Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

[marksman]

This thread is so funny that i'm starting to feel I shouldn't hang around here anymore.

MacHead - Here have an iPad! You can do everything you can on a laptop!

JoeBlogg - Thats great.....hey why isn't FaceBook letting me play my games?

MacHead - Thats because the iPad doesn't run Flash, no one uses it anymore!

JoeBlogg - Well all these games I play on FaceBook wont work then?

MacHead - No but your iPad runs 30% faster without Flash.

JoeBlogg -

MacHead - Yeah thats right, Flash is dead.

JoeBlogg - Where's my laptop.....

Half the games Zynga makes have iphone equivelents.

You can expect a farmville app at some point. The company earns over 200 million in revenue and could make a lot more expanding to the iPhone universe with farmville. It is only a matter of time. They don't care about flash either. it is a means to an end for them.

This is what people don't understand. Most people, and websites, and web developers don't give two flips about flash and have zero allegiance to it.

Ignoring what will certainly be 100 million plus mobile devices in the next year, while the mobile space is becoming the new frontier, sounds like bad business to me, for pretty much any website.

 

[Voltaic]

What the hell is Jobs doing? Why is he ranting against Flash? Why is he bent on attacking Adobe and Google all of a sudden?

The fact is, until there is a widespread alternative to Flash, Apple better support it and like it.

What the hell is he doing?!

 

[ikramerica]

It's not just flash video that is power hungry...

I did a simple test to see just how horribly Flash is optimized on OS X.

I launched the Porsche USA site. Clicked on Cayenne.

There are two flash enabled parts to that page. Using click to flash, I clicked one on. This is on a near 3 year old Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro 15".

Total CPU usage by Safari with 20 pages open, as well as open iPhoto, Preview, Mail, Backup and Printer Queue...

Before Flash content launched: 6% of 200% (4% by system, 2% by apps).
After launching Flash content: 30% of 200% (10% by system, 20% by apps).

What was this glorious Flash content I clicked on that couldn't be displayed by any other coding method? Something only Adobe can give the world?

A button that reads: Play Video.

That's all. A button.

25% processor use to display ONE BUTTON.

Yep, the web needs Flash so lazy auto companies can write bloated flash code to bring us interactive content. Auto companies are heavy users of flash, but what they put on their sites is easily built using no Flash. Apple's website is proof of this. Target as well.

I went to ESPN to see what was in Flash that was so vital:
Ads
Polls (easily written without Flash)
A banner that reads: NFL

That's about it.

The world will get by without Flash because so many companies already are moving away from it.

As for Facebook? If Facebook is even relevant in 2 years, then we'll talk. Just ask MySpace about how quickly things change. And since I know people who code for MySpace, you can be sure that they are shifting their website (backend and interface) to meet current trends (though probably too late), and Facebook will try to do the same ASAP so as not to fade into oblivion. If that means asking game developers to compile in HTML5, they will do that. It's not even a question up for debate.

 

[huntercr]

He's so conceited, I really hope the newspapers keep using flash, just to spite him. Never-mind I also disagree with his whole philosophy of trying to tell other companies what's in their best interests.

Yes, shame on him for trying to make money. The gall!

You don't think Microsoft in the 80's and 90's didn't walk around and tell everyone *exactly* what they could and couldn't do?

Try telling that to "Stacker" and Netscape and dozens of other companies.

Jobs is trying to entice people into a future as he sees it, that's alot better than going along with the status quo.

Flash is a slimy technology that Adobe had 10 years + to get entered into a real standard if that's what they wanted. They didn't do that because they were greedy and thought they could hang onto that lead forever. Apple went the smart route and realized that pursuing a standard was far better ,and it happens to be be advantageous to his devices. Don't think for one second that every device make on the planet including Microsoft, RMM etc aren't siding with Jobs on this one.

 

[nothingreal]

if Apple is serious about killing flash..

then they ought to use some of that mountain of cash they are sitting on and make a major purchase or two (Hulu comes to mind).

At the very least they ought to forge a partnership with them or buy their way in to the company.

now that YouTube is moving in the H.264 direction, Hulu could easily follow.

 

[calderone]

Yes, shame on him for trying to make money. The gall!

You don't think Microsoft in the 80's and 90's didn't walk around and tell everyone *exactly* what they could and couldn't do?

Try telling that to "Stacker" and Netscape and dozens of other companies.

Jobs is trying to entice people into a future as he sees it, that's alot better than going along with the status quo.

Flash is a slimy technology that Adobe had 10 years + to get entered into a real standard if that's what they wanted. They didn't do that because they were greedy and thought they could hang onto that lead forever. Apple went the smart route and realized that pursuing a standard was far better ,and it happens to be be advantageous to his devices. Don't think for one second that every device make on the planet including Microsoft, RMM etc aren't siding with Jobs on this one.

Adobe has only owned Flash for 5 years.

