Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[cosmonaut23]

I think it would be good to debunk, for once and for all, this idea that Firewire is in any way obsolete.

There are countless examples of the unique uses and general superiority of firewire, throughout this thread and all over the web for that matter. I'd like to add to that by pointing out that IEEE 1394b (FW800) is used in the space shuttle and several next-gen fighter planes. (Although not USB for some odd reason. Hmmm.) It's also to be found on most high end motherboards sold to system builders by the likes of Asus, Gigabyte and Intel. Why exactly would they be wasting their time putting an obsolete connector on a shiny new X48 motherboard? No, exactly - they wouldn't.

I can see that making the transition to the newer FW800 connectors makes sense. (The ports don't blow for one thing). And moving to the new (also backward compatible) FW S3200 makes even more sense. But ditching the standard? Just not good for the Mac, and that's really the bottom line.

 

[cosmonaut23]

May i also commend this, as a bit of excellent reading on this interesting topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394

(Or maybe i'm just a big geek.)

 

[Eric S.]

I think it would be good to debunk, for once and for all, this idea that Firewire is in any way obsolete.

There are countless examples of the unique uses and general superiority of firewire, throughout this thread and all over the web for that matter. ...

Very true, but also probably irrelevant. Whether a technology succeeds in the market is often unrelated to its technical superority; e.g., the 8086 vs. a number of superior 16-bit microprocessors, VHS vs. Betamax, or the Amiga as a personal computer. Relative cost and marketing are forces that generally drive these decisions.

 

[cosmonaut23]

Very true, but also probably irrelevant. Whether a technology succeeds in the market is often unrelated to its technical superority; e.g., the 8086 vs. a number of superior 16-bit microprocessors, VHS vs. Betamax, or the Amiga as a personal computer. Relative cost and marketing are forces that generally drive these decisions.

I completely disagree. For bog-standard PC box builders that would make sense, but this is Apple, who are pains to position Macs as high end and design driven. They are able to charge more for their machines on this basis. By and large customers don't mind paying a bit more, as they feel they're getting something more for it. They don't on the other hand expect Apple to be buffeted by "relative cost and marketing" to the extent that they offer us a new Macbook with a major technical deficiency over the old model, for more money. Over 35% more than the old model if you happen to live in the UK.

 

[Eric S.]

I completely disagree. For bog-standard PC box builders that would make sense, but this is Apple, who are pains to position Macs as high end and design driven. They are able to charge more for their machines on this basis. By and large customers don't mind paying a bit more, as they feel they're getting something more for it. They don't on the other hand expect Apple to be buffeted by "relative cost and marketing" to the extent that they offer us a new Macbook with a major technical deficiency over the old model, for more money. Over 35% more than the old model if you happen to live in the UK.

Apple doesn't exist in a vacuum; the decisions that drive this decision are largely not up to them. Firewire has been pushed by Apple since its inception but it has only received limited acceptance in the personal computer market, even when it offered clear advantages of performance over USB. Firewire may be approaching a market "tipping point" with USB 3.0 on the horizon, where Firewire loses out. If manufacturers of peripheral devices adopt USB 3.0 instead of Firewire 3200, Apple will have no incentive to continue to provide it.

I agree that Firewire still offers technical advantages over USB. But the market momentum may move to USB anyway, because device manufacturers will only have to provide a single interface instead of two. If that happens Apple will drop it too. It remains to be seen.

As to Apple's decision to drop Firewire on the current Macbooks, I continue to maintain that the only reason is the desire to differentiate it from the MB Pro. Steve Jobs' inept excuse that it is technically justified holds no water.

 

[editguy]

David Pogue just released a column bemoaning the loss of Firewire. Apparently Steve was able to convince him that it's just a legacy port and that no camcorders will be tape based within 10 years. Pity. I hope Steve isn't so controlling that he'll kill Firewire off just for hits and giggles, regardless of what the designers or end users have to say about it.

If Jobs said there would be no machines left to play the tapes in ten years, as is quoted in that article, he's either lying to protect his decision or he's an idiot! When DV first came out there were people saying that VHS would be dead within five years. Over a decade later it's still being used (it's especially alive and well in education) And the article also said that no one is buying tape based cameras anymore. What a crock. I guess it just shows how CEO's with a following, like Jobs, can say just about anything about technology without being challenged.

