Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[Sulley Muntari]

It isn't a pattern. There are unrelated reasons for not having FireWire on these products:
iPod: needs to be PC-compatible.
MBA: designed to be a mostly wireless platform, and razor-thin design forced dropping most ports anyway.
aluminum MB: force more customers to higher-margin top-of-the-line systems.

I thought it was said here that all PC's have firewire and they are cheaper so why would they need to take it and being as firewire is superior to USB as is repeated on this thread, why didn't Apple go with the superior technology?

Yes they dropped most of the ports from the NBA but yet they still included USB which is more popular, the future is moving towards USB, you guys need to recognize that.

With the MB I agree with you, most companies want you to buy their higher margin stuff, so I'm not surprised they needed to find a way to differentiate more, but if firewire is so much important to you, you can purchase the other computers Apple offers it on including the cheaper 999 macbook.

No, it was simply because the target the MBA was intended for doesn't really see the importance of it. That's slightly different; the MB though is another story whether you think the firewire should have been dropped or not, it's just an unfair comparison to put the two on the same table.

They dropped firewire because they are moving away from it, they dropped it from the ipod, the MBA didn't come with it, the new MB don't have it, the MB Pro only has one firewire port (Firewire 800) and they also did to push more customers to their higher margin products, which is what more corportations do, it's all about the money dude.

 

[Dark Fiber]

More feedback

I have just sent the following to http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html:
"I have just visited [my local] Applestore to discuss the purchase of a new MacBook. On raising the problem of the lack of Firewire connectivity, I was told, in effect, to buy a new video camera and new external drives. Target Disk Mode was said to be "hardly ever used." When I said I could buy a Windows laptop with the connectivity needed, the response was "but you won't, will you?"
It may be true that I, as a Mac user for over two decades, will struggle to stay with the platform-however, switchers, both real and potential, have no such loyalty!
It is foolish to ignore the importance of amateur content-creation as a motivator for sales: every young person that sees a white Apple logo glowing on stage at a concert is influenced favourably. Now when they approach a Mac user for advice they must be warned off the MacBook to the MBPro- this will only exacerbate the impression that Macs are overpriced.
Please pass this on to your Marketing people- they must not underestimate the _indirect_ negative effect on sales of this foolish decision."
I cannot overemphasize the importance of complaining to _Apple_, both by feedback and in person at Applestores, for there to be any hope of reversing this stupid omission.

 

[Eidorian]

I had a chance to talk with a Genius in store today and they're missing Target Disk Mode on these new MacBooks. They want a similar solution like it USB if it is possible.

 

[danny_w]

I had a chance to talk with a Genius in store today and they're missing Target Disk Mode on these new MacBooks. They want a similar solution like it USB if it is possible.

Unfortunately nothing similar is possible with USB.

 

[RedBear]

Im guessing you missed when they droppied it on the Macbook Air and we have as much right to be on thiscthread as you.

Except they didn't "drop" it from the MacBook Air. The Air is a niche product that was never designed to be used by anyone who would have anything to do with it FireWire. The iPod was until now the only Apple product that has had FireWire removed, and nobody much cares about that because the main benefit of having FireWire on the iPod was so that you could use it as a bootable backup drive and very few people ever did that. Now that the new Intel Macs can boot from USB drives it's a moot point, and the speed of the internal drive on iPods is slow enough that there is no performance benefit from FireWire versus USB 2.0. So bringing up either the MacBook Air or the iPod is making a pointless comment that has no relevance.

On the other hand, if this is Apple saying that they will no longer support FireWire in "consumer" level Mac models, they will also be removing it from the next generation of iMacs and Mac minis. So bringing up the current generation of iMacs and Mac minis and the leftover white MacBook model is also making a pointless comment. Until we have an actual announcement or new model released from Apple there is no evidence that they are not killing FireWire. There's also no reason to think that they won't, until they say something to the contrary.

Nobody said you didn't have a "right" to be here. We're just wondering why people like you take precious time out of your day to stand in the way of someone else trying to get something they need. Nobody forced you to read this thread, so complaining about all the whining you haven't been forced to read makes no sense. It's like you're doing everything you can to keep us away from a glass of water just because YOU aren't thirsty. Which of course seems very arrogant and egotistical and dare I say "jerk-like" to the rest of us. To us, you are the annoying one that has no point being here. I said "no point", not "no right". What exactly is stopping you from leaving and doing something constructive with your own time?

