Steve Jobs Posts 'Thoughts on Flash' Open Letter

[Bytor65]

Lemme guess - you also don't want to pay for content either. Ad supported sites provide the content that you consume, the least you could do is give them the courtesy of counting you in as an ad impression, even if you don't click-thru. Do you also use cracked software?

Do you equate not watching TV commercials with thievery as well? I buy software/Blu Rays/Games...

But annoying advertising. Sorry, my house my rules. Annoy me and I block it. Every Flash Ad I have seen has been a major annoyance, so I just block flash.

You can do clean tasteful advertising and still make money. Google rose to domination on clean unobtrusive text ads(I see a nice tasteful/useful one at the bottom of this page) while everyone was hammering pop ups/flash garbage. But that didn't last, Google bought Doubleclick that serves flash ads.

I have been viewing the internet with Flash OFF or Blocked practically since Flash ads started appearing. This is so important that it drives my browser choice. I used Opera before Firefox received effective blocking, and Chrome doesn't have effective flash blocking, so it is on hold. I also surf with gif/png animations off as well. Chrome doesn't have a setting for this either.

Basically when I load a page, it should do nothing. Nothing should move until I want it to.

Whenever I use a browser, I am shocked what an annoying mess the unfiltered net is. If it is a friend/relative, the first thing I do is point out that I can install a flash blocker and make 98% of the crap go away.

I am shocked that anyone but the tech illiterate would subject themselves to this crap when it is so easily shut down.

Use flashblock and see how much better the net can be.

 

[jajohns8]

Do you equate not watching TV commercials with thievery as well? I buy software/Blu Rays/Games...

But annoying advertising. Sorry, my house my rules. Annoy me and I block it. Every Flash Ad I have seen has been a major annoyance, so I just block flash.

You can do clean tasteful advertising and still make money. Google rose to domination on clean unobtrusive text ads(I see a nice tasteful/useful one at the bottom of this page) while everyone was hammering pop ups/flash garbage. But that didn't last, Google bought Doubleclick that serves flash ads.

I have been viewing the internet with Flash OFF or Blocked practically since Flash ads started appearing. This is so important that it drives my browser choice. I used Opera before Firefox received effective blocking, and Chrome doesn't have effective flash blocking, so it is on hold. I also surf with gif/png animations off as well. Chrome doesn't have a setting for this either.

Basically when I load a page, it should do nothing. Nothing should move until I want it to.

Whenever I use a browser, I am shocked what an annoying mess the unfiltered net is. If it is a friend/relative, the first thing I do is point out that I can install a flash blocker and make 98% of the crap go away.

I am shocked that anyone but the tech illiterate would subject themselves to this crap when it is so easily shut down.

Use flashblock and see how much better the net can be.

So when the annoying ads are developed in HTML 5, I am guessing you'll block those too?

 

[PeterQVenkman]

That was nothing but a freetard rant. And gruber did respond.

If John Sullivan of the Free Software Foundation is a "freetard", then John Gruber is little more than a prostitute for Apple.

As for Guber's response:

Jobs never said H.264 was a “free” standard. He said it was an open standard. Not all open standards are free.

Sullivan is more or less arguing the FSF party line, that both Apple and Adobe are unethical because both are promoting things that aren’t free-as-in-freedom. That’s great. So what mobile phone should an FSF devotee buy? Good luck with that.

Of course Gruber chooses only pieces of lines to make his arguments seem well thought out. Here's a sample of what he left out.

The fact that H.264 is a commonly used standard does not make it a free standard—the terms of its use are what matter, and they require all licensed software to include the following notice:

THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED UNDER THE AVC PATENT PORTFOLIO LICENSE FOR THE PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE OF A CONSUMER TO (I) ENCODE VIDEO IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE AVC STANDARD ("AVC VIDEO") AND/OR (II) DECODE AVC VIDEO THAT WAS ENCODED BY A CONSUMER ENGAGED IN A PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND/OR WAS OBTAINED FROM A VIDEO PROVIDER LICENSED TO PROVIDE AVC VIDEO. NO LICENSE IS GRANTED OR SHALL BE IMPLIED FOR ANY OTHER USE. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION MAY BE OBTAINED FROM MPEG LA, L.L.C. SEE HTTP://WWW.MPEGLA.COM

You'll find similar language in the license agreements of Final Cut Studio, Google Chrome, Mac OS X, and Windows 7.

Any Web that can be engaged only after agreeing to such terms, whether for software or a standard, is not "free" or "open." It is gated, and its use is restricted. Jobs himself explains the problems with giving up the freedom to use your computer and its software to another, when he says, "[Apple] cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers."

Gruber's quote refutes nothing, just challenges people to find an alternative, gloating about the lack of choice consumers have. What a douche.

It reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer finally exposes the fact that "Bill Clinton" and "Bob Dole" are exposed as being Kodos and Kang, they say: "It's true, we are aliens, but what are you going to do about it? It's a two party system. You'll have to vote for one of us!"

 

[jajohns8]

Check it out, instead of all those ads developed in Flash, you can use iAd (with html5/whatever) and pay Apple a million bucks....

But hey, it's not about the money, right?

 

[zweigand]

If John Sullivan of the Free Software Foundation is a "freetard", then John Gruber is little more than a prostitute for Apple.

As for Guber's response:

Of course Gruber chooses only pieces of lines to make his arguments seem well thought out. Here's a sample of what he left out.

Gruber's quote refutes nothing, just challenges people to find an alternative, gloating about the lack of choice consumers have. What a douche.

It reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer finally exposes the fact that "Bill Clinton" and "Bob Dole" are exposed as being Kodos and Kang, they say: "It's true, we are aliens, but what are you going to do about it? It's a two party system. You'll have to vote for one of us!"

"Free" is not always the answer. h.264 is clearly superior to any current alternative out there, and it is already being used for 60% of internet video today. Ogg is NOT the answer, it is inferior in almost every aspect and is not hardware accelerated. Google may have future plans for their VP8 codec, but I have a feeling that is more of a fallback plan in case people try to abuse the patents in h.264 in 2016. Microsoft is putting its weight behind h.264 exclusively as well.

h.264 is the answer for now, period.

Gruber's point is that there is no company producing a completely open/free device. Chastising people for buying into Apple's ecosystem without offering them an alternative is plain stupid.

 

[Bytor65]

So when the annoying ads are developed in HTML 5, I am guessing you'll block those too?

Yes, One way or another.

 

[Bytor65]

Ugh, Double post...

 

[jajohns8]

Yes, One way or another.

Just want to make sure people are aware that Flash is used for more than creating "annoying ads." And, just because Flash goes away, doesn't mean "annoying ads" will go away.

 

[barneyhanway]

And, just because Flash goes away, doesn't mean "annoying ads" will go away.

Truth.

Fact is, despite the sensible amongst us who block them, those "annoying ads" are what pays for the internet. You know, all those sites where you get your free news? If not for those ads they'd be behind paywalls. Like they used to be. Like Rupert Murdoch would have them again if he thought for one second every other big news provider would follow suit.

Flash was _the_ enabling technology for rich advertising and the advertisers lapped it up. But check out all the major news apps on the ipad - annoying animated ads aren't going anywhere. BTW how do I block them on the ipad, anyone?

 

[edenwaith]

Adobe, Microsoft, and Cocoa

All of Office:Mac 2011 will be Cocoa, even Outlook. In private beta now, shipping this Fall.

That verified my point that the Office suite isn't 100% Cocoa yet, so this probably makes Microsoft the last major third party to fully adopt Cocoa. I occasionally use Office 2008 and there are a couple of things here and there which display that it isn't using Cocoa, such as no live resizing of windows, or you can't scroll a window if it isn't the active window (which was a new feature introduced with Leopard).

I've briefly played with the PS CS5 demo, but it doesn't feel too different from earlier versions I've worked with, so I guess that is to Adobe's credit for keeping things consistent.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Flash WORKS on touch based devices!

Since this will never end up on 2nd page news yet alone on the 1st one here is rather awesome link (which includes video demonstration) of Flash working fine on touch based devices (even without rewrite!)

http://theflashblog.com/?p=2027

To me it also proves few other things related to Mr.SJ and his recent open letter

Enjoy!

 

[maflynn]

To me it also proves few other things related to Mr.SJ and his recent open letter

What does it prove? It shows flash working very well on a touchbased computer, it contradicts Job's open letter regarding usability of flash

 

[eawmp1]

Running on a Windows laptop:

Doesn't address the sucky performance in MacOS
Show me performance/battery life on a handheld mobile device and we can "in yo face" Jobs

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

What does it prove? It shows flash working very well on a touchbased computer, it contradicts Job's open letter regarding usability of flash

Exactly the point I am trying to make

"Flash is past and it was designed for PCs with keyboard and mouse"

Jobs is liar...

 

[rhett7660]

Well at the time of the letter flash was not working on any mobile/handheld device. So how does that make him a liar? Please tell us how the fact after he wrote the letter this makes him a liar? All ears... also would love to see this maybe on a Mac OS device!

 

[KnightWRX]

Well at the time of the letter flash was not working on any mobile/handheld device. So how does that make him a liar? Please tell us how the fact after he wrote the letter this makes him a liar? All ears... also would love to see this maybe on a Mac OS device!

When he did write the letter, Flash demos on running on Android phones were already out there.

That's what makes him a liar.