 

[cosmonaut23]

Apple doesn't exist in a vacuum; the decisions that drive this decision are largely not up to them.

OK, for a start, it is totally up to them. I agree with you that they're doing this to differentiate the Macbook Pro, but that's what's so dumb about it. By failing to show confidence and support for what is largely a technology of their making, they are completely undermining it and making it's demise that much more likely. If, on they continue to put it on all their computers, and to go with the new standard too, they help continue the installed base that means others will continue to be interested in it too.

Apple have a huge say in what happens to Firewire. Trouble is, apart from this blithe email response, they've actually said precious little.

 

[Eric S.]

By failing to show confidence and support for what is largely a technology of their making, they are completely undermining it and making it's demise that much more likely.

Well I agree with that. And Jobs' lame public statements haven't helped.

apart from this blithe email response, they've actually said precious little.

If they were honest about it they would look bad, and excuses just make them look stupid. So from their standpoint it's probably best to say as little as possible.

 

[cube]

They exist, but can't be used on Mac OS X

The adapter that exists is not a protocol converter. It can only be used to capture DV video to MPEG, with the consequential loss in quality, and you have to edit the resulting video with their proprietary, dubious software.

You can't access the original footage.

 

[scschulte]

And the backup speed via FW

I am much more upset about the loss of Target Disk mode then I am over losing the connection to a DV cam.

I tested my 2.5 year old MacBook with a LaCie Drive 400 FireWire vs. USB2: Some 4 hours 27 min and 56 seconds for a SuperDuper! BackUp with USB - just 2 hr 38 min and 24 seconds with FW400 - would likely be much faster with FW800.

So yes things like Target Disk Mode and FW BackUp speed as well as Video cameras - all solid reasons for FW - imagine after 2.5 years I've got cash in hand to purchase a MB - want the 13" size and weight - would pay more than the list price if FW was an option - man, offer it for $200 or $400 via the www - but don't say "NO FIREWIRE"- just incredible. I'm writing to Apple several times/week... Steve

 

[scschulte]

I agree - so why not just combine the two?

Apple doesn't exist in a vacuum; the decisions that drive this decision are largely not up to them. Firewire has been pushed by Apple since its inception but it has only received limited acceptance in the personal computer market, even when it offered clear advantages of performance over USB. Firewire may be approaching a market "tipping point" with USB 3.0 on the horizon, where Firewire loses out. If manufacturers of peripheral devices adopt USB 3.0 instead of Firewire 3200, Apple will have no incentive to continue to provide it.

I agree that Firewire still offers technical advantages over USB. But the market momentum may move to USB anyway, because device manufacturers will only have to provide a single interface instead of two. If that happens Apple will drop it too. It remains to be seen.

As to Apple's decision to drop Firewire on the current Macbooks, I continue to maintain that the only reason is the desire to differentiate it from the MB Pro. Steve Jobs' inept excuse that it is technically justified holds no water.

When the MB was basically an iBook; and the MacBook Pro a portable Mac Pro, there were 2 lines of Mac Portables. Not today. So why doesn't Apple give us the MacBook/MacBook Pro lineup and allow us to upgrade as we see fit-- a 15" MBP without FW if that's what you want; a 13" MB with FW and 6 gb RAM and a 320 gb HD - hey, the smaller MB could be priced higher-- for many it has more value, portability... Steve

 

[Eric S.]

why doesn't Apple give us the MacBook/MacBook Pro lineup and allow us to upgrade as we see fit-- a 15" MBP without FW if that's what you want; a 13" MB with FW and 6 gb RAM and a 320 gb HD - hey, the smaller MB could be priced higher-- for many it has more value, portability... Steve

You're forgetting Steve Jobs' mantra: "fewer choices, fewer choices, fewer choices ..."

Apple aims for electronic appliances these days, and is afraid their customers will be confused by the slightest variation in features.

 

[localoid]

A brief history of FireWire, from the article, Firewire Vs. USB: A Simplified Approach, by Gabriel Ikram.

Firewire

Around 1987, in the research labs of Apple, Firewire was born. At the time, its primary use was to transfer data and connect hard drives inside of the early Macintosh computers, and in turn, reduced the complexity of the cabling inside of them. Seeing the potential of this technology to connect external peripherals, Apple took it to the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) in hope of making Firewire into an industry standard. Who is the IEEE, they are a group of electrical and electronics engineers who set standards for telecommunications and computing applications.

