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Apple DOES make serious mistakes and does misjudge the market. And when they mess up they are remarkably slow to accept the mistake and evenmslower to correct it.
If they fix it it will be in a year or two.

I think that this is a side effect of the "be where the puck is going to be" Apple philosophy.

The problem with this paradigm is that consumers (and especially in the current economy) aren't about to go buy a new Camcorder every 18 months and so forth, so Apple's problem is not in as much as future anticipation as it is in a failing to "Stay the Course" with robust legacy support until something clearly superior becomes available.

For example, for my next laptop, there's simply no way in Hades that I'd buy the current Unibody MacBook, due to its lack of FW. Now we roll the dice: do I go upscale to the MBP or downscale to the plastic MB?

The real answer is neither: Apple lost the sale entirely.
Why? Because there actually were more options available.


People get all obsessed with CPU speed. 10% increase gets lots of attention. Yet many people are willing to accept a 50% reduction in speed to access external drives. Apple should have had some high speed access, either fw or esata.

Agreed - its yet another manifestation of the old MHz myth, where the consumer desire to oversimplify to more easiliy compare products makes a choice to ignore non-equal factors because the comparison would otherwise become a "Too Hard".

Plus, the technical reality is that while eSATA does offer great transfer rates, it isn't quite all that its cracked up to be -- they've only just releatively recently finally beaten down their adoption barrier of customer confusion that was incurred due to their initial lack of a standard plug interface (External SATA is not eSATA)...and while eSATA seems to look good for this instant, the bigger picture is that their interface protocol lacks inclusion of power, and their Standards Body is about to go around the same "what's the standard?" Do-Loop a second time as they now are trying to figure out how to revise the eSATA interface to include power. Their challenge is that there's already a couple of (incompatible to each other) eSATA+Power plug implimentations out on the market already, but since they're patented, it effectively makes adoption as an open standard nearly impossible. Golly, wonderful.

Moving back to FW, the generic problem with Firewire right now is IMO in the details of the controller chips and peripherals (in the context of eSATA competition). For going up to FW1600 / FW3200 ... I suspect that a sufficiently affordable & reliable controller chip is part of the problem.

I also suspect that Apple may not necessarily really want to put a FW800 port on the side of the box when they know that a hardware change (controller chip) is required to boost up the 1600/3200 speeds: Pros who have been working with FW for years will understand this, but not consumers.... however! ...the problem with this logic is that USB2 --> USB3 is going to incur the same customer confusion.

Apple caught flak for changing the supplier (away from Ti) and rightfully so: it might have been cheaper for Apple, but it was an inferior solution which has caused customer dissatisfaction. One strategy to sidestep a criticism of a feature's poor performance is to simply eliminate the feature.

IMO, an "everything wireless" paradigm is coming (where the puck is going to be), but again, we're left in the lurch for legacy sytems support until that technology becomes pragmatically real. Maybe its closer than we think it is, but there's an adoption risk to that as well.

In the meantime, perhaps hitting up Apple's email address to solicit developer-related information about FireWire technologies might be a helpful way to remind Apple's leadership that there's still a lot of consumer interest in FW too; perhaps consider trying: firewire@apple.com.


-hh
 
Keep the focus. We want FireWire more than we want cheaper Macs. Right??

Ah, hell no! I only use FW for an old dvd-writer I got and that's because I'm not buying a new one as long as that one works... It was never part of my incentive to buy a MBP, screen real estate (balanced with portability) was however! :p

If Apple continues to dictate to Pros what they do or don't need, Pros will continue to migrate slowly, but surely back to PC's - especially with the imminent release of the brilliant Windows 7. And note well: when the Pros migrate, so do eventually a great market share of users.

It will be important for Apple, Inc. to avoid corporate hubris. If they don't, they will surely be humiliated by the fickle market that will turn away from them just as quickly as it turned towards them.

