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Best quote ever...

Steve Jobs said:
Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

That was the best line in the letter. People should move away from Flash and support native formats instead, everyone big is using WebKit anyway.

My two cents (sense, scents? haha)

Nick
 
I'd Consider myself a web developer, I know HTML/CSS/Javascript/PHP and I do know Flash as well and am not against using it, Though I avoid it.

But to hear some of you say that your losing customers due to inability to create an iPhone based website since all you develop in is flash, thats just bull. Theres a big beautiful world out there and you don't need Flash to create it, just seems like such laziness to me.

Thats just my 2 cents.
 
Please believe me, This is the truth... I went to this site "we choose the moon .org as you said...

My brand new Macbook pro got very, very hot then the flash plugin failed asking me if I wanted to report it...

hmmm

Interesting, i went on that site and watched the whole thing, My 2 year old base macbook pro which is running Leopard as well. it also didn't slow down at all.
 
Oh yes, the wait 5 min for a web page to load?

I've yet to see something on that site that you can't do without flash.

Just because there aren't drag and drop HTML5, and javascript tools doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means that skilled people will do it, and less designers that have no business coding interactive things.

I think you should check your internet connection, I am on a crappy 3g mobile broadband connection and the site loaded very quickly and everything was very fluid.
 
Interesting, i went on that site and watched the whole thing, My 2 year old base macbook pro which is running Leopard as well. it also didn't slow down at all.

maybe you have the latest flash plugin while he doesn't.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times Flash was updated in the past 60days or Adobe Acrobat Reader (9.0, 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 and soon 9.4) that I had to install directly from Adobe for WinXP SP2/SP3 computers at work - along with many of my colleagues. the updates obviously fix bugs - but why so many so quickly after one another ... are they trying to prove dependance?

Right now only RIM's BlackBerry and Microsoft do not use Webkit browser - RIM not using flash just yet. RIM's new Webkit Engine in Blackberry os 6 next quarter will use HTML5 with ACID 3 100% compatibility.
 
I have one question about these two lines from the Thoughts:

"For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5. Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X."

Wouldn't Microsoft be the last major third party to make use of Cocoa? I checked Excel 2008, and it looks like that it still based off of Carbon.


Either way, I'm not too concerned about the Flash debate. Not having Flash on the iPhone hasn't overly hampered my experience when browsing the web. However, it is nice to have a common platform for delivering video rather than having to select between Windows Media, Real, or (sometimes) QuickTime.
 
Matthew, sadly your bias has blinded you. The solution is so simple it is laughable. Bluetooth mouse gets you a cursor.

No idea if you continued in this thread, but I just wanted to duck in to congratulate you on solving that whole "rollover" issue.

Of course! Why didn't I think of that? Adding a MOUSE to a touch device! Brilliant, sir.

All of Office:Mac 2011 will be Cocoa, even Outlook. In private beta now, shipping this Fall.

Outlook will be 100% Cocoa, the other apps... not so much.
 
At first, I was really on Adobe's side, being that I've been using Adobe products for the past decade with my creative works and quite like them.

But after reading this message from Jobs, he does make quite a few valid arguments that when pointed out, seem obvious that no one else has picked up on them before. One being the "rollover" issue with the touch devices. The other is the cross-platform app development.....being that apps will only be as good as the program allows........not as good as it could be with all the API's that Apple provides in the developers kit.

All in all, I now have to say that I'm siding with Jobs on this one. We'll see what happens.
 
As someone on Engadget said, if Jobs is issuing a PR release, then we know Apple's getting some pretty negative backlash, and things need some fixin'.

So Apple has done some studies among Ipad early adopters and found out that the single biggest fault of the device is: Lack of Flash.

And of course, attack is your best defense. Way to go Steve.

This has to be the explanation. Otherwise why bother giving Adobe any attention/press.

I got a kick out of this line:

So what about that "bag of hurt"? If H.264 drives Blu-ray, why hasn't Apple adopted it in Macs?

Such lame excuses Jobs. Everyone knows you don't want Flash because it would kill your app store profits. Just man up and admit it. You'll be better for it.

It's only characterized as a "bag of hurt" when it is competition with Apple's iTunes "HD" movie downloads, Appstore and iAds. Nothing wrong with protecting your interests, but dont piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining.


