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FW is not the feature differentiating them. THere is screen size, resolution, Expresscard slot, and - although I'm not sure if this is still the case - kb backlighting differentiating them too. So to pick one of those, and make believe that FW is "the" differentiator is really reading something in there that isn't there.

To make matters worse, for some of us, the 15" and 17" MacBooks don't even have FW. Well, they may have the port, but because of the cheapo chipset used, it's as useful as a speaker cabinet without a driver.

Edit: They have also removed firewire (in essense a hub) from the 24" Cinema Display.
Going on pretending they firewire is still massively present is rather optimistic, bordering on blind naivity.

OK, I may have put FireWire in the high seat, but it´s a strong feature they dropped from the MB, and I don´t think it´s due to their lack of interest in the technology. It´s either marketing issue or simply an engineering one (space), not an evidence of Apple trying to do another floppy move, like many suggest.

I´m not too concerned about the 24". If it was removed altogether from the latest iMac and/or the mini on the other hand…
 
OK, I may have put FireWire in the high seat, but it´s a strong feature they dropped from the MB, and I don´t think it´s due to their lack of interest in the technology. It´s either marketing issue or simply an engineering one (space), not an evidence of Apple trying to do another floppy move, like many suggest.
To some of us, they have factually already done the "floppy move", forcing us off the platform because unlike the real, historical "floppy move", there is nothing to replace it.
Oh, yeah, that's right, there is ONE portable product which still has firewire (hopefully still with the TI chipset): The Whitebook. But why on earth should I go back in time and buy old technology. Even with my "oldish" 2.33GHZ MacBook Pro that would be a huge step down and step backwards. Come to think of it, they propably came out around the same time. Also, the Whitebook has no expresscard slot :eek:

I´m not too concerned about the 24". If it was removed altogether from the latest iMac and/or the mini on the other hand…
I am not concerned either on that screen in particular –*I will never buy an that display or any Cinema Display –*I mentioned the lack of firewire on it to show you a tendency. ACD's used to all have firewire, now the new generation (okay, they only have one size of the new ones) have none. This was as close to a dock people would get.

You may not put much emphasis on the screen not having fw, but the reality is, that it is yet another product where FW was nixed. And when you add them trying to nix FW800 on the first MBP, then introducing the inferiour agere chipset, then removing FW from the MBs, AND making everything glossy.

No, no matter if they have a change of heart and decides to reintroduce firewire - and with a TI chipset - when will they next make it impossible for me to use their products? Of course it's a business decision, but as history shows with regards to firewire, their business decisions have too big an impact on my work that I'm willing to let them decide what I can and cannot do. My work involves a bit more planning and, well, work, than deciding which port I should connect my external hard drive to.
(I'm not angry with you, I'm p...ed at Apple's fickle "business decisions")

Btw, and completely off-topic:

You're using accents instead of apostrophes. Accents are used over letters, such as "Renée" whereas apostrophes are used to denote possession or contractions such as "isn't". – I'm not saying that to put you down, but because I happen to have an accent in my real-life name, so it's pretty much in neon :)
 
Hehe, thanks for pointing that out. This looks better doesn't it? It's an awkward alt+@ on my keyboard…

I do agree with you, though it seems you have a higher quality need than myself. I use FW as my main interface for external storage, no audio recordings, so I would never experience the difference I don't think. But I see where you're coming from, I guess you too are put in the direction of the 17" (TI chipset I believe) to cater for your 'portable' needs.

It's a shame, really. A notebook range so close to perfection, ruined by saving a few pennies on important details.
 
Hehe, thanks for pointing that out. This looks better doesn't it? It's an awkward alt+@ on my keyboard…
Much, much better :)
I don't get why you have to use the alt+@ to make an apostrophe. My apostrophe is on the @-key as it is (Danish kb), so I simply press that key alone. What keyboard-language do you have?

[EDIT]Oh, I just realised you said the key itself were screwed, and you therefore had trouble with it. Nvm. the language-question, lol[/EDIT]


I do agree with you, though it seems you have a higher quality need than myself. I use FW as my main interface for external storage, no audio recordings, so I would never experience the difference I don't think. But I see where you're coming from, I guess you too are put in the direction of the 17" (TI chipset I believe) to cater for your 'portable' needs.
Except, 17" aren't really portable. I'll never want something that big to carry around. It's also too heavy (not for a lappie that size, though). In fact, I have gone the opposite direction and have bought (although not arrived yet) a 12.1 inch computer with a 1440x900-resolution. The same as my 15" MBP.

