Steve Jobs Suggests Blu-ray Not Coming to Mac Anytime Soon

[AidenShaw]

Believe it...

I doubt that it downconverts protected content to 1080i. I would expect it to go even lower. I even have a hard time believing that it will output 720p.

1. 1080/24p over HDMI (upper left overlay is "info" from TV showing input and video format)
2. BD player "Select component output" menu
3. BD player confirmation that 1080i over component is selected
4. Movie playing in 1080i on Component 1 input

 

[glashoppah]

Reality check for all the "physical media is dead" people.

NPD: Connected-Device Use Still a Novelty

Despite a surge in consumer electronics products enabling access to entertainment and related content from the Internet, consumer adoption remains in its infancy, according to a new report.

The NPD Group found that 75% of U.S. consumers (age 13 and older) did not connect or download content in the previous three months, while 15% connected and downloaded content via PC or Mac computer; 6% connected with a video-game player; 4% connected via smartphone; and 2% connected via a Blu-ray Disc player or a digital video player, like Apple TV or Roku.

“What we learned in our research is that while some people already experience the world in a connected way, most do not,” said Russ Crupnick, VP and senior entertainment analyst for NPD.

It's easy when you live in a populated area and are gifted with the latest broadband offering from your ISP to begin to believe that everyone on Earth has the same thing available to them. But a bit of research will reveal that very few people have it - most of the world is still on dialup.

Even those that do have some form of "broadband" will find out with a bit more research that a lot of the bandwidth they think they have isn't "real", that is, they'll never see that full bandwidth from more than a tiny handful of sources, and then only at particular times. "The Internet" isn't some huge barrel of infinite bandwidth into which you simply plug your local loop and get whatever the loop speed is. "The Internet" is a great big messy pile of interconnections. It makes no difference at all that your local loop speed is marketed to you at "30Mbits/sec" if the content provider you're surfing has a T1 uplink. And your "30Mbits/sec" is also worthless if your content provider is across the Pacific. No NAP-NAP link provider with any brains is going to let you and 10,000 of your neighbors swamp his extremely expensive sub-oceanic fiber watching "Friends" re-runs. If you're seeing high bandwidth from such providers, it's almost certainly locally cached by your ISP, which is how ISPs can provide you with your "30Mbits/sec" link with a straight face in the first place.

If you find this hard to grasp, look at it from the content provider's point of view: how many video streams at xMbits/sec can you support with your expensive links (which have to be duplicated among multiple providers)? It doesn't take many potential customers to realize that saying stuff like "Everyone in Japan has fiber and 100Mbits/sec!" is meaningless.

This is why stuff like Blu-ray is going to be around for a long, long time.

G.

 

[cube]

1. 1080/24p over HDMI (upper left overlay is "info" from TV showing input and video format)
2. BD player "Select component output" menu
3. BD player confirmation that 1080i over component is selected
4. Movie playing in 1080i on Component 1 input

You're getting lucky that movies are not activating the Image Constraint Token.

 

[AidenShaw]

You're getting lucky that movies are not activating the Image Constraint Token.

No "luck" to it really - in fact in order to take those pictures I had to run a component cable from my BD player to the TV - almost all video in my theatre runs on HDMI though a 6x2 crossbar switch (the exception is a link over Cat6 to the kitchen TV).

People worrying about HD over component should start saving for a new TV - according to this article after 2013 BD players with analog outputs won't be permitted.

 

[Berlepsch]

In a year from now I will be laughing harder at you than I'm laughing now. And that will be some trick.

I can imagine that. Those strait jackets must make breathing really hard.

But let's keep this polite small talk to a minimum. You really have nothing to counter my argument, do you?

 

[Peace]

Mod Note​

Hey kids. Let's keep the personal stuff away ok ?

Any more posts attacking others will result in bad mojo.

M'Kay ?

 

[-hh]

You're getting lucky that movies are not activating the Image Constraint Token.

