Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[RedBear]

That's a real pain. The days where you have to hack to get promised functionality. If you REALLY needed to, you'd have to get a 6pin-6pin FW cable, strip the end and take the two power leads to another 6pin plug. That means the 4 data pins go into your expresscard and the 2 power pins go into the crappy lucent FW chipset.

That's a real pain. The days where you have to hack to get promised functionality. If you REALLY needed to, you'd have to get a 6pin-6pin FW cable, strip the end and take the two power leads to another 6pin plug. That means the 4 data pins go into your expresscard and the 2 power pins go into the crappy lucent FW chipset.

That is a very, very, very, extremely good point. Bus power is very important more useful than the stupid 4-pin i.Link ports we always find on PC notebooks. I have a PCMCIA FireWire adapter and it always seemed to be able to provide bus power. I had no idea that ExpressCard FireWire adapters don't supply enough bus power. That is pretty lame.

But, most workarounds are. It's so much better not to need the workaround in the first place *cough*APPLE!*cough*

 

[Eidorian]

The problem is, Apple doesn't give a Rat's A** about a petition, or feedback, nor does any for-profit company. The only way to voice your unhappiness is to vote with your dollars. This goes for the Matte issue too. As long as Apple thinks (knows?) its users will not stray no matter what they do, they will free to do whatever they want.

If people start going to Apple stores, and asking about firewire, then when the genius says "you won't actually buy a Windows PC," instead of hanging their head in shame, they actually say "sure I will" and walk out and head for Dell.com - then, and only then, will Apple listen. I love OS X as much as anyone, but the bottom line is Windows is a perfectly functional OS. Not as elegant, but it does most everything it needs to do. And if you hate Windows, Linux is an option. But as long as people feel so chained to OS X that they are willing to pay $700 more for the Pro, or are willing to buy all new USB devices, Apple could care less about the complaints.

Well since the Apple Store computers do have internet access you can always hop over to Dell.com with your credit card while in store...

 

[danny_w]

Well since the Apple Store computers do have internet access you can always hop over to Dell.com with your credit card while in store...

Great idea! We should all do that and see how long it takes for them to notice!

 

[squeeks]

Well since the Apple Store computers do have internet access you can always hop over to Dell.com with your credit card while in store...

next time im there im totally setting the home page on all of those computers to dell.com

 

[Nuvi]

OK so here is some data for those who don't understand that FW is superior compared to USB. Its interesting that FW800 beats in some transfers eSATA (3 Gb/s) and in some is very close to it. FW3200 will beat eSATA and USB 3.0 hands down. The following data is from MacWorld's Western Digital My Book Studio Edition (1TB) test.

Copy 1GB file to FireWire 800 - 0:32
Copy 1GB file to FireWire 400 - 0:43
Copy 1GB file to USB 2.0 - 0:51
Copy 1GB file to eSATA - 0:31
Duplicate 1GB file via FireWire 800 - 0:47
Duplicate 1GB file via FireWire 400 - 1:12
Duplicate 1GB file via USB 2.0 - 1:20
Duplicate 1GB file via eSATA - 0:49
Low-Memory Photoshop: FireWire 800 - 1:21
Low-Memory Photoshop: FireWire 400 - 1:31
Low-Memory Photoshop: USB 2.0 - 1:34
Low-Memory Photoshop: eSATA - 1:24

TOTAL:

1. FireWire 800 - 2:40
2. eSATA - 2:44
3. FireWire 400 - 3:26
4. USB 2.0 - 3:55

Scale = Minutes: Seconds

 

[RedBear]

The problem is, Apple doesn't give a Rat's A** about a petition, or feedback, nor does any for-profit company. The only way to voice your unhappiness is to vote with your dollars. This goes for the Matte issue too. As long as Apple thinks (knows?) its users will not stray no matter what they do, they will free to do whatever they want.

If people start going to Apple stores, and asking about firewire, then when the genius says "you won't actually buy a Windows PC," instead of hanging their head in shame, they actually say "sure I will" and walk out and head for Dell.com - then, and only then, will Apple listen. I love OS X as much as anyone, but the bottom line is Windows is a perfectly functional OS. Not as elegant, but it does most everything it needs to do. And if you hate Windows, Linux is an option. But as long as people feel so chained to OS X that they are willing to pay $700 more for the Pro, or are willing to buy all new USB devices, Apple could care less about the complaints.

People are already voting with their dollars, and talking to Geniuses, among other things. Signing the petition can't hurt anything, especially if it actually gets up into the 30,000-50,000 range or beyond. I guarantee someone will eventually notice. So don't be discouraging people from participating. But by all means encourage everyone to submit feedback, visit Apple stores, call Apple support, write actual letters and anything else you can think of that might help. Like posting to every blog and website where they even mention FireWire.

Maybe we can't change anything. But we can sure as hell try. The computing world will suck a lot more if FireWire actually dies out before there is a suitable replacement.

