Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[editguy]

Ok, so I agree that the MBP is not a true 'Professional' solution. But the fact is that it IS Apple's attempt at a professional solution, regardless of your personal opinion. Which by the way, we are all entitled to. I didn't post on this forum to have my messages responded to in such a child like manner.

First, what's childish about the response? I wasn't saying you're an ignorant person. I was speaking to your ignorance about this particular subject. You're obviously not an audio or video professional or serious hobbyist so you can't speak to the needs of those that are.

I'd like to point out that you don't see film makers producing their films on VCRs any more. I have a VCR player however.

I'd like to point out that filmakers never used VCR's to produce films.

Yeah, dont we all. I'd like my macbook to have a graphics card as well. Thing is - whilst both are possible it is the harsh reality that Apple offer a model with such features thats a mere 2" larger, and one without. Your choice.

Yes, and that mere two inches is two inches more than I want. IF they didn't make the smaller MB, then there would be no argument. But, they do. And they chose to remove a viable and desirable feature.

Like Firewire, and your camera? In the same fashion, no manufacturer includes outdated technology in its newest designs. Im not saying Firewire is depreciated at all, i believe thats why Apple has included it the MBP.

You contradicted yourself here. You spoke of it as outdated technology and followed that up by saying that it's not. And it's very obviously not. It's being produced in many new devices and a new standard is coming.

A whole 2" and a few mm's more does not mean the MBP suddenly becomes unportable. Why do you insist on using a mid range laptop for fulfilling all of your professional requirements when it is clearly not designed for such use?

For you, maybe not. For me and thousands of others, it makes a big difference. When I'm on location shoots every bit of space and weight reduction is important. I use two notebooks plus a lot of other video equipment on every shoot.
And, you're wrong, it's design is very suited to my professional requirements. Once again I will state it, the designation by Apple of a "pro" label is nothing but a marketing tool.

Im sure Apple thought long and hard about removing the port. If you don't like the fact that they did, then go ahead, buy something else. Thats the way consumer market works - you find the product that suits you. Just dont go bitching because its not everything that you want it to be!

I don't think Apple thought this through at all. Unfortunately, they're now convinced that they can produce anything that they want and the masses will scoop it up. And, if consumers never complained about a product they would often not get the product they want or need. That's part of the consumer process. That's why most companies ask for feedback. They want to know what features are important to their customers. Without customers, there's no company. Apple seems to have forgotten that.

If the industry catered 100% for people like you, then we would still have beta max tapes and floppy disk drives. In order to move on we need to discard older technologies gradually. Hence the result.

Once again a statement built on ignorance of the subject matter. You don't discard a vaible and current technology, which firewire is. You even agreed that it was in an earlier statement in your post. Bringing up beta or floppy disks is a straw man argument. It's totally irrelevant and there's absolutely no comparison. Those things were replaced by similar competing or better (in the case of floppy disks) technologies. Apple replaced firewire with nothing on the MB. They took it away. And, if it's old technology that is holding us back, why in the world would they put it on products that they advertise as "pro", when pros want the latest and best technologies?

without reading the whole thread, i would think usb 3.0 will solve alot of the problems once its implemented

Absolutely not at all in any way. They are different and incompatible technologies.

 

[iEdd]

Once again a statement built on ignorance of the subject matter. You don't discard a vaible and current technology, which firewire is. You even agreed that it was in an earlier statement in your post. Bringing up beta or floppy disks is a straw man argument. It's totally irrelevant and there's absolutely no comparison. Those things were replaced by similar competing or better (in the case of floppy disks) technologies. Apple replaced firewire with nothing on the MB. They took it away. And, if it's old technology that is holding us back, why in the world would they put it on products that they advertise as "pro", when pros want the latest and best technologies?

Couldn't have said it better. He is also implying that newer = better. Using USB2 instead of FireWire, although newer, is like eating turd instead of chocolate. In certain lighting it may look the same, but the taste is quite different, depending how experienced you are - ie. if you've eaten chocolate (FW400) before, you know why USB (turd) just isn't the same.

 

[robeddie]

It's not about the argument

Again, and again, we see people posting here who are trying to tell us why we're 'stupid' or silly to complain about the lack of firewire.

But while we could disagree all day long about the merits (or lack thereof) of firewire, one thing is clear: Almost ALL of us are potential customers of Apple's products.

Another thing is clear by reading this board and countless others: There are a heck of a lot of CUSTOMERS who are extremely ticked off by the lack of firewire.

And that ultimately means that - it's probably a BAD business move by Apple.