When one reads up on the provisions of the Analog Sunset that start to kick in <3 months from now, it illustrates the recurring implimentation headaches due to the anti-consumer DRM factors imposed by the IP-owning Studios. Unfortunately, the Studios apparently don't care one whit as to just how unfriendly they are to the legal consumer, including how their changes will break consumer's stuff ... particularly for those early adopters who paid top dollar and who used pre-HDMI component for signal distribution.

If only there was a clever catchphrase to describe this situation that the consumer is being put in ... perhaps something like "Bag of Hurt"?

Thus, considering the fact that it is the Studios that are the ultimate source of the DRM issues, I find it a mystery as to why all of this anger has been redirected at Apple for their reactionary decisions to the business environment that has been forced upon them.

Yes, it is true that Apple made a stand against being steamrolled over.

And yes, it is true that we here don't personally know if Apple's stand was altruistic and pure, or cynical and self-serving.

But ... does it really matter why Apple did what they did?

Afterall, consider the alternative: Apple rolled over and gave us BD.

Okay, we would have BD ... and just BD playback on some select devices (TBD). Probably nothing more, such as iTunes transferability to other playback devices (ie, iPad, iPhone, etc). Thus, for our "win" what did we lose out on in terms of our value-added consumer factors in the larger and longer term picture?

Without someone somewhere bucking the system, the system ain't going to change.

Seems to me that if people got what they say they wanted from Apple, it would have resulted in a "Winning this battle causes the War to be lost" paradox.

-hh

--
No, I'm not affiliated with Apple. Nor am I (anymore) affiliated with any Studio, either. Ditto Microsoft, Dell, HP, etc: I am also fully divested of individual stockholdings in all of these areas. In interest of adequate disclosure, my interests lie in technology areas other than classical consumer or business IT or entertainment media industries, and if they ever touch MR, I will promptly disclose and/or recuse myself.

 

[DoFoT9]

People worrying about HD over component should start saving for a new TV - according to this article after 2013 BD players with analog outputs won't be permitted.

depressing, as digital audio isnt as high a quality - if you get what i mean.

 

[AidenShaw]

When one reads up on the provisions of the Analog Sunset that start to kick in <3 months from now....

So you did follow the link I posted to AudioHolics....

Another viewpoint is that Apple is the company most at risk of "winning the battle and losing the war" here, as more and more people realize that there's no legal path to quality 1080p consumer media that uses Apple hardware.

Besides, I thought that most Apple fans are against obsolete legacy interfaces - and component video is certainly the "floppy drive" of the HD video era.

... I find it a mystery as to why all of this anger has been redirected at Apple for their reactionary decisions to the business environment that has been forced upon them.

depressing, as digital audio isnt as high a quality - if you get what i mean.

There is no analog audio on CDs, DVDs, or BDs - so no, I don't get what you mean. (...and the link was discussing analog video outputs, not audio)

 

[Peace]

And right after I asked people to refrain.

From the forum rules :

Insults. Direct personal insult of another forum member (e.g., "You are an idiot.") and other name-calling. Why? Because this isn't grade school. People should be able to discuss or even dispute other's posts without insulting people. You may dispute somebody's opinion but not attack/flame the person who stated it. There are a lot of other non-direct-personal insults that won't necessary get you banned instantly, but depending on the context/nature may lead to post editing, post deletion, warnings, or time-outs. They include telling people to shut up and being extremely or repeatedly rude or sarcastic. Bottom line -- don't try to tick off others and don't make discussions unnecessarily personal. If somebody else insults you, report their post; their post does not give you a license to break the rules by returning their insults. Although we do not read Private Messages sent between forum members, the rules for appropriate and inappropriate content apply to them as well.

This is the last chance before I close this thread and start giving infractions.

 

[DoFoT9]

There is no analog audio on CDs, DVDs, or BDs - so no, I don't get what you mean. (...and the link was discussing analog video outputs, not audio)

durrr. ignore me. video. durr

umm but anyway, IF it were video, would that eliminate the ability to use analogue stereos? i.e that REQUIRE DTS or something?