In 1995, IEEE christened the name IEEE-1394 High-Performance Serial Bus to Firewire and it immediately hit the big market. Boasting a performance rate of 100-megabytes per second, it easily mopped the floor with any competition and became the best in its class. Knowing the value of Firewire, companies such as Microsoft and Intel soon began to use it.


As jealousy is the main downfall for humans, as greed was for Apple's dominance of the serial data bus ports. In 1998, Apple, knowing their position of superiority over many motherboard manufacturers and owning the primary IP for Firewire, began charging a licensing fee of $1 per port—so if a motherboard had 2 Firewire ports, it would have cost an extra $2 to construct. Although this may not seem like a very large amount of money, the electronic industry runs a specific budget for the amount of money spent on component production. For example, if it takes $5 to produce a motherboard and Intel produces 10,000 of them, then their production costs will end up being $50,000. Now under Apple's licensing fee of $1 per port (lets just say the motherboards include two Firewire ports), the production price will be $7 per motherboard ending with a total production cost of $70,000, a $20,000 difference. See how it adds up?

Once this news hit Intel, they quickly abandoned Firewire, switched to Usb 1.1, and began to work on the prototypes of Usb 2.0. Because of Apple's mistake, Firewire shrunk down to Macintosh systems and select computer companies such as Sony who called Firewire the I-Link. But this doesn't mean that Firewire's popularity decreased. In a way, it increased the sales of Macintosh because many of the hardcore media-editing enthusiasts needed a fast Firewire port to connect their DV camcorder or camera to their computer and so they began to choose Mac over Pc.

Yet, recently, Firewire has begun to emerge back onto pc with their newest technology, Firewire 800. Many motherboard companies such as Gigabyte, Asus, FIC, Abit, and ECS support Firewire800 and more are to come. You can also find a large amount of Firewire 800 motherboards here at Directron by using their "search" function on the top right of their page. Just type in Firewire motherboard and you got it! An important fact that you must understand is that IEEE 1394 and Firewire are different names for the same thing. IEEE- 1394B and Firewire 800 are the also referring to the same port but are faster than their predecessor the plain IEEE-1394 (it really becomes a mouthful to say) and Firewire. The FirewareA only supports 400 mbps/second while the newer Fireware 800 supports transfer rates of up to 800 mbps/second.

 

[vvebsta]

I bet it wasn't even as complicated as we are making it out to be... firewire is a legacy port... everything will be USb BLAH BLAH BLAH... I bet the REAL reason Apple did this is because 2 usb ports side by side looks cosmetically sleeker than a FW and a usb. And THAT pisses me off!!!

 

[coffey7]

The workers in an Apple store where I live were really rude when I told a customer about how the firewire was not on the macbook anymore. Dude, take a chill pill.

 

[RedBear]

Yet, recently, Firewire has begun to emerge back onto pc with their newest technology, Firewire 800. Many motherboard companies such as Gigabyte, Asus, FIC, Abit, and ECS support Firewire800 and more are to come. You can also find a large amount of Firewire 800 motherboards here at Directron by using their "search" function on the top right of their page. Just type in Firewire motherboard and you got it! An important fact that you must understand is that IEEE 1394 and Firewire are different names for the same thing. IEEE- 1394B and Firewire 800 are the also referring to the same port but are faster than their predecessor the plain IEEE-1394 (it really becomes a mouthful to say) and Firewire. The FirewareA only supports 400 mbps/second while the newer Fireware 800 supports transfer rates of up to 800 mbps/second.

Excellent post. As I keep saying over and over again there are more PCs with FireWire ports and more FireWire devices on the market than there ever were in years past. I have seen zero evidence indicating that "the market has decided" that FireWire lost any battle of any sort. It was always the less popular technology compared to the ubiquity of USB, and it still is less common. This isn't some new state of affairs.

In recent years it has even seemed to be slowly growing in popularity, not shrinking. Certainly not dying. That's what makes Apple's decision and all these comments people make about "the writing has been on the wall for years blah blah blah anyone could have seen it blah blah blah" so freakishly bizarre to me. Especially Jobs, out there telling everyone that all new stuff is USB? What the...? It's so wrongheaded that you have to wonder if there isn't a carbon monoxide leak or something at Apple's corporate headquarters. What the hell does ten years from now have to do with today?

