Steve Jobs Posts 'Thoughts on Flash' Open Letter

[charlesbronsen]

"Stop lying to the public" probably wasn't the best way to start off.

 

[dejo]

I'm very frustrated by this whole thing, and it won't help anyone in the end.

Well, you're right there.

 

[iObama]

Well, you're right there.

Very funny. I obviously meant since, not and.

 

[tdmac]

There's nothing particularly wrong with that. I don't find fault with Apple's views- or your own- against the quality of Flash. I don't care for Apple deciding to block access to it for consumers. This is just like I don't care much for Apple arbitrarily deciding which apps are accepted and which are rejected if both groups of apps are functional and not outside of decency standards, etc.

In other words, I keep arguing for the user option... an ability to download a Flash player app just like any other app. If that app crashes my iDevice, at least I have the option to get that app and use it.

Otherwise, this "it's Apple's device" reasoning basically is a blank check. As Apple grows its influence, it can arbitrarily choose more and more about what we can and can't do with the products we buy from them. When Microsoft uses it's dominance to do this kind of thing, we rail against them to no end. When Apple does it, they are absolutely right for doing so, and here's a bunch of arguments why.

Sure this is Macrumors, so Apple fans are in abundance, but those fans don't have to automatically buy Apple's decisions in such things.

If HTML5 + H.264 + javascript is superior to Flash equivalents, it will eventually take over and rule the web for things that Flash does now. But just as OS X as a superior OS hasn't taken over as the dominant OS in use worldwide (yet), such migrations take time. An OPTION for users that want Flash on their iDevices is a win for them NOW, and probably for at least the life of the current generation(s) of iDevices. Those users that hate Flash wouldn't have to ever turn on that option, so it's no loss for them. And by the time that HTML5, etc has taken over for Flash so that there aren't sites and site features to be found that won't play on the next-next-next generation iDevice, that Flash option would just fade out of use, like any outdated app that loses favor to the newer & better solution.

An OPTION works for all involved, so that everyone can use their iDevice as they wish to use it- Flash on or Flash off.

This is a bad argument and not the point.

The adoption to HTML5 would then be incredibly slow and could never happen. If developers find it easy to program in flash then this will drag on forever even if flash provides poor performance and crashes the OS since as you say, I will put up with it since I want the option. Since Apple has a huge user base they can use their influence to cut off flash and speed the adoption to web standards. This I for one see as a good thing. They are using the huge influence to force a switch to openess and speed it adoption vs the usual waiting and waiting.

BTW, the move to html5 would benefit all device mfg's and not just Apple.

Also, nobody blocked anything. The iphone, ipod touch and ipad all did not have the ability to play flash from day 1. Its one thing if you had the ability to play flash content and then Apple decided to restrict it. Then you and everyone else who complains of options or openness would have a point. But if you want the device you buy it understanding its limitations... period. Otherwise don't buy.

Not to mention that this limitation is the same limitation today on every mobile device. So I don't get what all of the uproar is about.

Also where should the options end? Should I have the option to use MAC programs on a Windows machine? Should I have the ability as another poster said to play PS3 games on my Xbox. Hey why not an option to run flash video on my Wii? Shouldn't it be my choice I bought the hardware? Uh No. You buy what the device and the OS can do. While we all could say it would be great if X device had x ability that is fine. But no one can be bent out of shape that something they bought knowing that it did not have the funtionality in the first place does not in fact have said functionality.

 

[miles01110]

1) You have way too much time on your hands.
2) Notice that every single one of those links were news links, not user-instigated topics.

1) It took approximately 1 minute although admittedly I did not time it.
2) Notice that every single one of those news links devolved into the same type of mindless drivel that is comparable to your "letter."

 

[Scooterman1]