 

[AidenShaw]

durrr. ignore me. video. durr

umm but anyway, IF it were video, would that eliminate the ability to use analogue stereos? i.e that REQUIRE DTS or something?

BD players have analog audio output, going back to my Sony's back panel:

(click for larger image)

Group 3 is standard left-right analog stereo with RCA jacks.

Group 4 is 7.1 sound - you'd connect 2.1 through 7.1 analog channels here (the ".1" is sub-woofer - if you had stereo with a separate subwoofer channel you'd use left-right front + subwoofer).

If all you want is analog audio, read no further.

Group 8 is low bandwidth compressed digital audio (same signal on either TOSLINK optical or RCA copper). If your audio receiver/amplifier has lossy compressed Dolby or DTS digital decoders, you can pass the combined bitstream to the amplifier to split.
______

With a modern higher end (or probably "not bottom end" is more accurate) AV receiver, you can connect the HDMI to your receiver and the BD player will pass the appropriate raw digital bitstream to the receiver for decoding. One reason to choose this path is that higher end receivers likely have better audio processing circuits than typical BD players.

High end AV receivers often have better video processing as well. The only connection from my BD player is HDMI, and BD player sends raw (decrypted, but raw) data to the receiver. The receiver converts the audio stream from whatever format to 6.1 surround, and has dual Faroudja chips to process the video stream as needed. When I play a DVD, the BD player sends the 480 signal to the receiver - the receiver upconverts to 1080p, and sends it on one of the HDMI outputs to the TV.

The advantage to letting the receiver do the processing is that you can buy one set of good upconverters, and not worry if your BD player or your TV have mediocre video/audio converters.

 

[MorphingDragon]

First - that's a red herring. A high bitrate BD video downconverted to 720p will look much better than a low bitrate 720p download (or typical satellite/cable signals). So, connecting a BD player to a 720p TV over HDMI has an advantage over most 720p sources (only OTA would come close).

Second, Best Buy has 56 TVs in the $250-$499 bracket - 11 of these are 1080p. They have two 1080p TVs (22" and 24") for $249. That's 13 1080p TVs under $500. In the $500-$749 bracket, 29 are 1080p and 7 are 720p (5 of the 7 are plasmas, the 2 LCD 720p TVs are $550 and $600).

It's easy to find cheap TVs with HDMI (even 1080p ones), and by the time you get to the $500 price point the number of 720p offferings rapidly dwindles.

I live in New Zealand.

$500 will get you this lovely 1366x768 "HD Ready" TV
http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/4cad1b7a042e17f8273fc0a87f3b06bf/Product/View/GE6041

Though $500NZD is $350 USD. There's about 4 <= $350 @ 1080P TVs (On the best buy website) and they're all "BestBuy Exclusive" brands.

 

[DoFoT9]

BD players have analog audio output, going back to my Sony's back panel:

*nice explanation*

The advantage to letting the receiver do the processing is that you can buy one set of good upconverters, and not worry if your BD player or your TV have mediocre video/audio converters.

my god. i am going insane. i meant audio - not video. glad you picked up on it, thanks.

 

[xbjllb]

Ive added my input into this thread months ago.
I'm surprised that this topic is still ongoing
Anyone at Apple reading in on these?

Unfortunately and evidently not. Truth isn't so popular at Apple HQ these days. Not yet like Berlin April 1945, but it will get there inevitably.

It's easy when you live in a populated area and are gifted with the latest broadband offering from your ISP to begin to believe that everyone on Earth has the same thing available to them. But a bit of research will reveal that very few people have it - most of the world is still on dialup.

