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That's great - for you. But what about those of us who would like to play our music on a SqueezeBox? Or Sonos player? Or car stereo? Etc. So long as Apple makes the products one needs, everything's peachy. But as soon as you want something NOT made by Apple, you're in trouble. This is the problem with DRM.

-Rob

Sorry to quote you a second time Rob but I went to Sonos website (https://sonos.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...nMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1)

And found this little tidbit. So you can play DRM music from iTunes on Sonos. And interestingly enough, you have exactly the same issue with Rhapsody and Sonos as you do with iTunes.

Here's the quoted text:


PlaysForSure
Sonos currently supports online purchased music encoded with PlaysForSure Digital Rights Management (DRM). Please click here for more information.

FairPlay - iTunes purchased music
The Sonos Digital Music System is not able to play music purchased from the iTunes music store because the tracks are protected by a Digital Rights Management (DRM) scheme called FairPlay. Apple has chosen not to license the ability to play its FairPlay tracks to anyone (including Sonos).
There are two possible solutions that will allow you to play your iTunes or Rhapsody purchased music through Sonos:
You can connect the line-out on your PC to the line-in on a ZonePlayer. This will allow the input to be streamed to your other ZonePlayers.

You can 'burn' the music to a CD and then 'rip' it back to your computer. This will remove the DRM protection, but it will also remove your metadata/tag information (artist name, track, etc), so you will manually have to re-tag the music.
Rhapsody
Sonos currently supports the Rhapsody digital music subscription service. You must have a valid Rhapsody account and Internet access to stream music through the Sonos Digital Music System. Sonos does not currently support music purchased from Rhapsody unless it is also available as a stream through Rhapsody. This is due to Rhapsody's own DRM scheme called RealAudio Helix.

I suspect the same solution would apply to the Squeezebox.
 
How do you know which songs to pirate? You should be able to apply the same searching technique to iTunes.

You pirate everything.;)
Get a giant list going based on all your friends' libraries and everything that comes up with a google search by genre.

iTunes will also suggest music for you based on music you've purchased in the past, but of course, this only works if you purchase your music. ;)

The suggestions are as bad as the radio.;) :D

You'd possibly have an argument if AOL charged for their memberships. ;)

Unless you just want everyone from AOL to DIAF. :D

If it's good enough to steal it's good enough to pay for. ...And if you don't pay for it you're not entitled to own it.

No. Because w/o iTunes you can't only buy one song. And one or two cool songs is NEVER going to be worth $15. ;)
This is what the record companies realized with the iTunes model.
Do you remember when they were saying profits are falling because people only pay $1 instead of $15 per album debut?

Also, I find that I, like most musicians and music appreciatists(?:p ), have an international taste in music and it is exceedingly retarded to get the songs I want. That's not my fault.
 
They might as well do away with the DRM. I mean, Fairplay has been cracked. I used a program called QTFairUse and converted all of my iTunes store songs into regular AAC tracks.

Why? Because now I'm not limited to 5 f***ing activations, and the option to only reset once a year. :mad: I can easily listen to my music across all of my computers, across all of their operating systems easily now. Saves me from beating my head aganist the wall and waiting and begging :apple: to reset my account because I had one-too-many activations due to a install of an OS going boom before I could deactivate the OS. (I wont mention what OS. >.>' <.<')

Also like when I upgraded an XP machine to Vista a few months back, I had to reactivate again. :mad: And thats before they told anyone to deactivate before upgrading, even if it was from RC1 to RC2 to RTM.
 
...And found this little tidbit. So you can play DRM music from iTunes on Sonos. And interestingly enough, you have exactly the same issue with Rhapsody and Sonos as you do with iTunes.

...I suspect the same solution would apply to the Squeezebox.

I don't really consider connecting a line-in to be a "solution." I have a home media server in a closet. While I could, in theory, connect my computer directly to a Sonos, why would I want to? I'd still need to use the computer to control the music, not the neato Sonos pad. And it wouldn't work with a SqueezeBox at all since the SqueezeBox doesn't have an amp.