Apple is a company. A company's main goal is to make customers happy, and thus make money.

This decision is making a big group of customers very UNhappy.

I'm very curious to see (in the next few months) how this affects Apple's bottom line.

 

[cube]

Which MR threads have crossed the 2000-post barrier?

 

[hihater]

"I'm a PC, and I still work with your Firewire cameras"

I guess every "PC" comes with firewire.

 

[hihater]

Again, and again, we see people posting here who are trying to tell us why we're 'stupid' or silly to complain about the lack of firewire.

But while we could disagree all day long about the merits (or lack thereof) of firewire, one thing is clear: Almost ALL of us are potential customers of Apple's products.

Another thing is clear by reading this board and countless others: There are a heck of a lot of CUSTOMERS who are extremely ticked off by the lack of firewire.

And that ultimately means that - it's probably a BAD business move by Apple.

Apple is a company. A company's main goal is to make customers happy, and thus make money.

This decision is making a big group of customers very UNhappy.

I'm very curious to see (in the next few months) how this affects Apple's bottom line.

In this class the group of people complaining is negligible, just watch.

 

[ErikCLDR]

This is apples way of trying to remove everything from their products.

iPhone only has a few buttons.

At first there was only 1 mouse button, now their are none.

Macbook air has only 3 ports- power, USB, and video.

The all in one iMacs

Remember before the days of the buttons integrated into the touch wheel of the iPod?


They're going to make a computer a solid block of metal and glass.

I wonder what steve's house is like. It probably has 2 light switches.

 

[Dark Fiber]

Fortunately I think enough smart people have NOT bought the MacBook so that sales will take a decent hit. That, and the price rise should cull the switchers and make them buy the white model. (

I wish this were true, however I doubt it. I think adverse publicity is the only way for the relatively small number of people who care about the loss of FW to achieve results out of proportion to their number.
Complain to Apple, complain at Applestores and complain to anyone in the media that you can make contact with. Complain to the big chains who have just started to carry Macs and are unsure if they've done the right thing- their management will take fright and feed back to Apple.

 

[robeddie]

In this class the group of people complaining is negligible, just watch.

You may be right. On the same token, as has been noted here earlier, you shouldn't assume that Apple is perfect. They may have simply blown this one (i.e. New Coke). Though I also think it's possible the insanely glossy display glass on the new notebooks may ultimately beat out firewire for the 'New Coke' analogy.

 

[jumper1]

skydivers say no to new mac

I usually just lurk around this site...but felt the need to add an additional view from another group who uses firewire a lot! I'm a skydiver videographer and have been using my MB to edit from a DV sony. I'm jumping from a plane with this thing on my head. From my experience DV works the best for this fast action, the other alternatives from what I've seen are to sensitive. I have heard a lot of complaining about this from fellow skydivers who also use MB's. Thanks for dorking up such a good ecosystem Apple!!!

 

[cosmonaut23]

Regarding the "independent engineers" finding that Firewire had to be removed because of size restraints of the unibody design, and specifically, a consequent radical rethink of logic board layout in the MacBook, I've found it interesting to look at pictures of the new and old logic boards.

Ladies and Gents, I give you the new and old MacBook Logic Boards, (Left and Right) Plead notice, the most most major difference in the new one is the chunk taken out of the bottom left where they've removed the FW. Otherwise, not really a radical rethink by the looks of it:

 

[OttawaGuy]

Regarding the "independent engineers" finding that Firewire had to be removed because of size restraints of the unibody design, and specifically, a consequent radical rethink of logic board layout in the MacBook, I've found it interesting to look at pictures of the new and old logic boards.

Ladies and Gents, I give you the new and old MacBook Logic Boards, (Left and Right) Plead notice, the most most major difference in the new one is the chunk taken out of the bottom left where they've removed the FW. Otherwise, not really a radical rethink by the looks of it:

The few grams they saved in weight are hardly worth the loss of functionality.

 

[cosmonaut23]

I wonder what steve's house is like. It probably has 2 light switches.

Actually, he's getting rid of those switches. The lights too.

 

[cosmonaut23]

...Jonathon Ives told him none of these superfluous household "features" were helping the minimal aesthetic, and his should "keep it real" by ditching the lot. Interestingly, he's also opted to do away with windows in his radical new "unibody" house. Its now just a single peice of immaculately crafted concrete.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

This is apples way of trying to remove everything from their products.

iPhone only has a few buttons.

At first there was only 1 mouse button, now their are none.

Macbook air has only 3 ports- power, USB, and video.