I submit that you are the one "whining" while we have what is to us a perfectly legitimate complaint. And you are not us, so you have no "right" to be telling us that we do not have a legitimate complaint. From our perspective this may be an event that completely changes our way of life henceforth. Our two choices are to move away from FireWire or move away from Macs. Both choices totally suck. So please forgive us for being upset.

Oh, I forgot the third choice: Spend a boatload more money. Which for some reason people like you think should be no big deal to us merely because we happen to use a particular port. Apparently it's only the USB-only crowd who has limited amounts of money to spend on computers. This assumption is dead wrong and very arrogant and irritating.

 

[Eidorian]

Unfortunately nothing similar is possible with USB.

I didn't want to be the one to tell him that.

 

[cosmonaut23]

RedBear, I couldn't agree with you more.

Why do some folks feel the need to belittle what (it should be obvious by now) is a legitimate and highly relevant complaint for many mac users.

It seems silly to have to point this out, but the reason so many of us get so worked up about these things is that we have quite alot personally invested in "the Mac" as a way of doing things. And i don't just mean cash, although that's certainly true as well. We have knowledge and familiarity and skills and it allows us to do things in our own particular way (whatever that might be) and we *like* it. We don't have the luxury of just switching brands - it's not like buying HP instead of Dell. Changing brand loyalty would be an extremely big deal for a lot of us, and by and large we have few reasons to want to. We just don't like the alternatives. But when something like this happens, that seems so contrary to the interests of so many of us, and to the platform we collectively share, then yes, we get upset.

I hope that goes some way to answer some of the "why are you moaning?" questions, although i suspect they're more about trying to provoke a reaction.

 

[RedBear]

I thought it was said here that all PC's have firewire and they are cheaper so why would they need to take it and being as firewire is superior to USB as is repeated on this thread, why didn't Apple go with the superior technology?

Yes they dropped most of the ports from the NBA but yet they still included USB which is more popular, the future is moving towards USB, you guys need to recognize that.

With the MB I agree with you, most companies want you to buy their higher margin stuff, so I'm not surprised they needed to find a way to differentiate more, but if firewire is so much important to you, you can purchase the other computers Apple offers it on including the cheaper 999 macbook.

They dropped firewire because they are moving away from it, they dropped it from the ipod, the MBA didn't come with it, the new MB don't have it, the MB Pro only has one firewire port (Firewire 800) and they also did to push more customers to their higher margin products, which is what more corportations do, it's all about the money dude.

The fact that they pulled FireWire from the MacBook only proves that they put form ahead of function to the detriment of function. It does not prove that FireWire isn't superior to USB for certain uses like external storage and audio/video content creation.

They needed to include USB in the MBA for people to have access to all the most common peripherals like printers, flash drives, and the external USB optical drive and Ethernet adapter options. Again proves nothing about FireWire since the MBA was not designed for any of us who use FireWire. Total niche product, stop bringing it up.

Stop bringing up the "new" white MacBook also, unless you have evidence that they are aren't just clearing out their inventory of white MacBooks. It's a leftover, it proves nothing about their future intentions for FireWire in consumer hardware. The same goes for the current generation iMac and Mac mini. They prove nothing.

Nobody cares about FireWire in the iPod. They dropped it to reduce manufacturing costs. They didn't "drop" it from the MBA, it was never included. That's different. They removed the FW400 port from the MacBook Pro for the same reason they removed it from the MacBook. They put form over function and it wouldn't fit. But FW800 is backwards compatible with FW400 devices, so nobody cares except those who still don't realize that is is backwards compatible. Which is a surprising number of people.

The MacBook is the first Mac in the last 8 years or so to have FireWire actually REMOVED. The future is not "moving to USB" any more than it has been during the last decade. There are more FireWire devices today than there ever were before. There are also more USB devices. Proves nothing in regard to FireWire. More importantly, even if the future is totally USB, it's the FUTURE. It's not NOW. They call it the future for a reason, because it's not here yet. Things like the floppy drive were always removed years AFTER they were mostly obsolete and AFTER there was a suitable replacement available, not BEFORE. Right now FireWire is still far from obsolete. FireWire products are still being manufactured right this very minute. And there is no suitable replacement available.