Even those that do have some form of "broadband" will find out with a bit more research that a lot of the bandwidth they think they have isn't "real", that is, they'll never see that full bandwidth from more than a tiny handful of sources, and then only at particular times. "The Internet" isn't some huge barrel of infinite bandwidth into which you simply plug your local loop and get whatever the loop speed is. "The Internet" is a great big messy pile of interconnections. It makes no difference at all that your local loop speed is marketed to you at "30Mbits/sec" if the content provider you're surfing has a T1 uplink. And your "30Mbits/sec" is also worthless if your content provider is across the Pacific. No NAP-NAP link provider with any brains is going to let you and 10,000 of your neighbors swamp his extremely expensive sub-oceanic fiber watching "Friends" re-runs. If you're seeing high bandwidth from such providers, it's almost certainly locally cached by your ISP, which is how ISPs can provide you with your "30Mbits/sec" link with a straight face in the first place.

If you find this hard to grasp, look at it from the content provider's point of view: how many video streams at xMbits/sec can you support with your expensive links (which have to be duplicated among multiple providers)? It doesn't take many potential customers to realize that saying stuff like "Everyone in Japan has fiber and 100Mbits/sec!" is meaningless.

This is why stuff like Blu-ray is going to be around for a long, long time.

G.

Thank you very much!

I can imagine that. Those strait jackets must make breathing really hard.

But let's keep this polite small talk to a minimum. You really have nothing to counter my argument, do you?

Already done, but I'll do it again despite the direct insult (see peace's post earlier).

THE ECONOMY IS CRASHING. THERE IS NO RECOVERY UNTIL JOBS IN THE US RECOVER.

INTERNET INFRASTRUCTURE WILL STAGNATE FOR AT LEAST A DECADE, and when those higher speeds actually do appear?

YOU won't be able to afford them.

It would be wise to COUNT ON IT.

 

[Crunch]

Why don't those of you who want a Bluray player and/or burner just buy one and hook it up to your Mac? OS X doesn't need to support the format. There is something called third-party software that will and Bluray does work very well on this gorgeous screen. I watch one every day.

I wish they'd make the DVD SuperDrive optional, because I don't want it.

In fact, I don't want any optical drive. Thanks to a member on here, I will be ripping out the wasted SATA cable out of my SuperDrive and put it to work on something useful.

Glad I could help end an 85-page thread about this non-sensical back and forth.

 

[AidenShaw]

Why don't those of you who want a Bluray player and/or burner just buy one and hook it up to your Mac?

That's not too practical at the airport, in the plane, at Starbucks, in the hotel, or anywhere else where you'd want mobility.

 

[-hh]

Ive added my input into this thread months ago.
I'm surprised that this topic is still ongoing
Anyone at Apple reading in on these?

I don't see why not.

However, just because there's someone reading (and perhaps even posting) doesn't mean that we are somehow entitled to know of their presence.

The question to ask is: "To have a formally recognized Apple Spokesman on MR, would the tangible benefits to Apple outweigh its drawbacks?".

IMO, the answer is No: the underlying angst of some of the posters on this topic is such that they wouldn't be satisfied if some poster did stand up as an official Apple Representative, because they would then immediately (and naïvely) make a demand of the Rep for nothing less than to be privy to all of the relevant Privileged Information details that underly this business decision.

Since that won't happen, we'll then suffer through more venom and flames about why the Rep (and Apple) is such a evil person (even though they're not), in the form of YA public illustration of personal shortcomings such as last month's "'Dear Steve Jobs' - An Open Letter From the Girl You Dissed..." .

I've previously suggested for those who feel so strongly about BD to simply stop whining here and put their energy into developing a business case and go raise the capital to make Apple a proposal that they simply can't ignore. Given Apple's current financials, I'd not be surprised if would take an offer of around $10B on the table to start to get their attention...


-hh

 

[linux2mac]

THE ECONOMY IS CRASHING. THERE IS NO RECOVERY UNTIL JOBS IN THE US RECOVER.

Apparently not affecting iPad sales.

iPad adoption rate fastest in electronics product history
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...te-fastest-in-electronics-product-history.ars

 

[cube]

Why don't those of you who want a Bluray player and/or burner just buy one and hook it up to your Mac? OS X doesn't need to support the format. There is something called third-party software that will and Bluray does work very well on this gorgeous screen. I watch one every day.