I didn't get very far reading that letter. Not when it started out with outright lies about Flash. I have many Flash writing Software programs, and NONE are from Adobe. I also have pdf authoring programs. Yes, I have Acrobat, but I seldom use it anymore. Admittedly, I'm on Windows 7, but I DO have many programs that write Flash files.
O.K., someone will ask what..... Several programs from CoffeeCup, and I use SwishMax a lot.
This is taken from Wikipedia under SWF:
This article is about the file format .swf. For other uses, see SWF (disambiguation).
Adobe Flash (SWF) Filename extension .swf Internet media type application/x-shockwave-flash Developed by FutureWave Software,
later taken over by Macromedia and
Adobe Systems Type of format Vector graphic animation The file format[1] SWF, has variably stood for "Small Web Format" or "Shockwave Flash". It is a partially open repository for multimedia and vector graphics, originating with FutureWave Software and then coming under the control of Adobe. Intended to be small enough for publication on the web, SWF files can contain animations or applets of varying degrees of interactivity and function.
SWF currently[update] functions as the dominant format for displaying "animated" vector graphics on the Web. It may also be used for programs, commonly games, using Actionscript.
SWF files can be generated from within several Adobe products: Flash, Flex Builder (an IDE), as well as through MXMLC, a command line application compiler which is part of the freely available Flex SDK. Other than Adobe products, SWFs can be built with open source Motion-Twin ActionScript 2 Compiler (MTASC), the open source Ming library, the free software suite SWFTools, the proprietary SWiSH Max2 and the web-based application BannerSnack. There are also various third party programs that can produce files in this format, such as Multimedia Fusion 2.


If that letter was from Steve Jobs, I would think that he would be more knowledgeable than this. And then, maybe he is, and thinks we aren't.

 

[Maxipeg]

It has to be "usable"

If it is available, most people will use it, even those who hate it. If people use Flash, others will develop sites with Flash. The only way to kill Flash off is to remove it from the most popular platforms. If a web developer knows many people will not be able to use his or her site if it is running Flash, that web developer will not use Flash. When Web developers stop using Flash, it will be dead.

1. Millions of iPhones have been sold despite lack of flash support
2. Try to run a flash movie on a MacBook Pro (which certainly has a more powerful processor and a larger battery than the iPhone) the fans start spinning like crazy and the battery is empty in no time. Imagine what would happen to the iPhone. There are chances that it would overheat, then crash and burn, and you would sue Apple. Then just imagine Flash running on millions of computers. What a waste of energy.
3. Or try to run a flash movie on a G4 PowerBook. No comment. Awful. The PPC G4 is likely to be more powerful than anything that drives the iPhone or even the iPad.

I think since the iPhone OS is actually a MacOS X, these are valid reasons to avoid flash on the iPhone.

Even if Apple's decision to block Flash was pure business... Adobe made it very easy for Apple. Jobs is no idiot. Energy and power consumption will become an issue in the future. Mobility too. Today's hardware has a lot of power (remember the first Mac with a 8 MHz processor?) but the software sucks (because it still runs "quite OK" on a reasonably modern PC). So I think Apple's strategy to push development towards more efficiency will prove right in a few years.

In a few years Flash will be history, unless it can be optimized. Which I doubt.

If you find out that your horse is dead it's time to get off...

 

[tdmac]

It wasn't fine when they actually had to create a device that doesn't have disposable resources: The iPhone. That is when Apple realized that the **** that is Flash just won't cut it.

As simple as that.

Correct.

In the case of the iPad, what apple is trying to show everyone is that you don't need huge amounts of RAM, Processing Power, etc to still have a good user computing experience. They are trying to show that great applications and web content, that can do most of our daily needs can be run on minimalistic processing power compared when compared to what is the norm on normal desktops, laptops, etc.

 

[Zepaw]

This is one of the biggest reasons why I think Steve Jobs is such an asset to Apple. Few other corporations can release such personable press releases. It doesn't feel like something focus grouped, it is a real letter and having Steve Jobs as the writer gives people a reason to read. Definitely deserves that spot in TIME's Top 100 most influential.

K enough Steve Jobs love. Never knew Adobe and Apple used to be so close.

 

[mkwomble]

What I think confuses me is that flash works fine on my PC and my bootcamp on my iMac but yet in osX it's crappy.

Surely that's a problem with the OS more so than flash itself?

 

[ReallyBigFeet]

I have several issues with Mr. Jobs mini-thesis posted today. But my biggest is his claims that Flash in some way negatively impacts battery life.

That's pretty absurd given that he architects a design that gives us no removable battery and EVERYTHING we use, from WiFi to Bluetooth to App Store apps to any of the built-in apps, burns battery life. Sometimes so much so that you can't even use the phone for more than a couple of hours without needing a charge.

Some of his comments I understand. But how can you expect me, a consumer of your products, to buy that Flash negatively impacts my battery life when it is YOU who have limited how much battery life I can choose to have in the first place?