This is not the future. This is now. We need FireWire. In the MacBook. If you don't need FireWire or a MacBook you have no reason to be wasting your own time obstructing the rest of us and whining about us raising a legitimate complaint.

 

[Eric S.]

I thought it was said here that all PC's have firewire

Where did you hear that? It is certainly not true in my experience.

Yes they dropped most of the ports from the NBA but yet they still included USB which is more popular,

Not because it's popular but because of the use it has. You need USB for a mouse or printer. The MBA is not designed for people who use FireWire, just like it's not designed for people who rely on ethernet, and you wouldn't claim that Apple is planning to phase out ethernet.

the future is moving towards USB, you guys need to recognize that.

I already said that earlier, but that will be USB 3.0 which is a year away from practical application.

 

[mmzplanet]

This is not the future. This is now. We need FireWire. In the MacBook. If you don't need FireWire or a MacBook you have no reason to be wasting your own time obstructing the rest of us and whining about us raising a legitimate complaint.

Your post is well stated, I will miss having firewire in the MacBook. I have several FW HDDs that I need to use. I want to upgrade, but it will be difficult until I can get some new drive enclosures too or save some more for the MBP.

 

[danny_w]

Nobody cares about FireWire in the iPod. They dropped it to reduce manufacturing costs. They didn't "drop" it from the MBA, it was never included. That's different. They removed the FW400 port from the MacBook Pro for the same reason they removed it from the MacBook. They put form over function and it wouldn't fit. But FW800 is backwards compatible with FW400 devices, so nobody cares except those who still don't realize that is is backwards compatible. Which is a surprising number of people.

Some people are indeed starting to get upset that there is only one FW800 port on the new MBP, not because it is not backward compatible (which it is) but because it is only one port. Even if you wire this to a FW800 hub, if you connect both FW800 and FW400 devices to it the bus will slow down to FW400 speeds. Some video cameras are still FW100, so plugging one of them in would slow the bus down even more, completely negating the advantages of a FW800 RAID on the bus.

 

[Tosser]

Some people are indeed starting to get upset that there is only one FW800 port on the new MBP, not because it is not backward compatible (which it is) but because it is only one port. Even if you wire this to a FW800 hub, if you connect both FW800 and FW400 devices to it the bus will slow down to FW400 speeds. Some video cameras are still FW100, so plugging one of them in would slow the bus down even more, completely negating the advantages of a FW800 RAID on the bus.

Not to mention they reintroduced the crapagere Lucent chipset simultaneously with the nixing of the port.

 

[danny_w]

Not to mention they reintroduced the crapagere Lucent chipset simultaneously with the nixing of the port.

Right, I forgot to mention that.

 

[RedBear]

get the macbook pro. i hear it has firewire.

Feel free to mail us each $700 from your own pocket to pay for the difference. Or you could continue arrogantly assuming that it's acceptable to tell people to spend an extra $700 on a computer just because they happen to use a device with a particular kind of NON-OBSOLETE connection. Of course you're also probably arrogantly assuming that everyone who uses this NON-OBSOLETE connection can easily afford to spend an extra $700 on the computer, merely because they also own one or more devices with this NON-OBSOLETE connection.

FireWire is not even close to becoming obsolete even in the near future. They have no business removing it from the MacBook. Some of us need it, and prefer to use the MacBook or can't afford the MacBook Pro. That really should be more than enough for you, but instead you'll continue wasting your own time whining about our legitimate needs. We pity you that you have nothing better to do with your life.

 

[RedBear]

Some people are indeed starting to get upset that there is only one FW800 port on the new MBP, not because it is not backward compatible (which it is) but because it is only one port. Even if you wire this to a FW800 hub, if you connect both FW800 and FW400 devices to it the bus will slow down to FW400 speeds. Some video cameras are still FW100, so plugging one of them in would slow the bus down even more, completely negating the advantages of a FW800 RAID on the bus.

Are you sure about that? I know USB works like that but my understanding of FireWire indicates that each device will get as much bandwidth as it can handle, or as much guaranteed bandwidth as it requests. That's why FireWire works so much better for devices that need uninterrupted bandwidth, like audio recording hardware. I could be wrong about 400 slowing down 800, but I would like to see someone who actually knows post about this.