The all in one iMacs

Remember before the days of the buttons integrated into the touch wheel of the iPod?


They're going to make a computer a solid block of metal and glass.

I wonder what steve's house is like. It probably has 2 light switches.

No switches. He just slides his hand on a wall and the lights come on.

 

[darwinian]

Regarding the "independent engineers" finding that Firewire had to be removed because of size restraints of the unibody design, and specifically, a consequent radical rethink of logic board layout in the MacBook, I've found it interesting to look at pictures of the new and old logic boards.

Ladies and Gents, I give you the new and old MacBook Logic Boards, (Left and Right) Plead notice, the most most major difference in the new one is the chunk taken out of the bottom left where they've removed the FW. Otherwise, not really a radical rethink by the looks of it:

Wow, I think this is one of the most useful additions to this conversation in days. Called 'em out. I wonder why they did it; seems so arbitrary without a concession or replacement.

 

[RedTomato]

Wow, I think this is one of the most useful additions to this conversation in days. Called 'em out. I wonder why they did it; seems so arbitrary without a concession or replacement.

I'm one of these who has bitterly complained about the lack of firewire in the new MBs, and it has caused our company major difficulties in our laptop upgrade strategy, but I would have to say, these two circuit boards are very different. Almost every chip is in a different place, and it's clearly a major redesign.

My personal belief is the missing part of circuit board was going to host a 4 pin FW port. It's the logical place to put a 4-pin FW port and still have 2 USB ports, and it fits with the decreasing size of ports from back to front.

Also it's been suggested that Apple use FW for testing logic boards in their prototyping process, so I think that area is where the FW interface was in their prototypes.

 

[Mac Maven]

I just copied files over from my G5 to my new MBP, and I must say that it reinforces my view that I would not recommend buying any Mac that lacks Firewire and therefore TDM. I know that Migration Assistant works over networks now, but TDM is just awesome and USB will never support it.

 

[hiimamac]

Really you guys?

Really?


You could never play a game on a macbook right?

But that didn't stop herds of people using the MB for MOTION.
I give you the following benchmarks for MB's first and second GEN.

70%, then 140%, then 171% with Leopard.

So, given you could never play a 3D game on the machine but could run motion, Apple went OUT OF THEIR WAY to cripple the MB and released the X300. The benchmark dropped to 70% again. Translation: NO MORE MOTION or pro apps.


If you think for one second it's about a dying technology, you're a fool.
It's all about marketing and Apple greed. Why go out of there way to hurt the 1% of the PRO user base that used a cheap MB for motion or FCP by releasing X300?

Same thing this time around. Make a machine that has killer graphics, then kill off firewire means, once again, NO PRO USE.

Jobs needs to step down and from what I hear from my 20+ Apple friends at the Pasadena store, one of the top 10 in sales, they are not selling that many MB's and the air is a dud, as is the Apple TV.

Jobs and his paranoid greed and PRO PRO PRO market needs to go.
The MB can do the job and then some of the MBP if it had firewire, but now, seeing how the cost to make MB and MBP are the same with the UNIBODY, no, JOBS decides to screw the people that made him who he is, the CREATIVES and all the WORKSHOPS are for iLife and how to create an email with attachments. Gimme a break.

Again, Jobs is losing his mind. He needs to step down and stop being so greedy and stop worrying about the PRO user base. Hello!!

If the PRO could get a MB to do the job, they would still get the PRO models - why Jobs doesn't get that is beyond me.

He is losing it- anyone see the keynote and UNI BODY? He acted like someone was going to steal one. What a paranoid person.

Firewire needs to come back - its not dead and USB takes CPU cycles and overhead. Firewire is stellar compared to USB. Now there is a dying technology, USB, not firewire.

 

[Roco1981]

Not Doing Good Mr. Jobs

I hope very much Mr. Jobs is reading this someday, I have always love macs they are beautiful, efficient and reliable, this why is very sad for me to say this.

Today I wanted to buy a macbook pro for in location field work in addition to my power mac g5 2.0 gzh dual quore (such a great machine) which I use mainly at studio, and I find out the macbook pro to be almost the same as the last model and with even worse battery performance, yes no firewire 400 and only one firewire 800. Are you crazy? how can I connect the more than 4000 usd profesional video cameras( there still a good number of selling models with this port utilization) and great professional audio recorders such as sound devices ?, plus there is no way to capture in my great g-technology hard drive any video footage, since there is only one firewire port, maybe if you had put two of them it would be ok since the adapter is not expensive but men, only one, why. Lastly I can´t believe they dare throw you this machine at such high prices with nothing but "good intentions" but bad decisions. I am supposed to be a pro in what I do, but for us in the media business, this machine is not even an entry level machine. Even the last model of macbook pro gives us better solutions. Sorry I used to wan´t a macbook pro, but this has nothing of pro to offer, besides the huge prize which is not even worth.