Corporate hubris once brought Apple down. It may do so once again. In any case, No... Apple will probably not put FW back on the MacBooks and ... No, Apple will never admit that it made a mistake.

I agree. Know thy history, mac-user! Perhaps the pendulum have reached it's apex? :p
 
I see his point, but not everyone uses HDD camcorders. Mainly because the AVCHD codec sucks, and also tape is way cheaper. Getting rid of firewire is almost the same as getting rid of USB. What about all of the external hard drives or audio interfaces that use firewire? What about camcorders (thousands) that use miniDV tapes with FIREWIRE output? Off the top of my head I can think of several other devices that use it. I thought Mac's were all about editing home videos and whatnot? To abandon it without everything switching to firewire 800 (or take it out completely) it is not a good idea IMO. In fact, very few devices even use 800. If it's that big of a deal just make it optional. 800 is just not integrated into enough devices. USB does rule right now so I can see why they would do this. But to not have an option seems like a bad idea.

One the other end, they did leave FW on the more powerful laptops, which are more than likely the computers doing the video editing anyway. So I can see both sides. :rolleyes:
 
I see his point, but not everyone uses HDD camcorders. Mainly because the AVCHD codec sucks, and also tape is way cheaper. Getting rid of firewire is almost the same as getting rid of USB. What about all of the external hard drives or audio interfaces that use firewire? What about camcorders (thousands) that use miniDV tapes with FIREWIRE output? Off the top of my head I can think of several other devices that use it. I thought Mac's were all about editing home videos and whatnot? To abandon it without everything switching to firewire 800 (or take it out completely) it is not a good idea IMO. In fact, very few devices even use 800. If it's that big of a deal just make it optional. 800 is just not integrated into enough devices. USB does rule right now so I can see why they would do this. But to not have an option seems like a bad idea.

One the other end, they did leave FW on the more powerful laptops, which are more than likely the computers doing the video editing anyway. So I can see both sides. :rolleyes:


I've never been able to justify a Pro MacBook and I've made 1 hour+ training videos for people (not every day of course, but it's easy with FireWire), even in the iBook days.

AVCHD sucks big time, but Apple wants people to output their videos to Mobile Me, so the worst possible camcorder is all they're going to cater for in the home user market. and don't get me started about iMovie making HD movies since 2005 and still no Blu-ray support… yes, Sony Vaios had Blu-ray burners in 2005 :mad:
 
I've never been able to justify a Pro MacBook and I've made 1 hour+ training videos for people (not every day of course, but it's easy with FireWire), even in the iBook days.

AVCHD sucks big time, but Apple wants people to output their videos to Mobile Me, so the worst possible camcorder is all they're going to cater for in the home user market. and don't get me started about iMovie making HD movies since 2005 and still no Blu-ray support… yes, Sony Vaios had Blu-ray burners in 2005 :mad:

2005! that's funny! I think everyone else in the Mac world is ready for the update too ( http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/burn.html ) Let's be honest, it NEEDS to be done yesterday.

>ibook - My friend was running Final cut pro on his 4 year old ibook just fine, but it was far from seamless. It can be done, and they need to keep firewire until there is another solution besides pushing everyone to stupid AVCHD (which I will NEVER do). Maybe they should focus more on doing things that people need, instead of developing more crap that we don't? i.e. a new, oversimplified ipod shuffle?
 
2005! that's funny! I think everyone else in the Mac world is ready for the update too ( http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/titanium/burn.html ) Let's be honest, it NEEDS to be done yesterday.

>ibook - My friend was running Final cut pro on his 4 year old ibook just fine, but it was far from seamless. It can be done, and they need to keep firewire until there is another solution besides pushing everyone to stupid AVCHD (which I will NEVER do). Maybe they should focus more on doing things that people need, instead of developing more crap that we don't? i.e. a new, oversimplified ipod shuffle?

Right you are and I agree!

Which is why they're gradually but rapidly so, making me loose interest. They're starting to make designs without any real function... :eek:
 
Rumor...