 

[dilbert4life]

I am much more upset about the loss of Target Disk mode then I am over losing the connection to a DV cam.

Agreed. I use TDM quite a bit, considering about 6 of my eMacs don't have DVD drives.

I don't get what the big deal is. If you need Firewire, just buy the white MacBook. It's even cheaper than any other option. Or just buy a USB to Firewire adapter.

Umm, doesn't solve the problem. It isn't like he added another USB port to accomodate this adapter, you still only have two. Also, the data transfer rate on USB 2.0 is still bad.

Eliminating FireWire was a very bad idea.

Agreed.

 

[cosmonaut23]

Maybe we can't change anything. But we can sure as hell try. The computing world will suck a lot more if FireWire actually dies out before there is a suitable replacement.

Agreed. And seeing as Apple has the next-gen Firewire S3200 waiting in the wings, we need to try to persuade them that there's an appetite for it. With that on all their machines, Mac's will retain a technical and creative edge. Without it, they're just fancy looking PC's with a better operating system. If Apple had the courage to roll out S3200 across the board, they would rapidly establish an installed base* of the new standard to stimulate a significant market in third party devices, and at the same time manage to differentiate the platform technically from the PC for the next however many years. Everyone's happy.

 

[cosmonaut23]

* Getting an installed base for blu-ray with the PS3 was how Sony managed to win the HD format war againsd DVD-HD practically no time. Bit of strategy never goes amiss. Or they could just do whatever Intel wants.

 

[localoid]

People are already voting with their dollars, and talking to Geniuses, among other things. Signing the petition can't hurt anything, especially if it actually gets up into the 30,000-50,000 range or beyond. I guarantee someone will eventually notice. So don't be discouraging people from participating. But by all means encourage everyone to submit feedback, visit Apple stores, call Apple support, write actual letters and anything else you can think of that might help. Like posting to every blog and website where they even mention FireWire.

Maybe we can't change anything. But we can sure as hell try. The computing world will suck a lot more if FireWire actually dies out before there is a suitable replacement.

I agree. Let's not discourage people from signing the petition, even if some believe it won't change Apple's mindset.

Huge corporations have reversed decisions before. Coca Cola is a prime example.

In 1985, after 99 years with essentially the same taste, Coca-Cola decided to switch to a new, high-fructose corn syrmp, to make Coke taste sweeter and smoother--more like its arch rival, Pepsi. This historic decision was preceded by a top-secret $4 million survey of 190,000 people, in which the new formula beat the old by 55 percent to 45 percent. What Coca-cola apparently neglected to take into account was that many of the 45 percent who preferred old Coke did so passionately. The 55 percent who voted for new Coke might have been able to live with the old formula, but many on the other side swore that they could not stomach new Coke.

Coca-Cola's announced change provoked outraged protests and panic stockpiling by old-Coke fans. soon, Coca-Cola backed down and brought back old Coke as "Coke Classic."

From: New Coke versus Old Coke (emphasis added)

 

[rijiMacDij]

<sarcasm>Hey everybody, don't waste your time signing the petition because there is a slight chance no one will notice it anyway</sarcasm>

 

[cosmonaut23]

...and let's not forget following the reaction to the mothballing of Firewire 800 on the original MacBook Pro, Apple did actually listen, backtracked and put it back onto the subsequent models. These things are possible...

 

[rijiMacDij]

I can't help being pissed off with Steve on this one, I have spent the last few years singing the praises of FireWire and promoting the Mac at the expense of Dell, HP et cetera, BECAUSE STEVE TOLD ME FIREWIRE CRAPPED ALL OVER USB..... Is he going to make a public statement saying he was wrong and that FireWire is now CRAP? Yeah, right!

 

[rijiMacDij]

Could be time to introduce the 13" MacBook Pro?

 

[cosmonaut23]

Er, when did he say Firewire was crap?

 

[rijiMacDij]

Er, when did he say Firewire was crap?

Sorry for the sarcasm, I love firewire, so does Steve, so do we all.....

He made me look like a jerk for promoting FireWire when he has begun dropping support for it, iPods, MacBooks......< SARCASM STARTS HERE > will he say it is crap now so I wont look so bad < NO MORE SARCASM >

Maybe this will create the delineation required to sell a 13" MacBook Pro...

 

[cosmonaut23]

Sorry for the sarcasm, I love firewire, so does Steve, so do we all.....

He made me look like a jerk for promoting FireWire when he has begun dropping support for it, iPods, MacBooks......< SARCASM STARTS HERE > will he say it is crap now so I wont look so bad < NO MORE SARCASM >

Maybe this will create the delineation required to sell a 13" MacBook Pro...

Yeah, apart from anything else, it's terrible marketing. They're keen to say that these machines are new and improved etc. But they're essentially differentiating the product lines by the inclusion (or not) of firewire. Ergo Firewire is a desirable high-end feature. Ergo, the new MacBook, by Apple's own definition, has been downgraded from the previous model.

Not really very clever.