For the record, I think Apple has every right to DRM their music and make it only playable on iPods. I'm in no way supportive of forcing Apple - or anyone else - to open up their technology just because some bureaucrat thinks it's a good idea.

That said, I personally do not support the iTunes store because I don't want someone telling me how and where to use the music I have PAID for. I fully support Steve Jobs' call for no DRM anywhere. Bottom line is, pirates will ALWAYS pirate. I've used a program to strip all of the copy protection out of my iTunes Music Store files. It can be done. Easily. No matter how hard Apple or M$ or anyone else works to stop pirates, it's a losing battle.

What the record industry needs to accept is that there will ALWAYS be piracy. However, just because piracy exists, that doesn't mean every one of your customers is a criminal. The industry needs to get over its paranoia. P2P piracy blossomed before any reasonable paid online music services existed.

Now that we have great products like the iTunes Music Store available, the landscape has changed. I would bet that the vast majority of people who buy music from iTunes would continue to do so, with or without DRM. Just as the vast majority of pirated music comes from the unprotected CDs sold by the labels.

The labels need to get a grip - and fast - or they risk permanently alienating their customers. They are doing nothing to inspire customer loyalty or respect. If anything, just the opposite. If you assume every customer is a criminal - and repeat that over and over again - well, you get what you deserve.
 
I really don't think other players should be allowed to use itunes. Itunes is an integral part for the iPod which helps it separate itself from the competition. If you want to use iTunes get an iPod.

Don't know if you were aware, but many Windows people hate putting iTunes on their computers and that basically makes less people buy iPods. And while I think iTunes is hands down the best mp3 player in the market, some people do wanna use winamp and such.

Being able to mount a 3rd party mp3 player on your desktop is enough to get itms music work on it --- as long as it doesn't have drm on it.
 
correct me if i'm wrong. but doesn't "convert selection to mp3" make DRM gone?


22 out of 100 songs are DRM-protected? Locked-in to an iPod? Hogwash!
Take your DRM songs, burn an audio (not MP3/AAC) CD, and reimport the CD into iTunes. Poof! DRM gone.
 
I really don't think other players should be allowed to use itunes. Itunes is an integral part for the iPod which helps it separate itself from the competition. If you want to use iTunes get an iPod.

I'm sorry, but that's just retarded. Suppose we got rid of DRM. You could still use iTunes with your iPod. But you would also have the option of using other music-stores if you prefer (for one reason or the other). you would also have the option of using iTunes-music with some other mp3-player if you want to.

Now, how would that harm you, the consumer? You would still have the option of using iTunes with iPod, no-one would take that away from you. You would just be given more options. But no, you are actually placing Apple's benefit above your personal benefit. You would actually prefer a scenario where Apple would limit your choices through DRM, instead of scenario where no artificial limitations are placed on you.

So you support DRM. And the reason you support DRM is "because it benefits Apple"? You are getting harmed, but you are OK with that, since "it benefit Apple"? YOu are placing Apple above yourself? Is that it?
 
That's what the radio is for. ;)
...or even the 30 second preview in iTunes, or MTV, or AOL music. There are plenty of legal alternatives that can be used to discover music, but they aren't utilized - why? ...Because that's not why people pirate music - they pirate music because they don't want to (or plan on) paying for their music.

I am strictly arguing for principles, and against the arguments pirates use to defend their illegal practice. It is absolutely not OK to steal music in any way.

And what we're seeing is that all those are collectively doing nothing to stop the decline in CD sales.

It's good you are arguing for principles, but what if those principles are based on misguided ideals? It's easy to say "stealing music is not okay" but you're not recognizing that music was shared in many different ways pre-Internet, albeit less effectively. People used to make mix tapes which they copied and gave to friends, for example. The music industry also considered that "stealing" but seriously, would you consider making a cassette recording of a CD and giving it to a friend truly stealing?