There is a rumor that the MacBook unibody model will be re-branded as a MacBook Pro and that the white (polycarbonate plastic) MacBook will remain the sole MacBook model, i.e. all the aluminum Macs will now be Pro models.

If this is true, then perhaps they will bring back the FW port to all of the aluminum sheathed Mac notebooks. *Wishful thinking perhaps?
 
This is hilarious. This thread has been going on forever.


Side note: It's also funny that the white MacBooks are currently faster than the Unibody and is also has FireWire and $300 cheaper.
 
Several of my friends prefer the Umb but hate it doesnt have firewire so they dont buy it.....

I wonder if they have lost alot of sales by not having it.
 
I see his point, but not everyone uses HDD camcorders. Mainly because the AVCHD codec sucks, and also tape is way cheaper. Getting rid of firewire is almost the same as getting rid of USB. What about all of the external hard drives or audio interfaces that use firewire? What about camcorders (thousands) that use miniDV tapes with FIREWIRE output? Off the top of my head I can think of several other devices that use it. I thought Mac's were all about editing home videos and whatnot?

Absolutely - I have 4 fw hard drives, a fw DVD burner, a fw CF card reader, a fw flatbed scanner, and two fw camcorders. For comparison, I have exactly two USB devices; a mouse, and a thumb drive.

I *need* that fw port. The cost of adding to a notebook is trivial. And since the future fw standards (fw1600 and fw3200) are going utilize the same connector as fw800, that should be the standard connector. It's backwards compatible with all fw400 devices too.

One the other end, they did leave FW on the more powerful laptops, which are more than likely the computers doing the video editing anyway. So I can see both sides. :rolleyes:
No! Every Mac includes iLife, which includes iMovie! How is anyone going to use iMovie on a Macbook if they have one of the millions of fw camcorders that have been sold??? FW has been the video interface standard on consumer (and pro) camcorders for a decade now. There are so many of these devices out there, they are alienating their user base by omitting this critical port. Plus, movie editing is no longer something for only the professionals. Everyone these days is editing videos and uploading to them to facebook, for example.

Several of my friends prefer the Umb but hate it doesnt have firewire so they dont buy it.....

I wonder if they have lost alot of sales by not having it.
I have a 2006 MBP 2.33 Ghz. It has both a fw800 and a fw400 port. Very useful for me since I can put the hard drives on the fw800 port, and everything else on the fw400 port and get maximum speed out of all my devices. Apple lost a sale from me by removing the fw port from the new Macbook. I'm also hesitant to upgrade to a new MBP due to cost, but also because I'll lose the fw400 port. Talk about paying more to get less. :mad:

This is hilarious. This thread has been going on forever. .
I'm sure Apple has people that read these forums. Hopefully they will take notice, and remedy this embarrassing omission in the next model of Macbook.
 
I want serial and parallel ports back!
If they are 2-4 times faster that the ports on the new uber expensive laptop, then yes, add them back in.

SATA is a "serial" protocol.

Every 10% CPU speed bump is a big deal, but slow down external hard drive access by 50-75% and thats ok? Why would anyone want to spend new money to access external hard drives at 1/2 to 1/4 the old speed?

The only reason I can see is that people don't realize how slow USB is for accessing external hard drives. Marketing wins. 480mbit sounds great, until you hang a mess of devices off of it and can only achieve 15-20MB/sec. Old firewire is 400mbit but consistently achieves very close to 40MB/sec. Still slower than some hard drives. FW800 can achieve very close to 80MB/sec. Currently FW800 is the ONLY port available on Mac which allows external hard drives to run at maximum speed without being a bottleneck.
 
I'm sure Apple has people that read these forums. Hopefully they will take notice, and remedy this embarrassing omission in the next model of Macbook.

No offense but please tell me you're joking, right? Apple listening to their customers in regard to how to design their products...