 

[bretm]

The bottom line is that Apple might be repeating history. Just like 1984 they were first out of the gate with a great product. The macintosh. But Jobs bickering with the computing world about what is and what should be let them to 1995 and the release of Windows 95. We know how the story goes from there. None of his arguments couldn't be solved if he wanted to. A simple toggle switch allowing flash to run but with a warning that it's going to run slow and may compromise security would be enough. They could even have it just be functional for 10 minutes or 30minutes or a day or whatever so as not to kill the battery.

No, Jobs is on his high horse trying to get the world to do something his way. It can only take him so far. HTML 5 isn't anywhere near there yet. And there sure aren't any true WYSIWYG programs for creating interactive HTML 5 content and animation. Perhaps Apple has one in the works. And a Photoshop killer too. And hopefully an indesign killer and illustrator killer since they'll need all those apps if they keep ticking off Adobe.

We'll see.

 

[Maxipeg]

I didn't get very far reading that letter. Not when it started out with outright lies about Flash. I have many Flash writing Software programs, and NONE are from Adobe. I also have pdf authoring programs. Yes, I have Acrobat, but I seldom use it anymore. Admittedly, I'm on Windows 7, but I DO have many programs that write Flash files.
O.K., someone will ask what..... Several programs from CoffeeCup, and I use SwishMax a lot.
This is taken from Wikipedia under SWF:
This article is about the file format .swf. For other uses, see SWF (disambiguation).
Adobe Flash (SWF) Filename extension .swf Internet media type application/x-shockwave-flash Developed by FutureWave Software,
later taken over by Macromedia and
Adobe Systems Type of format Vector graphic animation The file format[1] SWF, has variably stood for "Small Web Format" or "Shockwave Flash". It is a partially open repository for multimedia and vector graphics, originating with FutureWave Software and then coming under the control of Adobe. Intended to be small enough for publication on the web, SWF files can contain animations or applets of varying degrees of interactivity and function.
SWF currently[update] functions as the dominant format for displaying "animated" vector graphics on the Web. It may also be used for programs, commonly games, using Actionscript.
SWF files can be generated from within several Adobe products: Flash, Flex Builder (an IDE), as well as through MXMLC, a command line application compiler which is part of the freely available Flex SDK. Other than Adobe products, SWFs can be built with open source Motion-Twin ActionScript 2 Compiler (MTASC), the open source Ming library, the free software suite SWFTools, the proprietary SWiSH Max2 and the web-based application BannerSnack. There are also various third party programs that can produce files in this format, such as Multimedia Fusion 2.


If that letter was from Steve Jobs, I would think that he would be more knowledgeable than this. And then, maybe he is, and thinks we aren't.

So why is Adobe so much upset about Apple blocking Flash? Could it be that it's still proprietary and that Adobe is licencing it?

And while you cite Wikipedia, why not also this: "The proprietary nature of Flash is a concern to advocates of open standards and free software. Its widespread use has, according to some such observers, harmed the otherwise open nature of the World Wide Web"

 

[Tulse]

Surely that's a problem with the OS more so than flash itself?

As opposed to a terrible implementation of Flash on OS X?

 

[mcmlxix]

Or try to run a flash movie on a G4 PowerBook. No comment.

Ha. I still use my G4 iBook and if I have it on my lap while watching a Flash video, my lap becomes a swamp until it's too hot to continue. What do I get for all of this? The pleasure of watching a stuttering mess where half of the time the video isn't even in sync with the audio.

 

[Scooterman1]

So why is Adobe so much upset about Apple blocking Flash? Could it be that it's still proprietary and that Adobe is licencing it?

If Adobe IS licensing the flash to the Software I'm using, they are certainly fair in their fees. Adobe is very high in price, and the ones I'm using, are inexpensive.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

The adoption to HTML5 would then be incredibly slow and could never happen.

If it is genuinely better, then it will take hold. Every technological advance does not begin by Apple choosing to cease something else. Almost all technological advances happen because the advance option turns out to be a better (or cheaper) way. Apple didn't have to kill the floppy for DVD to take over. Apple didn't have to kill serial or parallel for USB to take over. Apple didn't have to even kill OS9 for OS10 to take over. Almost everything that is better wins by being better. The "old" and the "new" coexist until the new is just so obviously better that the "old" fades away.

If developers find it easy to program in flash then this will drag on forever even if flash provides poor performance

Developers go where the money is. When the money is in HTML5 over Flash, developers will rush there. Apple already have a tidal wave of developers coding for iDevices within Apples framework. Why? Because the money is there. When HTML5, etc is important enough to their employers/clients, they'll code in HTML5, etc.