I'm pretty neutral on this whole thing, but seriously Apple...pot, kettle, black. Going on about leaving the past behind and wanting to give the best user experience, when your die-hard fans are routinely disappointed by your hardware offerings. Releasing new laptops with processors that have been available for what, 3 or 4 years? Leaving the past behind...gimme a break.

They're finally starting to turn the corner but I agree, the graphics card choices for the MP are still abysmal.
 
I realize I'm going to take some heat for writing this, but everytime I read something written by Jobs, it makes me second guess my reason for owning so many Macs.

I have a 27" Imac, 2 macbook pros, 2 iphones, 1 IPad, an apple TV, and an airport extreme. I'm truly an all Mac house.

That being said, I can decide myself if I want 5 or 10 hour battery life..

And to talk about open standards, obviously very hipocritical. With all of the quality issues they have had recently I was on the fence on whether to switch to PC. I got one of the bad 27" Imac's with the yellow screen, and my Ipad doesn't get good reception with my airport extreme, another common problem.

Makes me wonder if I should switch.....

If by having 2 small problems, (to which Apple always gets a fix out or extends the guarantee) then maybe you should switch to a PC, then you will be able to see some real problems...I have had SOOOOO many :apple: devices with problems, all of which I have been given a solution by :apple: my actual MacBook Pro has extra cover for the faulty graphic card, (so far without any issues)

REAL CASE SITUATIONS.

In my place of work EVERYONE who has a DELL laptop has had to have their motherboard and/or hard-drive changed. (There was a joke, that maybe the company should make a table available for the Dell tech guy as he spend SOOOO much time there :p)

EVERYONE who has a HP ProBook has had to have the motherboard changed due to issues with the graphic card, and silly USB dock station not working..

Mac users (to which some are still using iMac G5's WITHOUT problems) the only major problems are USER problems.

Agreed that :apple: are NOT what they where, and although the quality is still high, customer care has taken a blow. (also there are higher sales volumes to take into account) etc. etc.

I fully understand your reasoning behind the changed. I actually made the changed (lasted 16 days) 5 different laptops, Vista ultimate, XP, even a beta of Windows 7, even bought a touch screen laptop...but sold the PC that I had kept for less than half it's retail price...and bought a MBP for 2300 euros. and even though my MBP has issues with the graphic card.. WOULD NOT TRY WINDOWS again in my life!!! those 16 days were the worst days of my life. driver hell, virus, malware. 30Gb of junk programs. crappy OS. hard drives not working due to Mac format. could not workout how to configure Time Capsule.. Air Tunes stopped working. had to reformat iPhone and iPods, due to Widows format. :apple: TV did not sync, El Gato TV did not work, Apple keyboard and Mouse not working (obvious reasons jejeej) no fiber optic output on the PC to connect to my stereo. VGA connection on PC and only have a TV and monitor with DVI. the list of problems goes on.

If you do switch take into account your :apple: inversion. :) ALLOT of things just to not work on a PC.


Good luck... (no sarcasm intended, just a opnion from someone who made the switch to PC from Mac)

p.s.

I have never owed a PC in my life!! so yes it was a big deal, and yes I was pisse* with Apple hence the change..

BUT!!! with all :apple:s negative things, they are STILL one of if not THE best computer maker in my eyes... :eek:
 
Wow, I just went to that website and clicked on the Derek Jeter shoe show. That's a great example of why I hate Flash. I know I have a slow connection, but it took over a minute to load and turned on all my fans on my laptop. The arrow from the mouse turns into a hand and is so laggy. How would you get that hand icon to work anyhow? How would you mouse over the shoe and then click the mouse button to grab hold and spin the shoe? How would you work that without mouse buttons?

Is this supposed to be a good site? Are these some sort of online advertising award winning experiences? This is exactly why I use click to flash. I simply don't have time to slog through this kind of site. That's 4 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I went there too... two things happened: 1. Flash Player used about 40% of my MacBook Pro CPU 2. The fans started spinning like crazy almost immediately, and it took them a long time to calm down. Just to display some graphics. Nicely done, but incredibly inefficient in terms of energy requirements.

Now just imagine what this would do to your iPhone. This site is a good reason why Flash has to be replaced by something much more efficient.
 
First of all SJ said nothing new in his letter - it is just same old bullcrap he's been publicly talking about for quite some time...

2nd, not only that SJ is major bullcraper but he is blatant LIER and hypocrite too.