And seriously, the battery issue. Drop it people. As soon as the iPhone uses the GPU to do any kind of graphics, the battery is getting drained like there's no tomorrow. Just playing a simple 2D game like Settlers of Catan on a iPod Touch drains the battery at the rate of 10% per 20 minutes.

 

[eawmp1]

When he did write the letter, Flash demos on running on Android phones were already out there.

That's what makes him a liar.

And seriously, the battery issue. Drop it people. As soon as the iPhone uses the GPU to do any kind of graphics, the battery is getting drained like there's no tomorrow. Just playing a simple 2D game like Settlers of Catan on a iPod Touch drains the battery at the rate of 10% per 20 minutes.

Perhaps you should Jobs' letter again:

In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it. Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of 2009, then the first half of 2010, and now they say the second half of 2010. We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath. Who knows how it will perform?

If you are going to refer to a statement, don't inaccurately paraphrase it. Leave that to Fox News.

 

[Kahnyl]

I've seen everything. A guy with Flash Forever in his sig. Good god.

What's next, "Viva la Java!!!!"?

 

[KnightWRX]

Perhaps you should Jobs' letter again:



If you are going to refer to a statement, don't inaccurately paraphrase it. Leave that to Fox News.

Except Flash 10.1 demos on Android run, and run well. That statement is a blatant lie. That it is not shipping is not an issue, it will eventually. The fact is Adobe had also found a way to make it work on iPhone, with no intervention from Apple, and Apple used a political block.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if the limitation was technical. It's not. It's all Apple right now. It's a good thing other phone makers aren't blocking Adobe while implementing HTML5. There's nothing wrong with offering your consumer choices, especially if it requires 0 effort on your part.

 

[SwiftLives]

Except Flash 10.1 demos on Android run, and run well. That statement is a blatant lie. That it is not shipping is not an issue, it will eventually. The fact is Adobe had also found a way to make it work on iPhone, with no intervention from Apple, and Apple used a political block.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if the limitation was technical. It's not. It's all Apple right now. It's a good thing other phone makers aren't blocking Adobe while implementing HTML5. There's nothing wrong with offering your consumer choices, especially if it requires 0 effort on your part.

Perhaps we have different interpretations of the word "well".

And the issue is that Flash is so power hungry that it allegedly significantly decreases battery life. I'm curious to know how long the Android's battery lasts when running a flash video vs via HTML5. Any data on that yet?

Apple wants to control their user experience. I personally don't miss or need flash on my mobile devices.

 

[KnightWRX]

And the issue is that Flash is so power hungry that it allegedly significantly decreases battery life.

Again, stop this. OpenGL is also power hungry. So is Quartz. Damn games on iPod Touch drain the battery like there's no tomorrow.

If you don't want it draining your battery, don't launch the app.

This argument is so played out it's not even funny. It's hypocritical to claim Flash is battery hungry and that is the reason for the rejection but then ignore that every other graphic game on the platform renders your battery useless.

I feel a sudden need to quote my post, from about 4 posts above yours...

And seriously, the battery issue. Drop it people. As soon as the iPhone uses the GPU to do any kind of graphics, the battery is getting drained like there's no tomorrow. Just playing a simple 2D game like Settlers of Catan on a iPod Touch drains the battery at the rate of 10% per 20 minutes.

 

[Winni]

I've seen everything. A guy with Flash Forever in his sig. Good god.

What's next, "Viva la Java!!!!"?

No matter what you want to believe, but Java is one of the most widely used programming languages ever and it hasn't lost a single bit of its popularity. And with the growing popularity of the Android and Kindle platforms (which both use Java as their default programming language), the importance of Java will only increase in the years to come.

Apple wants to control their user experience.

Do you honestly believe that? Apple wants to control the developers and make sure that they do not use cross platforms tool that make it easy to port an application from the iPhone OS to - gasp! - Android or Windows Mobile or whatever else is available on the market. Apple plain and simple wants to lock-in developers to their niche platform.

 

[ataboc]

i had to chuckle while reading the letter.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Do you honestly believe that?

Yet none of you guys show proof.

---

I'm sorry to the guys that run these forums, but its become so boring. The arguments are predictable, ON BOTH SIDES. They lead to nowhere, yet most of the arguments are just plain wrong or up to personal opinion. (On both sides)

 

[SAPPete]

And seriously, the battery issue. Drop it people. As soon as the iPhone uses the GPU to do any kind of graphics, the battery is getting drained like there's no tomorrow. Just playing a simple 2D game like Settlers of Catan on a iPod Touch drains the battery at the rate of 10% per 20 minutes.

QFT. I can't believe Steve didn't publish a "Thoughts on Scrabble" letter and ban it yet. It eats battery on my iPhone like nobody's business.