Because if that's the kind of world you want to live in, then I hope you never, ever exceeded the speed limit when driving a car. 'Cause speeding is illegal and against the law. I hope you never snuck your own candy bar into the movie theater, 'cause that's cheating the theater chain out of concessions money. I hope you never parked on the street without putting a coin in the meter because the errand would only take 5 minutes, 'causing that would be stealing the use of that parking space for a few minutes.

Heck, the music industry has even sued libraries in the past because people could borrow music CDs just like books. Maybe the whole concept of libraries should be abolished, since it's a system set up expressly so that people never have to pay to buy books or magazines. That's surely stealing, isn't it? I'd like you to answer why the free library system isn't considered stealing, or why even copyrights should ever expire since making content freely available is apparently detrimental to business.

Frankly, with the multi-year decline of CD sales that's occurring, I am content to let the music industry go on imploding. It deserves to lose another $2 or 5 billion a year in sales because only a crisis of that proportion will give them a clue (more likely, act as a catalyst to push out the copyright purists who hold all the power right now).

Because that's what this is about. It's about the purism of absolute control - or more accurately, the absolute fear of the loss of control - and the desire to punish ordinary people for simply sharing music, like people have done since the dawn of human history. Forget that locking music down contributes to its decline and eventual oblivion, no matter how many ad dollars you spend or how many radio or TV stations carry the tune. Because it's all about principle, dude, and stealing is stealing, right?

Here's some perspective.

* When Thomas Edison invented the phonograph, the music industry cried it would destroy the market for music because no one would want to buy player piano scrolls anymore. It didn't happen.

* When the radio was invented, the music industry cried it would destroy music because it threatened the lucrative phonograph market. It didn't happen.

* When TV was introduced, the music industry cried it would destory music because why would anyone listen to radio when they could see a performance on TV? It didn't happen.

* When the portable cassette recorder was invented, the music industry cried that it would destroy music because it would make illegal copying rampant, and no one would buy music again, ever. It didn't happen - the music industry only grew richer.

* When the CD came out, the music industry was happy because there was no easy way to copy CDs.

* When PCs started shipping with CD readers and burners, the music industry cried that listening to your music on your PC was illegal, and began concocting all kinds of schemes to prevent your PC from playing audio CDs. Burning CDs was an even bigger no-no, and when Apple began advertising Macs with the phrase "Rip, Mix, Burn," clue-deprived Michael Eisner testified in front of Congress that Apple as advocating outright illegal piracy (even though burning CDs was completely legal fair-use right, according to the Supreme Court).

The music industry had it's best years when the original Napster was at its height. You must admit that is highly ironic. Why? Because of the network effect. People would see the video on MTV, maybe catch the tune on the radio, and then sample it by downloading on Napster. Sometimes that was the end of it, but overall, the sales of music CD were sky high because people were surrounded by music. Now a vital piece of that network effect is gone due to the actions of the music industry - not because "stealing is wrong" (which it is) but because they are more interested in enforcing ideological purism and creating a world in which people only get information from "authorized sources," damned be human nature. Not because it's "morally right" or legal, but simply because they can soley as a result of computer technology. There is no other reason, despite all the moral posturing.

(I note that Prohibition was quite successful at getting people to stop drinking that devilish, sin-inducing alcohol in the 1920s...not)

But it's all cool. I'm quite happy to see the music industry bleeding out even as its top execs go through painful contortions as they keep trying to explain how piracy is still responsible for declining sales even as they keep jacking up CD prices and overal P2P piracy keeps going down. I haven't bought a music CD in quite a while and neither have I bought a song on iTunes in years (I also don't download songs from P2P networks, either). I know nothing short of a musical industry equivalent of the Titantic sinking will shake the hubris and blind arrogance of people like Doug Morris, so I say, "So be it!"