Also, Apple had decided for a while that all of them should be glossy, no matter size. Say I fell for this recent change of heart, when will they yet again make some odd business decision which will leave me in a dark alley with no way out other than to scale the walls. Or windows, as it were.



It's a shame, really. A notebook range so close to perfection, ruined by saving a few pennies on important details.
Frankly, I find it far from perfect. I love "simple" and industrial design. But it has come to a point were it's form over function. I prefer function over form. Therefore I have bought the Thinkpad X200s, which in it's own right is more beautiful than any Mac. It's an excellent design and just the thing. The MacBooks, to me, seems to have a close kinship with Alien's design, only they're catering to ahigher market clientel. There was a time when Apple laptops were on par with Thinkpads. You didn't chose them because they "look great" but because they actually were great. Today they're on par with with other cheapo models out there. The only difference being: Apples aren't cheap and they are really good at marketing these things to a certain niche with more money than brains*


*No rule without exceptions, though. But even reading these boards will prove my point: There are numerous switchers who spout nonsense which may have been true a decade ago, numerous people who have no clue what they do, but bought their mac because they were told "it's better", and then spend all their time regurgitating that, thinking that by repeating it, it will once again be true. I call them "The iPod Crowd", and if I'm feeling like I'm only talking about the most recent switchers, it's "The iPhone Crowd" – the latter will eat even more shyte than the former. :p
 
Much, much better :)
I don't get why you have to use the alt+@ to make an apostrophe. My apostrophe is on the @-key as it is (Danish kb), so I simply press that key alone. What keyboard-language do you have?

Norwegian, which I would assume is pretty similar to the Danish layout. The @ key alone gives me @ (surprise), shift+ * and alt+ '.


Except, 17" aren't really portable. I'll never want something that big to carry around. It's also too heavy (not for a lappie that size, though). In fact, I have gone the opposite direction and have bought (although not arrived yet) a 12.1 inch computer with a 1440x900-resolution. The same as my 15" MBP.

Hence the 'portable'. I'm in the same situation, the only Mac notebook that fulfills my hardware needs is the 17". It hardly suits my daily 35km commute by bike. I would love a true 12" PB replacement with a hi-res screen. They were great and had every feature I now miss in the MacBook.

Also, Apple had decided for a while that all of them should be glossy, no matter size. Say I fell for this recent change of heart, when will they yet again make some odd business decision which will leave me in a dark alley with no way out other than to scale the walls. Or windows, as it were.


I'm not prepared to jump ship just yet, but the all glossy policy is disturbing. And proven by the 17" an option they easily could offer throughout. It looks much better with a body coloured bezel too, I think. The glossy iPhone look doesn't sit too well with the rest, they actually look better closed.

Frankly, I find it far from perfect. I love "simple" and industrial design. But it has come to a point were it's form over function. I prefer function over form. Therefore I have bought the Thinkpad X200s, which in it's own right is more beautiful than any Mac. It's an excellent design and just the thing. The MacBooks, to me, seems to have a close kinship with Alien's design, only they're catering to ahigher market clientel. There was a time when Apple laptops were on par with Thinkpads. You didn't chose them because they "look great" but because they actually were great. Today they're on par with with other cheapo models out there. The only difference being: Apples aren't cheap and they are really good at marketing these things to a certain niche with more money than brains*

Generally, I think in terms of form the unibodies beat the prior models. But unlike the old models the unibodies have off-putting qualities; that all glass screen, and the black bezel. Perhaps the keys, even.

Other than that it's obviously the other hardware issues discussed in this thread.

I would imagine it's an easy fix, though. It´s not like they need a re-design, just some attention to important details.
 
Is that on OSX or Windows?

Some people have claimed that the USB performance on some Apple systems is weak, compared to booting Windows on the same system.