Since Apple has a huge user base they can use their influence to cut off flash and speed the adoption to web standards. This I for one see as a good thing. They are using the huge influence to force a switch to openess and speed it adoption vs the usual waiting and waiting.

First, if you want this to go quickly, you win support from Microsoft. They still dominate the space. If you can get Microsoft to deem "Flash is dead" and support it in their restrictions & practices, then you can move rapidly toward the new standard. Apple has influence- no doubt- but are too small to significantly drive adoption of HTML5, etc over Flash. Other much bigger players would have to join Apple to give this the gas.

Secondly, HTML5 is not an approved web standard- only a draft. It is not expected to be a finalized standard until 2022. And between now and then, it could change. Personally, I support the migration toward HTML5, but I'm not happy about Apple deciding to block the OPTION on these iDevices. They could let those interested have the option, and let the better technology phase out the weaker technology in time. Then, we could make full use of the web today and tomorrow.

Also where should the options end? Should I have the option to use MAC programs on a Windows machine? Should I have the ability as another poster said to play PS3 games on my Xbox. Hey why not an option to run flash video on my Wii? Shouldn't it be my choice I bought the hardware? Uh No.

Nice examples, but obviously there is a major difference between your examples and getting some software already running on OS X, running on OS X for iDevices. It is not as complicated a leap as getting Mac programs running on Windows or PS3 on XBox. Whether true or false- the perception exists that flash could run on iDevices, if only Apple would allow it to do so. The perception is not such that it would be a major undertaking on Apple's part to allow such an option. Thus, it could be manifested much like any outside coder coding an app for the iPhone.

If it would deliver a crappy/buggy/crash experience for iDevice users, Apple would be in the clear and Adobe would be clearly at fault. However, as is, Apple looks easy to blame for not even allowing the option. If Apple relented, it would all be on Adobe to prove Steve's view right or wrong. I'd much rather have the option to eat mud by an Adobe failure to deliver than wondering if my iDevice could be that much better if Apple would only let a bit of software on it.

I can't believe there are even arguments against a user OPTION. If that option is not turned on, your iDevice works exactly as is. And if that option is turned on, its only turned on for those that choose to do so on their own iDevice- not yours. Thus, the "flash is bad, bring on HTML5" crowd can still maintain the exact same experience they have now. And those of us that would like even a modest incarnation of Flash on our own iDevice could burn our batteries faster if we want to do so. This "I'm against it for me, so you shouldn't have it either" reasoning is a poor stance from a crowd rallying behind more "open" computing.

 

[WilliamLondon]

If Adobe IS licensing the flash to the Software I'm using, they are certainly fair in their fees. Adobe is very high in price, and the ones I'm using, are inexpensive.

What is your point, because it sounds very much to me like you just argued against it?

"Fair in their fees" - that is not open standards nor is it open source. The letter is *not* full of lies as you would claim.

With open standards you pay a fee to *no one* and everyone can build tools to that standard.

 

[Maxipeg]

The bottom line is that Apple might be repeating history. Just like 1984 they were first out of the gate with a great product. The macintosh. But Jobs bickering with the computing world about what is and what should be let them to 1995 and the release of Windows 95. We know how the story goes from there. None of his arguments couldn't be solved if he wanted to. A simple toggle switch allowing flash to run but with a warning that it's going to run slow and may compromise security would be enough. They could even have it just be functional for 10 minutes or 30minutes or a day or whatever so as not to kill the battery.

No, Jobs is on his high horse trying to get the world to do something his way. It can only take him so far. HTML 5 isn't anywhere near there yet. And there sure aren't any true WYSIWYG programs for creating interactive HTML 5 content and animation. Perhaps Apple has one in the works. And a Photoshop killer too. And hopefully an indesign killer and illustrator killer since they'll need all those apps if they keep ticking off Adobe.

We'll see.

The 1984 Mac was a great example of highly efficient Hardware-Software integration. The Apple guidelines for developers of Mac software guaranteed a consistent experience and user-friendliness of Macintosh software without which it would have died in the early nineties together with the Ataris and the Commodores. You may remember that Jobs brought Apple on the track when many foresaw it's end in the late nineties. He was the CEO at Apple when there was that incredibly smooth transition from PPC to intel because mighty IBM failed to deliver powerful PowerPC processors. He completely revolutionized the way we buy music and movies. Remember Disney before Pixar? And so on. Don't misunderstand me, he is no Guru for me or something, and I am far from being a "fanboy". I just see a bunch of decisions this guy has taken in the past few years (or at least OK'd them) that proved to be extremely far-sighted. So perhaps at Adobe they should stop being stubborn and childish, and at least listen and think about it.