But like the new "Get a Mac" commercial says, I hope you are coming to a sad realization that your purist stance serves no common good, does not help the livelihoods of the artists at all (declining CD sales push them more into debt with the labels), hurts a lot of innocent people who are targeted with lawsuits for crimes the RIAA can't even prove they committed, and still has no effect on the actual copyrights (which the labels are quite eager to take away from the artist at the very first opportunity).

On top of that, everyone but Apple loses money the whole way down.

So be it, until the labels are one day pummeled into a DRM-free reality.
 
That is an informative and great letter. I'm glad I read it, though I have no personal problem with DRM, since I have no reason to steal music.

You are missing the point. DRM prevents you from doing things that you are legally entitled to do. And it ties you to one specific system. There was an article in a Finnish IT-magazine last year, where they talked of DRM. They talked of an example of one Finnish online music-store. They had a scheme where you buy the music, and when you listen to the music, it would authenticate of the stores servers. As it happens, the company went bankrupt. End-result? Every single song purchased from that store became unplayable, since the DRM-system could no longer authenticate on the company's servers.

You might say that "Well, Apple wont go bankrupt. And that other DRM-scheme was retarded". But the point is valid: DRM makes lives of consumers more difficult, period. DRM does not benefit the consumer in any shape or form. Anyone who supports DRM is placing interests of corporations before the interests of consumers.
 
All Europe wants are music stores which aren't locked in to a single device. Is that so bad - they want more consumer freedom.

There is no DRM-scheme that would be suitable. PlaysForSure (HAH!)? It's a scheme that is controlled by single entity. Yes, it does play on several different devices. But it too will only work with PlaysForSure-devices, it does NOT work with ALL devices. Zune? Zune-content only works on Zunes.

You can buy music from Store A and play the content on digital device B. Shocking - you have the freedom to buy online music like you have with brick and mortor stores!!!

You can only do that if the device comforms to the DRM-scheme used by the store. It really is no different with iTunes and iPod than PlaysForSure and Creative (for example). Yes, PFS works with several different manufacturers, but it's still a closed system. In some ways it's more closed than FairPlay, since Fairplay works on about 70-80% of devices, whereas PFS only covers around (my guesstimate) 10% of devices.

Only solution to the DRM-problem, is to get entirely rid of DRM. And that is a developement I support 100%. And anyone with a working brain would agree with me ;).
 
Some other players were able to "sync" with iTunes... but only with non DRM music. I haven't tested this lately, so don't know if this has been dropped

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93548

Remember iTunes existed before the iPod.

arn

On the same train of thought ... The other day, I came across a program called "nexTune." It works on a Mac. It can import all your non DRM protected music form iTunes and sync with other MP3 players beside the iPod. I haven't used it yet, but I was thinking of trying it with a non Apple flash player I was given for Christmas.
 
Steve really points out the hypocrisy of the music industry, but without actually using that word.

Go Steve!

You captured it perfectly. Now if it would only have some effect. It is interesting that Steve was appealing to governments outside the US. Perhaps he's already given up trying to get the US government to see sense.

Don't know if you were aware, but many Windows people hate putting iTunes on their computers and that basically makes less people buy iPods. And while I think iTunes is hands down the best mp3 player in the market, some people do wanna use winamp and such.

Being able to mount a 3rd party mp3 player on your desktop is enough to get itms music work on it --- as long as it doesn't have drm on it.

I'm all for competition, but Apple isn't worried about the number of people who don't buy and iPod because they don't want iTunes running on their Windows computer for some unknown philosophical reason. Right now anyway, the number of iPods sold eclipses every other player by a ridiculous margin, and the main reason for that is the experience is just better. iTunes is a large reason that the experience is better, so it seems to me that iTunes has sold a lot more iPods than they would have sold if they would have "cheapened" the experience and tried to make the iPod work with everyone else's jukebox software.
 
Apple could license out fairplay - I don't really buy SJ's explanation. The industry could come up with a standard DRM. There are two solutions for keeping the DRM on music and allow interoperability.