The general public can plead a combination of ignorance and stupidity, but Apple has no excuse for thinking this new MacBook would be considered anything less than an abomination. It's really not a Mac as far as I'm concerned. The MacBook Air I can ignore because it's basically just a more powerful iPod Touch with a larger keyboard and screen. But not the MacBook. It's now for all intents and purposes an Apple-manufactured hackintosh. Except I could have a hackintosh with the same lack of Target Disk Mode and much better specs including an ExpressCard slot AND a FireWire port for probably 2/3rds the cost.

How, I ask you? How is it possible for Apple to have been stupid enough to manufacture this product? I just can't figure out how anyone at any level of Apple could have ever thought it was a good idea to do this. It doesn't matter what angle I come at it, I just don't get it. If the new iMacs and Mac minis have no FireWire I will never buy or recommend another Mac. I'll be one of the hackintosh people, still running OS X but saving big wads of cash. Bah!

 

[CrackedButter]

The workers in an Apple store where I live were really rude when I told a customer about how the firewire was not on the macbook anymore. Dude, take a chill pill.

In what way were they rude? Details please.

 

[sushi]

I'm guessing we are very early in the possible retirement cycle of Firewire. Indeed there are still one current MB, the entire MBP line, all of the iMacs, the mini's and all of the Pro's that still have the feature.

By the time it would potentially disappear from the line, there will be almost no cameras that are being sold that use tape storage, and all of the vendors that sell high end audio gear will have USB 2 or USB 3 options.

However, FW can be used for other things than just importing and exporting DV video.

For example:
- Target Disk Mode
- Cloning
- File transfer

I think it would be good to debunk, for once and for all, this idea that Firewire is in any way obsolete.<snip>

Agree.

May i also commend this, as a bit of excellent reading on this interesting topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394

(Or maybe i'm just a big geek.)

Interesting article.

I know that the current FW800 connector is compatible with FW3200 standard.

However, I did not know about FireWire S800T (IEEE 1394c-2006) that can be used with a Cat 5e Ethernet cable.

Speculating, maybe Apple is looking at this option but wanted to see the public reaction first.

How, I ask you? How is it possible for Apple to have been stupid enough to manufacture this product? I just can't figure out how anyone at any level of Apple could have ever thought it was a good idea to do this. It doesn't matter what angle I come at it, I just don't get it.

Agree.

This was a stupid move on Apple's part.

 

[robanga]

If Jobs said there would be no machines left to play the tapes in ten years, as is quoted in that article, he's either lying to protect his decision or he's an idiot! When DV first came out there were people saying that VHS would be dead within five years. Over a decade later it's still being used (it's especially alive and well in education) And the article also said that no one is buying tape based cameras anymore. What a crock. I guess it just shows how CEO's with a following, like Jobs, can say just about anything about technology without being challenged.

Check the sites of Sony and Canon, count up the number of cameras using tape vs. the numbers of cameras using flash or hard disks. What do you think that is going to look like in 2010? how about 2012? 2018?

If anything this is speeding up. I'm not sure I'd call him an idiot.

 

[editguy]

Check the sites of Sony and Canon, count up the number of cameras using tape vs. the numbers of cameras using flash or hard disks. What do you think that is going to look like in 2010? how about 2012? 2018?

If anything this is speeding up. I'm not sure I'd call him an idiot.

I would because there will be machines to play the tapes and very likely companies that offer transfer services to whatever the preferred medium is at that time. Check out the number of prosumer and professional models with firewire. Consider the lifespan of that quality of a camera. There will be DV VTR's being sold to those markets for quite some time to come. But, if he's talking strictly about the consumer market, they may be gone in five years. Many on video forums are wondering what's going on with Apple. There hasn't been anew version of Final Cut Studio in over a year and a half. The iPhone has taken over their focus. That's fine if that's what they want to do with their business. But, as a professional, I'm looking elsewhere.
But, what all this really tells me is that Apple now considers themselves a consumer level electronics company. They've lost interest in the professional and serious hobbiest markets. They're addressing nothing but the concerns of consumers who do nothing but download music and surf the net. Heck if I'd pay $1300 for the privelege of doing that. I can do that with a $400 netbook.