For disk transfers, I usually see that 1394 is about 10% faster than USB 2. (A disk that reads 32 MB/sec on USB will read about 35 MB/sec on 1394. These are dual-interface drives, so the disk is identical.)
Sorry in my delay in answering -- I simply missed your post. :eek:

When I did my speed tests, I used a couple of external HDs (2.5 and 3.5) that had both FW and USB interfaces. I tested on both Mac and PC. I tested on 100GB plus movement of data. Granted my equipment wasn't the latest and greatest. I did my testing over a year ago and things do change.

One of these days, I may give it another shot with some newer equipment. Gut feeling for daily use of external HDs, is that the new data won't be much different than what I found out before. Although I expect USB speed to have picked up a little bit but still not as fast as FW for sustained large file transfers.
 
Tosser, if you look at the big picture (popularity of the MB, raw speed no longer being the product separator it once was, the importance FW plays in a/v editing, Apple's explanation that consumers don't buy/use FW based cameras anymore yet the inclusion of FW in the rest of the revamped consumer line, Apple killing the 'too popular' 12" PB a few years ago, etc.,) I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that a primary motivation for Apple to remove FW from the new MBs is to put more separation between the MB and the MBP. Why you are so vehemently resistant to this idea I have no idea.


Lethal
 
There is NO new Mac that suits my needs. The 17 inch comes the closest (But it is HUGE) I think I will buy a last gen 15 inch MBP if I can find one.
 
Tosser, if you look at the big picture (popularity of the MB, raw speed no longer being the product separator it once was, the importance FW plays in a/v editing, Apple's explanation that consumers don't buy/use FW based cameras anymore yet the inclusion of FW in the rest of the revamped consumer line, Apple killing the 'too popular' 12" PB a few years ago, etc.,) I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that a primary motivation for Apple to remove FW from the new MBs is to put more separation between the MB and the MBP. Why you are so vehemently resistant to this idea I have no idea.
I am not vehemently against it, I'm saying that one should not make-believe it's the only separator – especially not considering that separator is non-existent for people who work with audio.
It's an argument much like Volvo saying: We want to separate our C30 from our X70 station wagons. Most normal consumers don't buy the hybrid version (they don't build any hybrid cars, this is just an example), thus we will only use hybrid engines on our big offroadish X70 station wagons. That way we will somehow prove that hybrid engines are a non-seller and only people with space and money for a big car buys them.

This thinking, of course, plays excellently into how their reasoning was with regards to the glossy screens (sigh), but it also shows the Erasmus thinking in that argument: That just because one thing is different between models, that doesn't mean that that is the only thing, and it certainly doesn't mean that that is the only thing consumers decide from ("after"?).

You and I both know that most consumers don't care one way or the other with regards to firewire. And most of the consumers who do like firewire only knows that FW800 is a faster connection than their USB2-connection.
IF they needed something to separate "pro" products (with Apple, that has become a joke) from non-pro products, perhaps they should have focused on something consumers know just a wee bit about. Hell, according to the Big Salesman (Jobs, that is), there really aren't many things that use FW, and now, with the useless Agere chipset, even less of the people needing firewire will use that port on Apple laptops, resulting in even less buying an Apple laptop with Firewire (why would they/we?).
In other words, it's an incorrect comparison, a logical fallacy, much like the Erasmus Montanus argument.

I do agree with you, though, that CPU GHz aren't the separator it used to be.
To me, that means, that this time around, I'm going from a 15" 2.33GHz Core2Duo to a 12.1" 1.86GHz LV Core2Duo. And you know what? It will still be a huge stepup:
1) Much better build quality
2) Much better keyboard (both better than the one I have, but even more so than the new Sony-copy keyboards which are all style, less function).
3)Lighter weight (much lighter – about half with the smallest weight)
4)Battery size can differ, depending what I want to do. Do I want to go ultralight, or ultralong? Take the battery that matches.
5) Same screen real estate (resolution), yet better looking letters et al (from smaller individual pixels)
6) Three year warranty as standard. It's Bring-it-in-yourself, but I will upgrade to three year warranty where they pick it up from home or work.
7) 3 USB slots – something I would have to buy a 17" luggable MacBook to get.
8) No Firewire, but a WORKING expresscard slot where I don't have to install and boot into another os to make the FW-expresscard adaptor work
9)More than ten hours work on a 9-cell. Some report 12-13hours.
10) No illuminated Logo which advertises "Steal me" everywhere you work.
11) Did I mention better build quality? If not, let me do it again, and add that not only under the hood, even the casing itself is more rugged – contrary to what most from the iPod Crowd would have you believe.
12) Matte screen as standard and not that lowest-common-denominator piece of crappola glassy over glossy that Apple is selling to people who like oversaturated colours and only use their for school and at home in their dorm.
13)Much less working on, well, workarounds, to make it play nice with servers at work, not to mention Dalet (it's a broadcast workflow-suite).
14) The computer will come from a company who actually makes their own motherboards. How is that for a fresh new attitude?
15) Modem. Yes, I don't need to carry a USB dongle for this.
16) plays nice with Outlook/OWA.
17) 5-in-1 card reader. This is just a bonus. But it's great having the option.
18) Much less gimmicks.
18a) No touchpad. No, nothing. It has a trackpoint. No more tennis elbow inducing two finger scrolling and what not. Of course I could have bought something which had both, but I got lucky that the model I wanted excluded something like that.