Seriously, man, snap out of it. That is hilarious! :D
 
so... i still think Steve is lying in his response. It's illogical at best. So I'm curious if anybody has come up with the *real* reason why there's no FW port on the unibodies.
 
so... i still think Steve is lying in his response. It's illogical at best. So I'm curious if anybody has come up with the *real* reason why there's no FW port on the unibodies.
Seems pretty clear. They had limited room, most new devices are USB so they thought they could nix it and nobody would complain. If you really want FW, get a Macbook Pro.
Except that its silly to remove the only reliably fast port on the machine.

I'd rather see ethernet go. I haven't plugged into ethernet in years. A USB-ethernet adapter would be fine.
 
Never. Losing FireWire was bad... but losing Ethernet would be miserable.
Seriously? Do you use ethernet? Where, work or home? What speed, 10mbit/100mbit/gigabit? You do realize that 802.11n is out with supposed throughput of up to 160mbit/sec.
Given that most internet access to the home is 7mbit, maybe 10 if you're lucky, 160mbit seems like alot. You'd have to get gigabit ethernet to improve on that.

To put another way... you can get a USB-ethernet adapter that handles 10 or 100mbit ethernet with no loss in speed.
But there is no way you can get speeds as high as FW800 without a FW800 port.

So losing ethernet maybe inconvenient, requiring an adapter, but you didn't lose any performance.
Whereas losing the firewire port prevents you from using many devices and greatly reduces speed that you can talk to devices. And there is no workaround. You have absolutely no alternative to fix the missing firewire port, other than not buying a aluminum Macbook.
 
so... i still think Steve is lying in his response. It's illogical at best. So I'm curious if anybody has come up with the *real* reason why there's no FW port on the unibodies.

Product differentiation with the MBP.

Seriously? Do you use ethernet? Where, work or home? What speed, 10mbit/100mbit/gigabit? You do realize that 802.11n is out with supposed throughput of up to 160mbit/sec.

I use ethernet at work, all day every work day. Ethernet is much more convenient than wireless because wireless requires authenticating with a password and VPN to get into the company's network. Ethernet is just plug and go. I regret losing Firewire, but losing ethernet would make the MB a non-starter.
 
Seriously? Do you use ethernet? Where, work or home? What speed, 10mbit/100mbit/gigabit? You do realize that 802.11n is out with supposed throughput of up to 160mbit/sec.
Given that most internet access to the home is 7mbit, maybe 10 if you're lucky, 160mbit seems like alot. You'd have to get gigabit ethernet to improve on that.

To put another way... you can get a USB-ethernet adapter that handles 10 or 100mbit ethernet with no loss in speed.
But there is no way you can get speeds as high as FW800 without a FW800 port.

So losing ethernet maybe inconvenient, requiring an adapter, but you didn't lose any performance.
Whereas losing the firewire port prevents you from using many devices and greatly reduces speed that you can talk to devices. And there is no workaround. You have absolutely no alternative to fix the missing firewire port, other than not buying a aluminum Macbook.

:rolleyes: Ethernet owns 802.11n in speed so much its not even funny.

I can't get more than 7 MB/sec (56 Mbit/sec) out of my N network (Airport Extreme N, only 1 wall in between computers), but with Ethernet I easily get 80 MB/sec (640 Mbit/sec) when transferring data.

Computer networks are not only about Internet access, you know?
 
:rolleyes: Ethernet owns 802.11n in speed so much its not even funny.

I can't get more than 7 MB/sec (56 Mbit/sec) out of my N network (Airport Extreme N, only 1 wall in between computers), but with Ethernet I easily get 80 MB/sec (640 Mbit/sec) when transferring data.

Computer networks are not only about Internet access, you know?

True. Keep them both. Let's axe the optical drive! Free up plenty of space, perhaps even room for a second hard drive?!

How sweet would an Intel SSD be as the boot drive. Giddy up!!:D:D
 
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