Fairplay is more *closed* that playforsure. It only works with Apple devices, where are PlayForSure works with multiple devices. The 70% you quote is for a marketshare for a single device which isn't quite the same.

I agree you with - all DRM should be removed. This will ensure consumer freedom - then we can choose to buy from Store A and play on Digital Player B.

The current situation is laughable - that I can only play music from iTunes on iPod. What sort of crap is that? If I want to do otherwise then I have to waste my time burning -> rip - and that is *NOT* ideal.

(yes, yes, fan boi's will argue *it just works* but not everyone likes iTunes, actually a lot despise it, and if I want to use any other media player application then why shouldn't I to organise my iTMS music in that rather than iTunes - developers will come up with suitable worksarounds to sync from that to iPod - I buy from iTMS and copy to, say, WinApp
).

Once DRM is lifted from digital music then people will have freedom to use whatever:
- digital player they like
- media player
- pick and choose the music store they wan to buy from without having to use time consuming burn and rip work arounds.

How much more ideal can this situation be?

There is no DRM-scheme that would be suitable. PlaysForSure (HAH!)? It's a scheme that is controlled by single entity. Yes, it does play on several different devices. But it too will only work with PlaysForSure-devices, it does NOT work with ALL devices. Zune? Zune-content only works on Zunes.



You can only do that if the device comforms to the DRM-scheme used by the store. It really is no different with iTunes and iPod than PlaysForSure and Creative (for example). Yes, PFS works with several different manufacturers, but it's still a closed system. In some ways it's more closed than FairPlay, since Fairplay works on about 70-80% of devices, whereas PFS only covers around (my guesstimate) 10% of devices.

Only solution to the DRM-problem, is to get entirely rid of DRM. And that is a developement I support 100%. And anyone with a working brain would agree with me ;).
 
Fairplay is more *closed* that playforsure. It only works with Apple devices

And PFS only works with PFS-devices. So what's your point? the fact that PFS are made and sold by several companies is rather irrelevant in the end, it's still a closed system. If you own a device that is not part of PFS, PFS-content will not work. And then we have the Zune... Zune doesn't work with PFS-content, and Zune-content doesn't work with PFS....

The 70% you quote is for a marketshare for a single device which isn't quite the same.

Well, fact remains that about 70% of the devices out there will play FairPlay-content, whereas only about 10% of devices will play back PFS-content. Whether those devices are made by one or more companies is quite irrelevant. PFS is still very closed system regardless of how many manufacturers have signed up to it.

The current situation is laughable - that I can only play music from iTunes on iPod. What sort of crap is that? If I want to do otherwise then I have to waste my time burning -> rip - and that is *NOT* ideal.

And I can only play back music from those various PFS-stores on PFS-enabled players. Will the music work on my cell-phone? How about my Linux-machine? No? Well then...

Only DRM that works is no DRM at all. I'm not supporting FairPlay as such, I'm just saying that PlaysForSure isn't really one bit better.
 
I'm generalising - I'm not going to state every music store and point out which digital player you can play with.

Yes, I totally agree with you - no DRM is absolutely the best solution. I think the music industry will be surprised of how well it will work.

But then, talking about the benefits of P2P and people actually do buy music as a result to the music industry is like talking about the existence of global warming to the oil industry!! They both bluntly refuse to listen to the evidence.

Second best solution would be a standard DRM that all the players use.

And I can only play back music from those various PFS-stores on PFS-enabled players. Will the music work on my cell-phone? How about my Linux-machine? No? Well then...
 
Don't know if you were aware, but many Windows people hate putting iTunes on their computers and that basically makes less people buy iPods. And while I think iTunes is hands down the best mp3 player in the market, some people do wanna use winamp and such.

Being able to mount a 3rd party mp3 player on your desktop is enough to get itms music work on it --- as long as it doesn't have drm on it.


These people are lacking in basic cognitive skills. Please ask them to think this through.