Those are just things off the top of my head – most of the above categories have full explanations and very practical reasons why the X200s is a much better choice for me than buying into what has become The iPod/iPhone Company".

Now, as usual, some idjit from the iPhone Crowd will now go "All that is fine and well, but you won't have OS X on that thing". My reply, of course: No, thankfully, I will be working in an OS that actually works and not just pretend to work yet forcing me to spend my time focusing on workarounds. Unfortunately some of us have real needs and not just a need to pose with what amounts to a super sized netbook. Hell, several netbooks even have a working expresscard slot.
 
Tosser, if you look at the big picture (popularity of the MB, raw speed no longer being the product separator it once was, the importance FW plays in a/v editing, Apple's explanation that consumers don't buy/use FW based cameras anymore yet the inclusion of FW in the rest of the revamped consumer line, Apple killing the 'too popular' 12" PB a few years ago, etc.,) I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that a primary motivation for Apple to remove FW from the new MBs is to put more separation between the MB and the MBP. Why you are so vehemently resistant to this idea I have no idea.


Lethal

While I think your point is valid. I think predetermining what is Pro and want is Consumer simply based on footprint size is ludicrous. If you were really trying to make a separation, you would make all 3 sizes available to both, but spec them accordingly. Its just absurd to think prosumers wouldn't possibly desire anything smaller than a 15 inch laptop, and equally absurd to think consumers should only want the 13 inch. Screen size is a personal preference and really shouldn't be a factor in determining whether something is pro or consumer. Would you agree?
 
While I think your point is valid. I think predetermining what is Pro and want is Consumer simply based on footprint size is ludicrous. If you were really trying to make a separation, you would make all 3 sizes available to both, but spec them accordingly. Its just absurd to think prosumers wouldn't possibly desire anything smaller than a 15 inch laptop, and equally absurd to think consumers should only want the 13 inch. Do you agree?

+1 Absolutely. I'll pay more for FW on a 13".
 
Its just absurd to think prosumers wouldn't possibly desire anything smaller than a 15 inch laptop, and equally absurd to think consumers should only want the 13 inch. Screen size is a personal preference and really shouldn't be a factor in determining whether something is pro or consumer. Would you agree?

Yes. I went with the MB because size is the most important factor to me, but I'd really prefer a 13" MBP and I'd pay for it. I expect that Apple couldn't find an appropriate price point for a 13" MBP though.
 
I am not vehemently against it, I'm saying that one should not make-believe it's the only separator – especially not considering that separator is non-existent for people who work with audio.
I never said that it was the only separator.

Its just absurd to think prosumers wouldn't possibly desire anything smaller than a 15 inch laptop, and equally absurd to think consumers should only want the 13 inch. Screen size is a personal preference and really shouldn't be a factor in determining whether something is pro or consumer. Would you agree?
Apple had a 12" PB. People loved it. Apple apparently thought people loved it too much so they killed it. I think Apple was seeing the MB becoming the 'new' 12" PB so they unnecessarily crippled it.


Lethal
 
it's a trick

I personalyy believe that absense of firewire in new aluminium is pushing people to buy new white macbook which is nearly same potencial. they have to sell old design when it is already created.