 

[Scottsdale]

Really, there is a solution just waiting to be made.

I have figured it out... Steve thinks since you all can afford a shiny new GlassBook, you can definitely buy new backup devices and video equipment.

Remember, Steve chooses which customers he wants (per Steve's recent comments), and Steve chooses customers that don't bitch and just buy the new video equipment that uses USB 2.0.

Steve wants the thinnest, least port cluttered, glossiest, and lightest GlassBook possible, and that is what you all get. HA HA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire

FireWire S800T (IEEE 1394c-2006) = credit previous poster

halfway down the page

With enough bitch'n by you all (I don't use firewire - have always seen USB 2.0 as a great solution and would choose a USB 2.0 device over a FireWire device), Apple may just make this themselves for saving face with the FireWire core.

Seems simple enough for Apple. It may be under way already with the massively endorsed petition to put the FW back on the MB. Problem solved... unless you use a wired network.

Actually, the wired network will probably be the next port to go. Welcome to the MB next revision, no Ethernet, no FireWire, but two USB 3.0 ports.

By then, USB 3.0 will probably be supporting a FW and Ethernet adapter (see there is always positive news around the corner).

 

[Belly-laughs]

Check the sites of Sony and Canon, count up the number of cameras using tape vs. the numbers of cameras using flash or hard disks. What do you think that is going to look like in 2010? how about 2012? 2018?

If anything this is speeding up. I'm not sure I'd call him an idiot.

Not sure the current MacBook will look, or work, too good in 2012 either. They sell FireWire cameras today, Apple should include FireWire today. In my view they should include it until there are next to zero FW peripherals left on the market – which won´t be anytime soon.

 

[localoid]

..
By then, USB 3.0 will probably be supporting a FW and Ethernet adapter (see there is always positive news around the corner).

Such an "adapter" would be a truly craptastic solution for real time data.

USB and Firewire = two different protocols. You'd need to translate one to the other. You need some code running in the background that translates one protocol into the other, which means there would always be a delay in the data stream.

Think of listening to a French person speaking to an audience with a translator off to the side explaining what the speaker just said to an English audience. After each sentence the translator translates the sentence into English. There is a noticable delay of several seconds.

You can't translate USB into Firewire without introducing a delay. Sure, computers are faster than humans -- a lot faster -- but even a 10ms delay is still a delay that's noticable. An "adapter" is NOT going to be a workable solution for anything that happens in real-time, that needs to remain perfectly in synch, such as audio. If the delay time "wobbles" between 10ms and 15ms, it's going to a very big problem, i.e., a singer can't overdue a vocal track that's perfectly in synch with the instrumental tracks.

 

[sushi]

Personally, I wish Apple would ditch Ethernet on the MB and put FW800 in it's place.

Then if I need to use Ethernet, I can always use one of the USB to Ethernet adapters. Apple already offers this on their store for 29 bucks. It was designed for use with the MBA, but would work just fine with the MB.

Most of the individuals that I know who use laptops connect wirelessly anyway. Few used wired connections. And if they use a wired connection at one place all the time, they can just leave the adapter there connected. So they just plug the adapter into their USB port instead of the Ethernet cable into the RJ-45 connector. Simple.

That way the MB could have FW and all the benefits of FW while being able to keep the form factor the same.

Seems like a simple solution for me.

 

[cube]

Personally, I wish Apple would ditch Ethernet on the MB and put FW800 in it's place.

Then if I need to use Ethernet, I can always use one of the USB to Ethernet adapters. Apple already offers this on their store for 29 bucks. It was designed for use with the MBA, but would work just fine with the MB.

Most of the individuals that I know who use laptops connect wirelessly anyway. Few used wired connections. And if they use a wired connection at one place all the time, they can just leave the adapter there connected. So they just plug the adapter into their USB port instead of the Ethernet cable into the RJ-45 connector. Simple.

That way the MB could have FW and all the benefits of FW while being able to keep the form factor the same.

Seems like a simple solution for me.

You can't have gigabit ethernet that way. That is a necessity for network backups.

Apple should ditch nothing. On the contrary, they should add all the stuff that is missing.

Their hardware is pathetic compared to PCs. Their only edge is FW800.