Do they think all windows users are anti-mac activists ??
The checkout operator in their local supermarket, their 60 year old granfather, the woman working in the local bar ?? Or are they just people who want to use an ipod to play their music on and don't care what it is as long as it's easy, polished and reliable ?

The web and the opinions sprayed all over it do not represent the real world...I always doubt the opinions of activist windows potheads...

There are probably 70million copies of Windows Itunes installed worldwide - and everyone of them will be running perfectly. It 'spyware, ad and virus' free ( as well as being FREE) and is an exceptionally well written and stable application - far more so than the other 90% of anonymous s/w hackers in the murky shadowy shareware lands that inhabit the relam of mp3 jukebox players on windows.
Crazy - yeah sure it hooks to ipods and is a honey trap but as a stand alone Junkebox it's a peach. Jees, I've never seen any genuinely sub-par S/W come out of Apple in over a decade now...this is just anti-mac propoganda man, strip their zany thoughts of a windows distopia from your mind and cultivate your inner zen......


I'm all for competition, but Apple isn't worried about the number of people who don't buy and iPod because they don't want iTunes running on their Windows computer for some unknown philosophical reason.

Don't agree. Apple want Windows users - they want to lure them into the happy place that is 'Apple Mac land'...and Itunes/Ipod is the combo that makes them finally realise "wow, there is a better way than windows". You have to remember they released the mac version first as this was their core market and their core strength at the time.
 
Record labels give their artists hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps even millions, to produce a record. I think that's being pretty generous, don't you think so? And while the artist does have to pay that back, it's not like the record label is penny-pinching all of their sales and keeping the money in their pocket -- they can't pay artists like the used to because people don't buy the music.

That is not true. Record companies loan artists thousands of dollars to produce a record. What they spend money on is marketing (and not even videos) That's why most artists make more money from performances then actual music sales.
 
There are probably 70million copies of Windows Itunes installed worldwide - and everyone of them will be running perfectly. It 'spyware, ad and virus' free ( as well as being FREE) and is an exceptionally well written and stable application - far more so than the other 90% of anonymous s/w hackers in the murky shadowy shareware lands that inhabit the relam of mp3 jukebox players on windows.

But thats the point, iTunes doesn't work 100% reliably on Windows, or Macs. Those people who iTunes for whatever reason that doesn't run well on their windows machine ( or Mac ) will detest it.


Jees, I've never seen any genuinely sub-par S/W come out of Apple in over a decade now...this is just anti-mac propoganda man, strip their zany thoughts of a windows distopia from your mind and cultivate your inner zen......

I get that feeling from Apple Fan Boi's too who think that Apple can do no wrong. Apple Fan Boi's are just as bad as anti Apple people!

iCal 1.0, iPhoto < 4.0 weren't shinning examples of great software - they were extremely sluggish. OSX 10.0 wasn't ready for prime time.
 
But thats the point, iTunes doesn't work 100% reliably on Windows, or Macs. Those people who iTunes for whatever reason that doesn't run well on their windows machine ( or Mac ) will detest it.




I get that feeling from Apple Fan Boi's too who think that Apple can do no wrong. Apple Fan Boi's are just as bad as anti Apple people!

1: Itunes has always worked 100% reliably on every PC or mac I've ever installed it on. I can't speak for Junk Tech as I've never installed it on any....but then this is the crux of the entire PC vs Mac philosophy ain't it!...Even Windows is reliable on good H/W.

2:please show respect in the presence of greatness!!! Apple Fan Boi's have achieved a form of higher consciousness, a state of technological nirvana and an understanding to the deeper meaning of life.
They will all re-incarnate as dolphins on the ocean planet of Applegaio and live playfully in the sunbathed crystal blue seas without threat or harm or any nastiness ever coming to pass before finally ascending into the light of universal unity...Anti-mac users of course will come back to a parallel earth as 16th century miners and be forced to dig coal from deep beneath the hot earth with their bare hands...
 
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