Firewire comes when white macbooks will be past.
 
I personalyy believe that absense of firewire in new aluminium is pushing people to buy new white macbook which is nearly same potencial. they have to sell old design when it is already created.

Firewire comes when white macbooks will be past.

Interesting... I hope this is true.
 
I think they just wanted to ditch the whole target-drive aspect of hooking up one Mac to another via FW. Too many security issues. Only way to do that was kill the firewire. I could be way off the mark, but it has crossed my mind so many times I finally decided to post it!

Anyway losing the firewire port ticks me off because I have found that process very convenient among my powerbooks. I went with a refurb blackjack when I decided to get a Macbook...
 
I personalyy believe that absense of firewire in new aluminium is pushing people to buy new white macbook which is nearly same potencial. they have to sell old design when it is already created.

Firewire comes when white macbooks will be past.

If they were just clearing inventory I don't think they would have upgraded the CPU and graphics on the whitebook, which they did recently.

I think they just wanted to ditch the whole target-drive aspect of hooking up one Mac to another via FW. Too many security issues. Only way to do that was kill the firewire. I could be way off the mark, but it has crossed my mind so many times I finally decided to post it!

What security issues do you mean? And they haven't killed Firewire since it's still on every Mac except two.
 
If they were just clearing inventory I don't think they would have upgraded the CPU and graphics on the whitebook, which they did recently.

If they were just clearing inventory, they wouldn't have given the October WhiteBook the HDD/Superdrive bump, either. I think the WhiteBook is here to stay until the costs for manufacturing the UniBooks go down.
 
/snip/
What security issues do you mean? And they haven't killed Firewire since it's still on every Mac except two.

Pick up your dad's powerbook, easily access entire HD as target. No muss, no fuss, no permissions required.

The two macs it's not on include the newer macbook which is their apparent template for ordinary laptops going forward.
 
I think they just wanted to ditch the whole target-drive aspect of hooking up one Mac to another via FW. Too many security issues. Only way to do that was kill the firewire. I could be way off the mark, but it has crossed my mind so many times I finally decided to post it!

Hadn't thought of that... you're right, there are certain security issues. I wonder if there's a way to address this simply while keeping firewire.

I think if you used FileVault, you would gain more security, but then you'll slow everything down... I think.

Overall, I'm extremely irritated about the absence of FW in the most portable macs in production. REALLY IRRITATED. :mad:
 
I think they just wanted to ditch the whole target-drive aspect of hooking up one Mac to another via FW. Too many security issues. Only way to do that was kill the firewire. I could be way off the mark, but it has crossed my mind so many times I finally decided to post it!

Anyway losing the firewire port ticks me off because I have found that process very convenient among my powerbooks. I went with a refurb blackjack when I decided to get a Macbook...

If that were the reason, they could have crippled it. That would require a firmware update, but not much else. You don't see Target Disk Mode on firewire equipped windows PCs, afaik.

If that were the reason, why should "pros" (in the mac-arena) be less secure?
If that were the reason, why put fw800 on the lunchbox - an easily "baggable" piece of hardware?

No, the reality is, that with fw or no fw, if you have physical access to a given computer and the data itself is not encrypted, it's not hard gaining access to it.

With that said, Target Disk Mode does have it's pros and cons. Most pros. For the cons, encrypt your porn :p

Edit: To be certain about my statement that PC's don't do Target Disk Mode, I checked – it's true, they don't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Disk_Mode
 
If that were the reason, they could have crippled it. That would require a firmware update, but not much else. You don't see Target Disk Mode on firewire equipped windows PCs, afaik.

If that were the reason, why should "pros" (in the mac-arena) be less secure?
If that were the reason, why put fw800 on the lunchbox - an easily "baggable" piece of hardware?

No, the reality is, that with fw or no fw, if you have physical access to a given computer and the data itself is not encrypted, it's not hard gaining access to it.

With that said, Target Disk Mode does have it's pros and cons. Most pros. For the cons, encrypt your porn :p

Edit: To be certain about my statement that PC's don't do Target Disk Mode, I checked – it's true, they don't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Disk_Mode

I used target disk mode yesterday when fixing a friend's mac...

Right, encrypt your important stuff. Keep firewire across the line. I'll be happy.
 
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