1.- Openness: Flash is a proprietary product, making it a closed system. While Apple also offers proprietary products, it believes that all web standards should be open. Jobs points to Apple's support of open standards such HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, as well as its own contributions to open source projects such as WebKit.

I believe he never heard of Flex which is as open as open can be... Next to this, how dare he talking about "closed" platform when Apple software and genral business attitude is as closed as closed can be...


2. "The Full Web": One of Adobe's arguments is that a lack of Flash compatibility prevents Apple mobile devices from accessing "the full web" because 75% of video in that format. Jobs counters that almost all of this video is available in the more modern H.264 format and viewable on iPhone OS devices. He also points to the YouTube application and a list of other sources all offering video in iPhone-compatible formats. With respect to Flash-based games, Jobs concedes that the iPhone is unable to play them, but notes that there are over 50,000 game and entertainment titles on the App Store, many of which are free.

Full web is video and games!?!?!?! Errmm... Steve, there is bit more on the web than that. By the way - Adobe has demonstrated number of times in recent months how Flash video runs on mobile platforms!


3. Reliability, Security, and Performance: Jobs points to a Symantec study showing Flash having one of the worst security records last year and notes that Flash is the #1 reason Macs crash. While Apple has been working with Adobe to address these issues, the problems remain. Jobs also claims that Apple has yet to see Flash performing well on any mobile device, something it has repeatedly asked Adobe to demonstrate.

Another bullcrap... Adobe demonstrated Flash on mobile devices and while performance on desktops can be improved it is far from being as bad as he presents it... Perhaps trully working with Adobe and giving some APIs might help!? Perhaps...


4. Battery Life: Long battery life essentially requires hardware decoding of formats such as H.264, but most Flash website continue to use older decoders that must run in software, crippling battery life for mobile devices.


Another lie... Adobe proved that there is no major hit on battery life, and after all, why not let your customers decide and worry about it... When I play NOVA on iPod Touch (arguably one of the best games made for the device) my battery drains flat after about 1hr of usage. So frekn what!?!?! It is my decision to play NOVA and keep an eye on battery just like it would be to run Flash video or Flash app...


5. Touch: Interactive Flash content is mouse-driven and not easily compatible with Apple's touch-driven iPhone OS. Jobs argues that developers who need to rewrite their Flash websites to support touch anyway should look to more modern technologies like those supported by Apple.


Steve should have better things to worry about and he should let developers worry about how to solve this issue...


6. Flash as a Third-Party Development Tool: Jobs outlines Apple's arguments against allowing developers to create iPhone applications using Flash or other third-party development tools, citing sub-standard performance and a reliance on those third parties to adopt changes and improvements. Apple wants developers building directly on iPhone OS for the best experience possible.

LOL! So awesomee objective-c standard of various Fart Apps can't possibly be matched with Flash! Hahahahahaha!

90% of stuff on App store is nothing short of joke and "substandard" while it's been demonstrated numerous of times in recent months that Flash is more than capable of exporting decent apps for the device... In short - yet another lie...



In any case, thanks for this letter Steve - you just proved what many have suspected and already knew...

You are hypocrite, lier and above all draconian control freak who simply cant understand what "freedom of choice" for your customers means...


You won't see another penny from me and I am positive from many others too!

GG Steve :D
 
Flash is *not* an open standard.

I don't agree with Steve here. Flash is open standard. It's altogether different matter that Adobe is the only (if I am not mistaken) company that makes tools to create flash. Any one is free to create their own tool.

You can choose not to agree that Flash is proprietary but it won't make you anything but wrong. An open standard is something like HTML or CSS or Java where each vendor can create their own tools, they don't own the spec, they just build tools. That is *not* Flash.
 
I love Apple products but I don't think it is very responsible for a CEO (Jobs) to be so combative against another company in public, in front of consumers and the entire internet. keep this crap behind closed doors where it belongs, you know take the moral high ground.



( But I do hope Flash dies :D )
 
First of all SJ said nothing new in his letter - it is just same old bullcrap he's been publicly talking about for quite some time...

2nd, not only that SJ is major bullcraper but he is blatant LIER and hypocrite too.

1.- Openness: Flash is a proprietary product, making it a closed system. While Apple also offers proprietary products, it believes that all web standards should be open. Jobs points to Apple's support of open standards such HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, as well as its own contributions to open source projects such as WebKit.