 

[Eidorian]

Explain why a 360p video on youtube in the flash player brings my fans up to 6200 RPM, brings my CPU usage to 100-120% and turns my computer into a sauna, yet I could watch a 1080p video (not just h.264, mkv, baseline mp4, avi, and even flv) on my computer and my fans are at idle. Not to mention I am using youtube's html 5 beta, and my computer doesn't hyperventilate when I want to watch a youtube video. The same content produces different results. I know you like to take the stance that Apple is always wrong, and that they are en evil cult designed to make the world worse, but they aren't this time around. Flash is a resource hog.

Which computer and operating system?

 

[Terminal.app]

He's so conceited, I really hope the newspapers keep using flash, just to spite him. Never-mind I also disagree with his whole philosophy of trying to tell other companies what's in their best interests.

You mean like how Microsoft continues to ignore web standards and cripples the web with its large IE market share?

You may not care for SJ as a person (honestly I don't either) but he's right and he's been right a number of times in the past. The sooner the web can adopt the same unified, open standard, without crap proprietary plug-ins like Flash, the better.

 

[zweigand]

Honestly guys/gals ... there's no point in arguing this. Flash isn't going anywhere. in fact if you would leave your walled Apple gardens and read the news you would see the exact opposite is happening. More and more devices are moving toward Flash.

Apple will be left in the dust and consumers will move to more powerful devices that will allow them to DO EVERYTHING on the web.

You can thank Apple for igniting the fire under Adobe. http://bit.ly/9thQSR

One thing is for sure, other potential Mobile/Pad/Slate manufacturers are thanking Apple for holding out. Flash is one (possibly the only) "hot" feature that they will have to differentiate themselves. Expect them to mention it ad-nauseum.

Doesn't matter to me. I'm getting an iPad.

 

[willdenow]

In his arguments against Flash, Jobs reportedly claimed that including Flash support would have decimated the iPad's battery life, bringing it down from its claimed 10 hours to the neighborhood of 1.5 hours. Jobs also claimed that abandoning Flash in favor of other tools would be "trivial" for The Wall Street Journal, suggesting that they embrace H.264-encoded video has one means toward that end. He apparently did not address, however, the steps that would be required for the paper to entirely redo its entire Web-based content in iPad-friendly technologies such as JavaScript.
Flash[/url]

If Flash reduces the battery capacity of the iPad by 95%, then there are serious problems with the iPad. And I find it incredibly curious that the Flash plugins in Foxfire, Chrome, and (presumably) Opera don't behave this way. Only in Safari.

As for talking trash about old technology, let's review the issue shall we? Core2Duo chips in iMacs years after Quad Cores were available? No 3G/4G chips in Laptops? No memory card readers in any Apple computers until this last year? BlueRay missing in action for a third consecutive year? No eSATA in ANY of their computer offerings. No HDMI port for exporting video to TVs. USB3 missing in action, despite the availability of chipsets and products (this latter point particularly galling on the MacBook, which lacks FireWire as well). No 10 gigabit ethernet on MacPros. And on, and on.

As regards software, many of Apple's major technologies are still not entirely written in Cocoa (Final Cut, DVD Studio, Logic Express), iTunes is still 32-bit and generally acknowledged to be a piece of crap, and let's not even revisit the Finder and Spotlight, especially when Apple complains that Flash is a resource hog.

To me, it's all very sad. Apple is becoming more and more Microsoft-like in its business practices every day. If Microsoft had developed a completely closed platform like the iPod/iTouch/iPhone/iPad ecosystem, the whole world would be reaching for pitch forks and torches, no doubt led by a vanguard of Macolytes. But when Apple does it, not only do the Macolytes not complain, but they build yet another temple to worship the wisdom of Saint Steve.

Apple is a technology company, just like any other. Its products, services and corporate behavior should be evaluated as fairly and justly as possible. And sadly, Apple is behaving more and more like a bully to its employees, customers, and business partners. I was a diehard mac fan for many years, but lately this whole quasi religious aura and cult of personality surrounding Jobs and Apple is really creeping me out. I'm all for talking up Apple's many various technology offerings (when they merit), but I steadfastly refuse to hand over my free will to Apple like some Moonie or Scientologist.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

It's actually an excellent sign. No one in Apple's target audience, and, in fact, almost no one who doesn't work at Adobe HQ in San Jose, makes their buying decisions based on Flash. In fact, the average member of the iPad's target audience doesn't know the difference between Flash, Java, Internet Explorer, and their own elbow.

Just a few moments ago, my sister asked me why the ipad doesn't play flash. Because of that, she wouldn't even consider the ipad. And she is the target audience, even though she knows the difference between her elbow and... well, not sure where you were going with that one. But she knows her elbow (and flash, and explorer).

Perhaps in a few years, Steve Jobs will be known as the one who single-handely bought down:

• Optical Disk Drives
• Matte Displays
• Adobe Flash
  [/LIST

• 
  
  Matte displays, as in, those screens that Apple now offers as an option again? This is due to enormous customer complaints, especially from the art and design community, who would rather skip these new mirror displays for something that can actually calibrate with better accuracy.

 

[Voltaic]

You mean like how Microsoft continues to ignore web standards and cripples the web with its large IE market share?