Hope you reedem for macworld 2009 since I will wait for a new version of a new macbook pro with 2 800 firewire ports at least, blu ray (even if this gives you a pain in the...) matte screen 2.8 ghz or more for processors and 7200 rpms hard disk drives or faster and maybe hdmi or something equivalent why not?. Please Steve, is not that difficult to please us, you get richer (If that is possible?) and we get at least good computers to work happy.

 

[Mac Maven]

At least with the MBP you can still add a Firewire ExpressCard for additional Firewire ports.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

Given all the bitching here, I wonder how many of you are looking at PCs. For the price of that macbook, I know I am.

After my ridiculously expensive G5 had support dropped by many software manufacturers during the "intel" switch, and then my G5 stopped working all together a mere two weeks after my AppleCare ran out, I'm thinking twice about throwing $2000 at an Apple computer again.

I priced out the MacBooks and MBP's I would want at the Apple store (with my educational discount). Then I priced out some ugly ass, nasty PC laptops. What did I find? Firewire. Hi-res monitors. More USB ports.

Rather than sit here and bitch about something you can't change, vote with your wallet. There is only one program I want on the Mac that I can't run on the PC.

The Unity 3d engine. I'll miss it, I guess. Until the PC version is released.

 

[hihater]

Really you guys?

Really?


You could never play a game on a macbook right?

But that didn't stop herds of people using the MB for MOTION.
I give you the following benchmarks for MB's first and second GEN.

70%, then 140%, then 171% with Leopard.

So, given you could never play a 3D game on the machine but could run motion, Apple went OUT OF THEIR WAY to cripple the MB and released the X300. The benchmark dropped to 70% again. Translation: NO MORE MOTION or pro apps.


If you think for one second it's about a dying technology, you're a fool.
It's all about marketing and Apple greed. Why go out of there way to hurt the 1% of the PRO user base that used a cheap MB for motion or FCP by releasing X300?

Same thing this time around. Make a machine that has killer graphics, then kill off firewire means, once again, NO PRO USE.

Jobs needs to step down and from what I hear from my 20+ Apple friends at the Pasadena store, one of the top 10 in sales, they are not selling that many MB's and the air is a dud, as is the Apple TV.

Jobs and his paranoid greed and PRO PRO PRO market needs to go.
The MB can do the job and then some of the MBP if it had firewire, but now, seeing how the cost to make MB and MBP are the same with the UNIBODY, no, JOBS decides to screw the people that made him who he is, the CREATIVES and all the WORKSHOPS are for iLife and how to create an email with attachments. Gimme a break.

Again, Jobs is losing his mind. He needs to step down and stop being so greedy and stop worrying about the PRO user base. Hello!!

If the PRO could get a MB to do the job, they would still get the PRO models - why Jobs doesn't get that is beyond me.

He is losing it- anyone see the keynote and UNI BODY? He acted like someone was going to steal one. What a paranoid person.

Firewire needs to come back - its not dead and USB takes CPU cycles and overhead. Firewire is stellar compared to USB. Now there is a dying technology, USB, not firewire.

So let me get this, Jobs needs to steps down because of your anecdotal evidence from one store in Pasadena? Come on is this a joke or what.

 

[the Helix]

Never thought that I would see the day...

when I would actually consider a ThinkPad™ or a VAIO™ as my next laptop. I started using a Mac back in 1984 when it first came out and continued to use them even back in the 90's when Apple was on the brink of extinction. Nevertheless, stuck with them because their products worked well and made sense.

However, taking away FW - the most important port that I use on the Mac - without any explanation or replacement feature is just something I (and many thousands of others) cannot understand or fathom. Apple is either greedy and presumptuous towards their client base, or they made an incredibly stupid oversight in thinking that aesthetics was a greater criteria than functionality.

In any case, they need to get the FW back (as well as the matte screen), or this long time Mac user will join many others who will consider another computer for their next purchase.

Cheers.

 

[Compile 'em all]

I priced out the MacBooks and MBP's I would want at the Apple store (with my educational discount). Then I priced out some ugly ass, nasty PC laptops. What did I find? Firewire. Hi-res monitors. More USB ports.

You forgot to add to that malware, wasted CPU cycles, and the general feeling that you want to kill yourself when using the ancient-ware that is Windows.