 

[CyberBob859]

Save face

Yeah, apart from anything else, it's terrible marketing. They're keen to say that these machines are new and improved etc. But they're essentially differentiating the product lines by the inclusion (or not) of firewire. Ergo Firewire is a desirable high-end feature. Ergo, the new MacBook, by Apple's own definition, has been downgraded from the previous model.

Not really very clever.

I think the only hope they have to redeem themselves is the introduction of an intermediate model - a 13" MacBook Pro.

Once the WhiteBook is cleared of inventory, they should just take the current $1299 model and drop the price to the $999 or $1099, take the current high-end MacBook and move it to the $1299 price point, and introduce a 13" MacBook Pro - WITH FIREWIRE - for $1599.

They may do this, because I doubt they're going to sell the WhiteBook forever, and then keep their cheapest "consumer' laptop at $1299.

I still believe that FireWire should be on ALL MacBooks, but this compromise may save face. Who knows, maybe the next announcement might be at MacWorld with the introduction of the 17" MBP model, and (hopefully) a 13" version too (with matte options.)

 

[editguy]

I think the only hope they have to redeem themselves is the introduction of an intermediate model - a 13" MacBook Pro.

Once the WhiteBook is cleared of inventory, they should just take the current $1299 model and drop the price to the $999 or $1099, take the current high-end MacBook and move it to the $1299 price point, and introduce a 13" MacBook Pro - WITH FIREWIRE - for $1599.

They may do this, because I doubt they're going to sell the WhiteBook forever, and then keep their cheapest "consumer' laptop at $1299.

I still believe that FireWire should be on ALL MacBooks, but this compromise may save face. Who knows, maybe the next announcement might be at MacWorld with the introduction of the 17" MBP model, and (hopefully) a 13" version too (with matte options.)

And that's exactly why I don't think there will be a MBP 13". I don't think they're willing to lower the price on the MB's. Or to make a place for a price point on a 13" MBP, since they would have to lower the MB prices. And If they only add firewire, it really doesn't qualify as a "pro". It would also need to have an expresscard and discrete graphics. If they Want to keep me, they're either going too have to do that are put FW back on the new MB's. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath. But I still think it was worth the effort of leaving comments with Apple and signing the petition. And I certainly appreciate the efforts of the person that started the petition. I didn't think after 24 years with Apple I'd be ready to move on, but that's where I am. A little sad, too.

 

[editguy]

Er, when did he say Firewire was crap?

Well, I guess he didn't, but he certainly crapped on it.

 

[eXan]

And that's exactly why I don't think there will be a MBP 13". I don't think they're willing to lower the price on the MB's. Or to make a place for a price point on a 13" MBP, since they would have to lower the MB prices. And If they only add firewire, it really doesn't qualify as a "pro". It would also need to have an expresscard and discrete graphics. If they Want to keep me, they're either going too have to do that are put FW back on the new MB's. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath. But I still think it was worth the effort of leaving comments with Apple and signing the petition. And I certainly appreciate the efforts of the person that started the petition. I didn't think after 24 years with Apple I'd be ready to move on, but that's where I am. A little sad, too.

I think there's a good chance they bring back FW to the MB line if they get enough complaints about its absence. They brought back FW800 in second-gen 15" MBP after all, remember?

 

[Tosser]

I think they will use the same sort of nonsense misuse of statistics they used with the glossy screens: "Most of our users "choose" computers without firewire, thus firewire is not needed. We're removing it from any and all computers to homogenise our line up", totally neglecting that you cannot use statistics like that when there is many much more important things differentiating the different products (such as price, screen size and whatnot).
I'm sure they will pull yet another one of those idiotic stunts, all in effort to supersede MS in business tactics while trying to be like Sony by catering to the lowest common denominator only.

 

[eXan]

I think they will use the same sort of nonsense misuse of statistics they used with the glossy screens: "Most of our users "choose" computers without firewire, thus firewire is not needed. We're removing it from any and all computers to homogenise our line up", totally neglecting that you cannot use statistics like that when there is many much more important things differentiating the different products (such as price, screen size and whatnot).
I'm sure they will pull yet another one of those idiotic stunts, all in effort to supersede MS in business tactics while trying to be like Sony by catering to the lowest common denominator only.

I wonder when will they stop selling notebooks with trackpads since most people don't use them...

 

[quarx]

He made me look like a jerk for promoting FireWire when he has begun dropping support for it, iPods, MacBooks......< SARCASM STARTS HERE > will he say it is crap now so I wont look so bad < NO MORE SARCASM >

Somehow it is feeling like Orwell's "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". What a coincidence...

 

[j26]

Somehow it is feeling like Orwell's "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". What a coincidence...

No - Oceania is at war with Eurasia and has always been at war with Eurasia. How could you get it so misguided? Was it Goldstein who led you astray? Face the telescreen and await ThinkPol




Edit: FWIW the fact that the Firewire thread is now larger than the announcement threads should indicate to anyone the importance of this issue to many people.