You may not care for SJ as a person (honestly I don't either) but he's right and he's been right a number of times in the past. The sooner the web can adopt the same unified, open standard, without crap proprietary plug-ins like Flash, the better.

His point is right, but gets lost with this kind of ranting. He is the one looking like an idiot. Besides, what is the "current" alternative? He and the Mac would be better off if they worked with Adobe for the time being, not against them.

 

[haruhiko]

yes, Flash is a piece of **** on Mac. But it's not the same story for Windows. Is it really that hard for Adobe to code a stable Mac version of the Flash player?

By the way, in terms of battery/cpu hogging & heat generating ability, iTunes for Windows should come first before the evil Flash player.

 

[calderone]

Just a few moments ago, my sister asked me why the ipad doesn't play flash. Because of that, she wouldn't even consider the ipad. And she is the target audience, even though she knows the difference between her elbow and... well, not sure where you were going with that one. But she knows her elbow (and flash, and explorer).

Wouldn't that mean she isn't the target audience? Wouldn't the lack of Flash mean that Apple isn't targeting those with a strong need for Flash content?

 

[JackAxe]

then they ought to use some of that mountain of cash they are sitting on and make a major purchase or two (Hulu comes to mind).

At the very least they ought to forge a partnership with them or buy their way in to the company.

now that YouTube is moving in the H.264 direction, Hulu could easily follow.

Flash has supported and has been using H.264 video since 2008. It was added with Flash Player 10.

 

[AnalyzeThis]

So true, people thought getting rid of the optical drive was crazy and now are seeing it can be a definite possibility.

I am not sure how this relates to Apple, but optical drives are disappearing because of USB flash drives and portable drives provide a way better alternative, not because of Steve said so, same for floppies and etc. Consumers are deciding factor, not CEOs. Apple just leaving his customers with no alternative for years to come.
Besides, Apple would not even allow media slot(SDHC) on any of their devices, period. Is Steve just a Douche or lazy? Oh, of course he is a marketing Wiz by selling you fixed storage for 10x the price. Same for everything else.

 

[Mac-Michael]

Go Apple! You have my moral and financial support - I'm getting a 1st generation iPad. Also I'll never forgive Flash for storing cookies behind my back which you can only clear manually by navigating to not one but two obscure directories.. Simply unforgivable.

 

[willdenow]

Which computer and operating system?

Boot your 27 inch iMac into Windows 7 and play the same segment. No heat, no fans, no problem. Everybody is so willing to drink the kool aid and repeat Jobs' mantra without ever asking whether there might be a problem with OS X or Safari. Flash under Foxfire consumes considerably less cpu cycles under OS X than Safari. And it has never crashed the browser, whereas Safari crashes on me 2 or 3 times a DAY even though I have removed Flash. This tells me at least some of the problem is no Apple's end.

 

[willdenow]

Apple tracks you also

Go Apple! You have my moral and financial support - I'm getting a 1st generation iPad. Also I'll never forgive Flash for storing cookies behind my back which you can only clear manually by navigating to not one but two obscure directories.. Simply unforgivable.

Install Little Snitch and just watch how many times your computer calls the Apple mothership over the course of an hour, let alone a day and then come back to complain about Adobe.

 

[Eidorian]

Boot your 27 inch iMac into Windows 7 and play the same segment. No heat, no fans, no problem. Everybody is so willing to drink the kool aid and repeat Jobs' mantra without ever asking whether there might be a problem with OS X or Safari. Flash under Foxfire consumes considerably less cpu cycles under OS X than Safari. And it has never crashed the browser, whereas Safari crashes on me 2 or 3 times a DAY even though I have removed Flash. This tells me at least some of the problem is no Apple's end.

10.6 adds an additional wrench with sandboxed plug-ins and 64-bit mode. That overhead is very noticeable when using Flash over 10.5.

As I've said before. Apple pushes media and content heavily but said APIs aren't open to developers to improve performance and battery life.

 

[*LTD*]

ROFL! We have Adobe fans now? Gimme a break . . .

 

[JackAxe]

This is just another reason Mr. Jobs has gone a bit looney on us;
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-at-...h-player-101-and-adobe-air-on-tablet-devices/

 

[JackAxe]

ROFL! We have Adobe fans now? Gimme a break . . .

Hypocrisy says what?

 

[zweigand]

The only way I can watch Hulu fullscreen on my 24" iMac (2.16ghz C2D) is to use OS X's built in screen magnification to zoom into the little 480p window until it fills the screen. If I try to scale it with the Flash player itself I get unwatchable stutter.

The crazy part is the video looks to be about the same quality. (Flash blown up is a bit jaggier …screen zoom is a bit "softer") Try it yourself and look at the CPU difference.

 

[Speedy2]

If Flash reduces the battery capacity of the iPad by 95%, then there are serious problems with the iPad.

No, that's exactly the problem. Adobe is the only one who is able and allowed to write a Flash plugin for the iPad because they own the whole technology. If it kills battery life by wasting CPU cycles, what exactly could Apple do about it? Nothing, nada, zilch, nichts.