I wish they'd make the DVD SuperDrive optional, because I don't want it.

In fact, I don't want any optical drive. Thanks to a member on here, I will be ripping out the wasted SATA cable out of my SuperDrive and put it to work on something useful.

Glad I could help end an 85-page thread about this non-sensical back and forth.

The whole point is that there is no third-party software for proper Bluray playback.

 

[glashoppah]

Except that you've failed to explain reality. Specifically, why the Studios have stopped embracing BD as the sole path forward and have changed direction by developing 3-way combo packs of {BD + DVD + DC (Digital Copy)} ... and not only that, but they are actively selling & marketing their IP wares at often surprisingly aggressive price points.

Sure, one could be tempted to suggest that its simple greed for profits...except that the price points don't support this: looking at the contemporary example of Alice in Wonderland on Amazon, we find that the studios areare only able to command a literal one buck ($1) price increase in the marketplace (from $25.99 to $26.99), despite them having to incur the additional expenses of tripling the number of physical disks in the retail box from one to three.

The bottom line is that real world actions trump mere words being posted on MR, and here, the real world is that these IP owners are making business decisions that risks their own IP and they're doing so with their own wallet and revenue stream...and what they're doing is not just a silo of Blue Ray.

Thus, what you've failed to address is why we should ignore the fact that these real world Stakeholders are hedging their bets with their own wallets, IP, and revenue stream, into the alternatives to BD.


-hh

An alternate explanation for the multi-pack deliver is that DVD was so popular that there are a bazillion DVD drives still around, so studios can't ignore them, Blu-ray is the emerging high-end format, so studios can't ignore it, and some ubergeeks want a portable digital copy, and since the DVD and portable copy cost them a negligible amount over the production costs of the packaging and creation of the Blu-ray disc they throw them in to cover all the bases. It would cost them a heck of a lot more to package Blu-ray and DVD separately - outside of content licensing, packaging is probably 90% of the cost of hard media distribution. DVDs are probably under a penny a piece for them. Why not drop one in every Blu-ray box? In fact, I bet this is great for them because they can nail folks that don't own Blu-ray players for a higher price than they could charge for the DVD alone by talking up the value-add of the Blu-ray disc inside.

G.

 

[xbjllb]

Apparently not affecting iPad sales.

iPad adoption rate fastest in electronics product history

Whole lotta people sold plenty of penny candy and bubble gum during the Great Depression.

iPad is merely the highend of Apple's cheap overpriced iToy division.

A mere year or two away from being killed by the competition.

Watch.

 

[cheesymogul]

That's how the BluRay problem will be solved:

- Microsoft buys Adobe.
- Sooner than later MS-Adobe drops their Mac support (they will create a few successful iOS apps though).
- The remaining Apple creative professionals are thus forced to switch to Windows.
- Apple does nothing to prevent that, because they don't care about creative pros anymore. In fact, they will be relieved they got rid off their most demanding but least profitable customers so easily. No more whining about complicated and expensive stuff like BD and 1080p, nor missing ugly ports that would destroy the "Apple look".
- With iOS steadily growing market share Apple also starts losing interest in OSX and eventually drops it to concentrate all efforts into iOS, iGadgets and iFashion as well as providing convenient mediocre quality iContent for the masses. Because that's where the big money lies.
- Microsoft leaves the consumer market and dominates the dwindling desktop and high-end computing niche. By then Windows will be only OS number three behind iOS and Android.

 

[iEdd]

Ridiculous scenario; Apple will have to do a LOT to piss me (and many other users) off enough to switch to Windows.

The lack of Blu-Ray is frustrating, but it's nowhere near a deal-breaker for, well, almost anyone.

Also, think about what you're saying. The only development environment for iOS is Xcode for Mac. There's no way Apple are going to kill off their desktop OS and let all their iOS development be run on Windows.

xjibgjhkjhkjhkjhadf's crazy theory on Apple dying in a couple of years is at least more consistent in that respect...

 

[durawraps]

bluray is history. movie streaming is the future.