I believe he never heard of Flex which is as open as open can be... Next to this, how dare he talking about "closed" platform when Apple software and genral business attitude is as closed as closed can be...


2. "The Full Web": One of Adobe's arguments is that a lack of Flash compatibility prevents Apple mobile devices from accessing "the full web" because 75% of video in that format. Jobs counters that almost all of this video is available in the more modern H.264 format and viewable on iPhone OS devices. He also points to the YouTube application and a list of other sources all offering video in iPhone-compatible formats. With respect to Flash-based games, Jobs concedes that the iPhone is unable to play them, but notes that there are over 50,000 game and entertainment titles on the App Store, many of which are free.

Full web is video and games!?!?!?! Errmm... Steve, there is bit more on the web than that. By the way - Adobe has demonstrated number of times in recent months how Flash video runs on mobile platforms!


3. Reliability, Security, and Performance: Jobs points to a Symantec study showing Flash having one of the worst security records last year and notes that Flash is the #1 reason Macs crash. While Apple has been working with Adobe to address these issues, the problems remain. Jobs also claims that Apple has yet to see Flash performing well on any mobile device, something it has repeatedly asked Adobe to demonstrate.

Another bullcrap... Adobe demonstrated Flash on mobile devices and while performance on desktops can be improved it is far from being as bad as he presents it... Perhaps trully working with Adobe and giving some APIs might help!? Perhaps...


4. Battery Life: Long battery life essentially requires hardware decoding of formats such as H.264, but most Flash website continue to use older decoders that must run in software, crippling battery life for mobile devices.


Another lie... Adobe proved that there is no major hit on battery life, and after all, why not let your customers decide and worry about it... When I play NOVA on iPod Touch (arguably one of the best games made for the device) my battery drains flat after about 1hr of usage. So frekn what!?!?! It is my decision to play NOVA and keep an eye on battery just like it would be to run Flash video or Flash app...


5. Touch: Interactive Flash content is mouse-driven and not easily compatible with Apple's touch-driven iPhone OS. Jobs argues that developers who need to rewrite their Flash websites to support touch anyway should look to more modern technologies like those supported by Apple.


Steve should have better things to worry about and he should let developers worry about how to solve this issue...


6. Flash as a Third-Party Development Tool: Jobs outlines Apple's arguments against allowing developers to create iPhone applications using Flash or other third-party development tools, citing sub-standard performance and a reliance on those third parties to adopt changes and improvements. Apple wants developers building directly on iPhone OS for the best experience possible.

LOL! So awesomee objective-c standard of various Fart Apps can't possibly be matched with Flash! Hahahahahaha!

90% of stuff on App store is nothing short of joke and "substandard" while it's been demonstrated numerous of times in recent months that Flash is more than capable of exporting decent apps for the device... In short - yet another lie...



In any case, thanks for this letter Steve - you just proved what many have suspected and already knew...

You are hypocrite, lier and above all draconian control freak who simply cant understand what "freedom of choice" for your customers means...


You won't see another penny from me and I am positive from many others too!

GG Steve :D

What does Flex (An application development framework) have to do with the fact that Apple either has to wait for Adoe to make a working mobile flash player or pay Adobe to make their own. Gnash would be more relevant except for its questionable legal status that Apple would never get away with using.
 
What does Flex (An application development framework) have to do with the fact that Apple either has to wait for Adoe to make a working mobile flash player or pay Adobe to make their own. Gnash would be more relevant except for its questionable legal status that Apple would never get away with using.

Listen...

It is YOUR choice whom you are going to believe and whit whom you are going to spend your money...

I have seen various Adobe demos and heard what they are saying - I have also heard what Steve says.

To me it is perfectly clear who is the "bad guy" here hence Steve won't get single penny again from me...

If you love Apple prison and limitations they are imposing on you, if you are hypnotised by Steve's hypocrisy and lies then by all means go and spend your money with them...

Cant care less quite frankly :)
 
I hate to sound like a fanboy, which I am not, but there sure was a lot of told in Jobs' letter.

Predictably, the haters are QQing over Jobs supposedly being a hypocrite for dissing Adobe's proprietary platform when Apple themselves have many proprietary platforms, but there's one HUGE point that everyone seems to be missing: Desktop Flash *would not work* with Apple's capacitive touch screens! So would you rather see
eg1l5e.jpg
or an embedded .swf animation that doesn't respond no matter how many times you poke at it?