I just can't fathom FireWire being as poorly designed as USB.

 

[darkblu]

guys, allow me to bring to your attention that the troll got axed, so don't bother replying to him.

on a asidenote, the petition is at ~14.4K today. signed and co-signed, though i'm not sure apple would listen.

 

[cosmonaut23]

Your post is well stated, I will miss having firewire in the MacBook. I have several FW HDDs that I need to use. I want to upgrade, but it will be difficult until I can get some new drive enclosures too or save some more for the MBP.

Why should you need to get new enclosures? And then to find they're actually slower than the old ones. Oh happy day!

As for USB being the future - i hardly ever use it laptop wise. I've got firewire audio interface / scanner / camcorder / video interface / multiple external hard drives. Yes all firewire. So i just don't want to buy any computer without it. In fact i don't want a MBP with only one port either. Guess it will have to be old gear until / unless they sort this out.

What's so frustrating is that Firewire has given the mac platform an edge for many years now. It's not a substitute for USB, but it can do things USB just can't by virtue of design. Even Intel put it on their high end Mobos! What would be great would be for Apple to move it forward (S3200) and nurture it. The potential is enormous. Conversely, what i think many of us fear is that this is the start of a slow death of firewire, where it first becomes Pro only, and is then gradually left on the sidelines through lack of support. It seems perverse that Apple, having championed this standard, which is still so useful for so much, lack the courage to drive it forward any more.

 

[danny_w]

Are you sure about that? I know USB works like that but my understanding of FireWire indicates that each device will get as much bandwidth as it can handle, or as much guaranteed bandwidth as it requests. That's why FireWire works so much better for devices that need uninterrupted bandwidth, like audio recording hardware. I could be wrong about 400 slowing down 800, but I would like to see someone who actually knows post about this.

I just can't fathom FireWire being as poorly designed as USB.

The problem may actually be more of a bandwidth sharing problem than what I described. However, since all devices would have to effectively share the same connection, they also must all share the bandwidth. If you have a FW100 camera and a FW400 audio interface both going at the same time, a FW800 disk would be blocked for the amount of time required by the slower devices, and would not be able tor each its full potential.

 

[RedBear]

The problem may actually be more of a bandwidth sharing problem than what I described. However, since all devices would have to effectively share the same connection, they also must all share the bandwidth. If you have a FW100 camera and a FW400 audio interface both going at the same time, a FW800 disk would be blocked for the amount of time required by the slower devices, and would not be able tor each its full potential.

Well, yes, but not reaching full potential is not the same as what happens with USB where one USB 1.1 "low speed" device operating at 1.5Mbps mixed with one USB 2.0 Hi-speed device operating at 480Mbps will literally take 50% of the bus bandwidth away from the Hi-speed device despite the low speed device only needing about 1/100th of that amount of bandwidth. That's even if the low speed device isn't transferring any data. As long as it's connected to the bus it's slowing everything else down by a significant amount.

I think FireWire is a lot smarter and the lower speed FireWire devices will only take a small fraction of the available bandwidth in most cases, unless they're being saturated. I don't think the faster device will be "blocked" for a certain amount of time. That's how USB works, not FireWire. USB splits the time into equal size chunks and gives the same size chunk to each device regardless of speed. FireWire dedicates bandwidth by need, so faster devices should get every ounce of bandwidth that isn't actually being used at that moment by other devices. A saturated FW100 device should theoretically only use up 1/8th of the total FW800 bandwidth.

However despite the reading I have done over the years I could still be completely talking out of my posterior orifice here and be totally wrong. I have never actually seen anyone complaining about how mixing FW400 and FW800 devices on their FireWire hub (or daisy-chain) slowed everything down. I've only ever seen that complaint from USB 2.0 hub users. So I don't really think it's something to be worried about.

The other nice thing about the MBP is that it does have an ExpressCard slot and therefore it is possible to add a FW400 card with even two or three ports. That would even be a way to work around the Agere chipset issue, if there are any ExpressCard FireWire adapters that have the TI chipset.

 

[localoid]

... The other nice thing about the MBP is that it does have an ExpressCard slot and therefore it is possible to add a FW400 card with even two or three ports. That would even be a way to work around the Agere chipset issue, if there are any ExpressCard FireWire adapters that have the TI chipset.

