access to make performance horrid like they did with Flash

 

[mdatwood]

Somewhere in one of these threads was a guy whose company has 200 Macs they use for Java development.

Sometime soon computer science departments at universities will have to make computer recommendations for next year's incoming freshmen.

I don't see anything in Jobs' statement that could possibly lead these people to buying Macs for their next computer purchase.

This is a great point. Companies plan out years ahead for HW purchases. Apple doing this without any other explanation shows their typical arrogance, but this time it may actually bite them financially. I talked to many friends yesterday about how their companies are scrapping plans for mac hardware because of the announcement. Now, while I think that's a bit of an overreaction at this point, I can't really blame them given how Apple went about it by giving no plan or explanation for Java support going forward.

People in this thread need to remember that Java is huge in schools for teaching purposes and is huge in enterprise for backend development.

 

[macsmurf]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Get a clue. Oracle is somehow going to stop making money if developers use Macs? Wait. . . they already are. Apple may not sell a lot of big-iron servers, but a LOT of server development is done on macs, and a LOT of money is made there. I work in a company that is a big Oracle client, and our development is almost all done on Macs. Seriously dude. Panic doesn't become you (or the rest of the people on the thread who you imagine have some gospel truth on the subject based entirely on supposition and conspiracy theories).

I'm not panicking. Really What I'm doing is arguing that Oracle have no reason to support Java on OS X. I'll be happy to respond to any counter-argument but this "Go away" "Stop Whining" "Stop panicking" is frankly getting really tiresome and it's nothing but childish noise. You have to decide if you want to debate the issue or not, because I refuse to stoop down to this level (at least in this thread ).

If Oracle is to support Java on OS X it will cost them money. If Oracle spend money on something they would like to see a profit. What is the profit argument here? Snow Leopard will be usable for Java development for at least a couple of years. When it comes to upgrading, companies will simply switch to another OS. If it comes down to a choice between Java or OS X in the enterprise, companies will choose Java.

Dude. Relax. This came up because of a release note in a Java update YESTERDAY. Not an official press release. If you'd bother reading the article or the one line email that prompted it, you'd see this came up because Steve J. essentially confirmed it. Makes more sense for the JVM/JDK to be done the same was as it is on other platforms.

That is precisely my point. A company with real ambitions of getting a foothold in the enterprise world would not just deprecate Java and then stay silent about it. The (reasonable, I think) conclusion is that Apple is not serious about the enterprise. They would rather spend their ressources on the consumer market and if companies decides to adopt OS X because of an increased presence in this market that's fine by Apple. If not, that's fine by Apple too.

Apple RELIES on Java in house. They are not going to suddenly remove it and make it unusable any time soon, nor did they even imply they would.

Apple is saying that they may not support Java in OS X Lion. Companies will take that as a signal to migrate to another platform. What Apple decides to do in-house is not my concern.

 

[torbjoern]

As a Java developer who owns a Mac, I am highly disappointed. I really don't want to have to move to Windows or Linux for my desktop. I hope there are plans in the works with Apple/Oracle.

Linux is actually not so bad. Believe me.

 

[Matt-M]

But there are a lot of us who are freaking out about the "dropping" of iWeb.

I know how to write HTML/CSS, dabble in DOM, and know Wordpress and Drupal darn well… but iWeb is something I use often, for "down and dirty" websites that look decent, and WORK on most computers. Sure, the source isn't pretty, but it's very, very weird that iWeb would go the way of the Dodo.

And a very bad decision imho.

Some people just don't pay attention.

iLife ’11 also includes iWeb and iDVD for creating instant websites or your own straight-to-DVD classic.
http://www.apple.com/ilife/iweb/

 

[pmjoe]

I know this is the internet and all, but the level of drama here blows my mind.

Apple isn't forcing everyone to uninstall the current version of Java. Apple isn't deleting it from existence. The current version of Java will be available for years to come.

Apple has made it clear that their Java will not be supported on OS X 10.7, which is due this coming summer. Why in the world would I invest in a Mac today for Java development, if I knew Apple's OS won't support it in ~8 months.

Based on my personal experience with Java app requirements, the current Java 1.6 should be sufficient for the next 10 years.

Java 6 is nearly 4 years old already, and this has been by far the longest time between major point releases in Java history.

 

[mags631]

Sorry, but it is no accidental coincidence that Apple released a Java update that officially deprecated Java, and then proceeded to announce an App Store at the same time which would not allow deprecated APIs specifically naming Java.

Apple deprecated, not deleted, its version of Java. Also in the same release note, it notes that the Java control panel now indicates the JVM vendor. Hmmm.

Which one is more coincidental?

 

[Mal]

I find this whole thing hilarious. For years, I've been seeing posts about how it's disgusting that Apple can't keep up with the Java releases and how they shouldn't even be releasing Java updates themselves, and should let Sun/Oracle do it.

Now they do just that, and they're getting flamed by people who can't even be bothered to consider that perhaps Apple knew they couldn't do Java right and that it'd be better on the Mac, not gone or lower quality, if Oracle takes over and does it. Make no mistake, Oracle will step in, and probably has already agreed to do so, but there will be no official announcement until they have the next version ready for the Mac.

To all those whining about businesses not being sure and needing to know where things are going, any business that relies on such tiny little threads of information to determine major business purchases or whether they should retain the platform they have been working on is not going to survive anyways. Businesses that buy machines now will have the current version of Java (well, whatever version Mac OS X has now), and will continue to have that for the life of the machine, even if it's "dropped" from the Mac from now until eternity. They've got 3-4 years before it matters to them, so I doubt any business owner worth his salt is looking at this and thinking that they need to drop Apple because they posted a developer note saying they weren't going to do their own version of Java any more. Any good business owner is going to wait for real information to base their decisions on.

All this is is people who want an excuse to whine.

jW