I agree with Jobs' statement about Flash being a vestige of Web 1.0, back when it was called Macromedia Flash and I was using it in IE 4.0 on my 233 MHz Pentium III. :cool:

What we are experiencing now is the awkward transition period where the Internet is leaving the confines of desktop PCs and becoming truly ubiquitous. I'm viewing this more as a historically significant phase rather than something to scream and argue about on Internet forums. But that may just be me. :cool:
 
I hate to sound like a fanboy, which I am not, but there sure was a lot of told in Jobs' letter.

Predictably, the haters are QQing over Jobs supposedly being a hypocrite for dissing Adobe's proprietary platform when Apple themselves have many proprietary platforms, but there's one HUGE point that everyone seems to be missing: Desktop Flash *would not work* with Apple's capacitive touch screens! So would you rather see
eg1l5e.jpg
or an embedded .swf animation that doesn't respond no matter how many times you poke at it?

I agree with Jobs' statement about Flash being a vestige of Web 1.0, back when it was called Macromedia Flash and I was using it in IE 4.0 on my 233 MHz Pentium III. :cool:

What we are experiencing now is the awkward transition period where the Internet is leaving the confines of desktop PCs and becoming truly ubiquitous. I'm viewing this more as a historically significant phase rather than something to scream and argue about on Internet forums. But that may just be me. :cool:

You are right to certain extent...

But you are missing some MAJOR points of this letter...

1. He is not telling the truth

2. He is treating ALL his customers as fools by not allowing FREEDOM OF CHOICE

Simply let your customers DECIDE what they want to run on the device they paid for... Be that app, or some video, or some site...

FREEDOM!

Such simple and extremely important single frekn word that he is stumping all over for the sake of his own draconian gains...

THIS is the major point!
 
1. He is not telling the truth

Not saying he's being 100% honest either. Who is these days?

2. He is treating ALL his customers as fools by not allowing FREEDOM OF CHOICE

Flash won't work on the capacitive touch screens.

Simply let your customers DECIDE what they want to run on the device they paid for... Be that app, or some video, or some site...

Flash won't work on the capacitive touch screens.

FREEDOM!

Such simple and extremely important single frekn word that he is stumping all over for the sake of his own draconian gains...

Flash. Won't. Work. On. The. Capacitive. Touch. Screens.

Linux fanatic detected.
 
Not saying he's being 100% honest either. Who is these days?



Flash won't work on the capacitive touch screens.



Flash won't work on the capacitive touch screens.



Flash. Won't. Work. On. The. Capacitive. Touch. Screens.

Linux fanatic detected.


I think you are very uninformed :)

I suggest you search the net to view some demos how Flash INDEED works on touch screen devices!

Here are few links to get you started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_ia7q2-yuM&feature=player_embedded

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1792

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1781

http://theflashblog.com/?p=1758


Get informed man and realise that Steve LIES, LIES and then LIES some more!
 
Listen...

It is YOUR choice whom you are going to believe and whit whom you are going to spend your money...

I have seen various Adobe demos and heard what they are saying - I have also heard what Steve says.

To me it is perfectly clear who is the "bad guy" here hence Steve won't get single penny again from me...

If you love Apple prison and limitations they are imposing on you, if you are hypnotised by Steve's hypocrisy and lies then by all means go and spend your money with them...

Cant care less quite frankly :)

There's really no bad guy. There is really no point of using hyperboles such as evil and prisons. There are just two companies who are pursuing their own interests. I personally don't put a whole lot of stock into demos. Should Adobe deliver Flash on a mobile device that offers great battery life and a generally compelling experience, then Apple has something to be worried about.
 
There's really no bad guy. There is really no point of using hyperboles such as evil and prisons. There are just two companies who are pursuing their own interests. I personally don't put a whole lot of stock into demos. Should Adobe deliver Flash on a mobile device that offers great battery life and a generally compelling experience, then Apple has something to be worried about.

Oh yes there is a "bad guy"!

"Bad Guy", at least in my books, is person / company who is walking all over my freedom of choice for the sake of his / its own draconian gains.

"Bad Guy", again in my books, is someone who isn't telling the truth!

Both of the above are committed by SJ!
 
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