There are ExpressCard Firewire cards w/TI chipset, but I have never, ever been able to find one that can provide bus power. I've seen several that actually have FW400 6-pin connectors but unfortunately the 2-pins aren't powered so they can't actually provide bus power.

If you need to do portable audio recording at locations where 120 AC isn't available you'll seek a bus powered solution to power a Firewire audio interface which in turn provides phantom power (48v) that most condenser microphones require.

I don't know exactly why this is... the voltages required for bus power might exceed the power spec for ExpressCards...(?)

 

[danny_w]

Well, yes, but not reaching full potential is not the same as what happens with USB where one USB 1.1 "low speed" device operating at 1.5Mbps mixed with one USB 2.0 Hi-speed device operating at 480Mbps will literally take 50% of the bus bandwidth away from the Hi-speed device despite the low speed device only needing about 1/100th of that amount of bandwidth. That's even if the low speed device isn't transferring any data. As long as it's connected to the bus it's slowing everything else down by a significant amount.

I think FireWire is a lot smarter and the lower speed FireWire devices will only take a small fraction of the available bandwidth in most cases, unless they're being saturated. I don't think the faster device will be "blocked" for a certain amount of time. That's how USB works, not FireWire. USB splits the time into equal size chunks and gives the same size chunk to each device regardless of speed. FireWire dedicates bandwidth by need, so faster devices should get every ounce of bandwidth that isn't actually being used at that moment by other devices. A saturated FW100 device should theoretically only use up 1/8th of the total FW800 bandwidth.

However despite the reading I have done over the years I could still be completely talking out of my posterior orifice here and be totally wrong. I have never actually seen anyone complaining about how mixing FW400 and FW800 devices on their FireWire hub (or daisy-chain) slowed everything down. I've only ever seen that complaint from USB 2.0 hub users. So I don't really think it's something to be worried about.

The other nice thing about the MBP is that it does have an ExpressCard slot and therefore it is possible to add a FW400 card with even two or three ports. That would even be a way to work around the Agere chipset issue, if there are any ExpressCard FireWire adapters that have the TI chipset.

Firewire is definitely better than USB at sharing bandwidth, that is a given. I have not seen any good comparisons myself, but I have seen many questions and uncontrolled tests on this subject; you can find numerous links by Googling for "FW400 FW800 shared" or something similar (and many totally irrelevant ones as well).

 

[quarx]

It seems as if attention to the petition is fading out...

Please, spread the word!

 

[iEdd]

There are ExpressCard Firewire cards w/TI chipset, but I have never, ever been able to find one that can provide bus power. I've seen several that actually have FW400 6-pin connectors but unfortunately the 2-pins aren't powered so they can't actually provide bus power.

That's a real pain. The days where you have to hack to get promised functionality. If you REALLY needed to, you'd have to get a 6pin-6pin FW cable, strip the end and take the two power leads to another 6pin plug. That means the 4 data pins go into your expresscard and the 2 power pins go into the crappy lucent FW chipset.

 

[cosmonaut23]

^ He's right people ^

We need to sign the hell out of that petition -

http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html

We also need to be lodging our irritatingly spot on MacBook feedback in large numbers -

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

They'll thank us in the long run!

 

[Azmordean]

^ He's right people ^

We need to sign the hell out of that petition -

http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html

We also need to be lodging our irritatingly spot on MacBook feedback in large numbers -

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

They'll thank us in the long run!

The problem is, Apple doesn't give a Rat's A** about a petition, or feedback, nor does any for-profit company. The only way to voice your unhappiness is to vote with your dollars. This goes for the Matte issue too. As long as Apple thinks (knows?) its users will not stray no matter what they do, they will free to do whatever they want.

If people start going to Apple stores, and asking about firewire, then when the genius says "you won't actually buy a Windows PC," instead of hanging their head in shame, they actually say "sure I will" and walk out and head for Dell.com - then, and only then, will Apple listen. I love OS X as much as anyone, but the bottom line is Windows is a perfectly functional OS. Not as elegant, but it does most everything it needs to do. And if you hate Windows, Linux is an option. But as long as people feel so chained to OS X that they are willing to pay $700 more for the Pro, or are willing to buy all new USB devices, Apple could care less about the complaints.