 

[diddl14]

Apple does an extreme job of blocking flash

See http://comixed.com/2010/04/28/4-koma-comic-strip-flash-plug-in

 

[supercaliber]

Cya

Jobs post is nothing more than covering his ars

He is gonna get heat for not supporting Flash and so he has to put up a big smoke screen of issues to send the roaches running after every point he makes.

Loved the Adobe response today, classic.

The ends does not always justify the means Steve. I would have bought three more iPads this year for family if it didn't suckkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!

 

[RazHyena]

LOL! Steve has a problem with Flash being a CLOSED system???

ROFLMAO!! Now that's funny!! HAHAHA!!

 

[Justinf79]

Such lame excuses Jobs. Everyone knows you don't want Flash because it would kill your app store profits. Just man up and admit it. You'll be better for it.

Not true at all actually. Apple approved a web browser that displays flash content, and it was on the App store for awhile, until the App makers pulled it.
They pulled it because web requests were routed to their own servers, which were being hammered.

 

[llatker]

iGimphttp://images.macrumors.com/vb/images/smilies/mad.gif

My iPad, or what I call "iGimp," arrives tomorrow. However, I got my grandson a 16GB WiFi iPad, so I had a week of hands on with it – when he wasn't reading something on it, which was nearly all the time. Loved it! So did the grandson.

That said, my own website, developed using Adobe Dreamweaver and Flash, can't be viewed on an iPad, crippled by Steve, which is why I call it an iGimp. I'll make up an iGimp label and place it over the iPad name on the back.

My site, http://raymondchandler.info, has an old Tour de France (see the reunite Cissy & Ray page) interactive map done in Flash, and I have a series of my own interactive maps (see the Vintage Map page) which I did in Flash. HTML5 will not do that – I'm not just running videos. My content is interactive. BTW, I have a Wacom Graphire3 Pen Tablet, and the pen works fine with my content, hence gestures would work just as well!

I'm not a programmer. I tried taking Pascal at UCLA Extension, and dropped out because I couldn't figure out the assignments, let alone the answers. Not everyone can code.

I met the programmer who automated the typesetting for the Los Angeles Times. The Times reasoned it would be easier to teach a typesetter how to program than teach a programmer all he needed to know about typesetting. Out of the hundreds of typesetters the paper had, they only found ONE who was able to make that transition. Again, let me state that not everyone can code, let alone do it well!

Sure, using C a programmer could do the same things a non programmer can do in Flash, and a lot more. Maybe in Java as well. I don't know. In any case, I don't do either. I can however, make up something cool in Flash.

There are many many more people with creative ideas, who can use Flash, than there are C programmers. For that reason, Flash will endure, it won't die, nor go away. If Adobe is smart, and they haven't made too many stupid mistakes to date, Flash will change and keep up with the rapid technological advances in both hardware and software well into the future.

Steve is spitting into the wind on this, and if the Android OS delivers as promised by running Flash well, the blow back is going to leave him all wet and looking really dumb.

I worked for Xerox for 17 years. Whenever I suggested using an Apple product, many old timers would respond, "No, I hate Apple." When I asked why, they invariable would say that the Jobs and Woz toured PARC and stole Xerox technology. Actually, Apple trade stock for the technology, but those Xerox managers refused to hear the truth, just like Jobs is doing today vis-a-vis Flash. Not surprising given that Apple copied Xerox's pricing model for many years, which nearly was its undoing. Even today Apple is thought to be much more expensive than Intel-Windows hardware.

If you ever used a Xerox 6085 computer, you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind and totally stupid not to see where Apple's OS got it's System Folder and structure, etc. The only real difference was that Apple's hardware was faster and worked better.

If the Android pads and phones deliver on the promise to run Flash content, and do it well, the iPad and iPhone will take a big hit, which the press will focus on.

The press loved to kick Apple when it was down. Now that Apple is the top of the heap among cell phones and pads, the press is going to be looking for the iPhone/iPad Killer, and Steve is handing them the ammunition.

The iPad is a joy, and while I didn't care much about no Flash on the iPhone because of the small screen, no Flash on the iPad is a much bigger deal, given the bigger screen.

If you will never need to access Flash based content, you will love the iPad. If accessing content built with Flash is really important to you, wait for an Android based device.

 

[ScottishDuck]

Reality distortion field at maximum output.