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Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

lpetrich said:
However, HTML5 doesn't seem very well adapted to the sort of content lockdown that proprietary-content creators often want. Such lockdown is easy to achieve with Flash, however.

That goes not only for audio and video, but also for games and demos and the like.

For the latter, one can use HTML5 <canvas> or SVG controlled with JavaScript, but one would have to rewrite one's games and demos from the bottom up to use such approaches.
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Yes, videos are one thing and games are another...


As Gruber so succintly put it: “And as for Flash games, isn’t it utterly obvious that existing Flash games, which work via keyboard and mouse, wouldn’t work at all on devices which lack both keyboard and mouse?”
 
I personally think that Apple may approach the point of treading on very thin ice legally over banning Flash from the iPad.

Adobe could cite the following legal precedent:

1) David Hyatt--an Apple employee--is one of two editors of the current W3C draft specification for HTML 5.0. That right there potentially raises conflict of interest issues, pushing a new, unproven technology to the exclusion of proven technology.

2) Adobe could show that the iPad's A4 CPU has enough "oomph" to run Flash 10.1 safely with little effect on battery performance. If that is the case, then Apple could be in violation of one of the aspects of the 1914 Clayton Antitrust Act.

And the European Union antitrust authorities--who are very aggressive in antitrust cases--may soon start asking questions on why Apple deliberately banned Flash in favor of an unproven technology that one of its employees had a hand in crafting the current draft specification.

If Apple does not offer tools to help web designers and programmers transition from Flash-based web sites to HTML 5.0-based web sites, then Apple could be in legal hot water pretty soon. Hopefully, Apple will offer such tools by WWDC 2010, which web designers and programmers will welcome to begin a transition to a post-Flash world.
 
zweigand said:
How fitting …go cast your vote.

HTML5 vs Flash on Mashable. http://bit.ly/cQFpUR
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i can assure you that if there was another poll simply asking developers what they currently use to create websites, you would see similar results with the majority choosing HTML/JavaScript/CSS while the minority would select Flash/Actionscript/Flex. this is not a surprise because of two main reasons:

1. the majority of live sites currently on the internet are static, lifeless with typical designs.

2. (generally speaking) "web designers" are actually "web programmers" with zero artistic training and/or appreciation.
 
There was an interesting article on businessweek.com.

It stated that if Apple would allow Flash on the iPad, it would open doors for users to get applications elsewhere.

Apple is eager to shut out all possible competition, and wants iPad users to buy solely at the iTunes and the app store.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2010/tc20100219_842028.htm

zweigand said:
What case have I lost? I haven't lost my "case" until Flash gets on the iPhone/iPad, or until the iProducts fail because of Flash's absence.

Yeah, Adobe all of a sudden taking great interest in improving the Flash experience on the Mac after years of neglect has NOTHING to do with the recent turn of events. :rolleyes:
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The whole thing is a power struggle, and nobody, neither Adobe, nor Apple, thinks about the customer's best interest, but market leverage.

Only in this case, if Adobe wins (unlikely), and Flash comes to the iPad, it would open doors for iPad users to buy their apps elsewhere.

Referring to the businessweek.com article that I posted above, this is about Apple seeking a monopoly in selling content.
 
Nostromo said:
There was an interesting article on businessweek.com.

It stated that if Apple would allow Flash on the iPad, it would open doors for users to get applications elsewhere.

Apple is eager to shut out all possible competition, and wants iPad users to buy solely at the iTunes and the app store.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2010/tc20100219_842028.htm



The whole thing is a power struggle, and nobody, neither Adobe, nor Apple, thinks about the customer's best interest, but market leverage.

Only in this case, if Adobe wins (unlikely), and Flash comes to the iPad, it would open doors for iPad users to buy their apps elsewhere.

Referring to the businessweek.com article that I posted above, this is about Apple seeking a monopoly in selling content.
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I don't buy that. Why do they allow web apps if that is the case? No store …no payments.
 
Nostromo said:
There was an interesting article on businessweek.com.

It stated that if Apple would allow Flash on the iPad, it would open doors for users to get applications elsewhere.

Apple is eager to shut out all possible competition, and wants iPad users to buy solely at the iTunes and the app store.
Click to expand...

If that is the case, Apple will likely get sued by Adobe, possibly the FTC/Department of Justice and even the EU antitrust authorities for essentially shutting out a competitor. (Indeed, shutting out a competitor in this manner is a violation of the 1914 Clayton Antitrust Act.)
 
I believe we can do away with the flash content but sometimes, there’s no way to insist that every web develop has to follow and comply. I much as I want it to be flash free by disabling in my browser, sometimes I get the feeling that I’m missing on the great stuff. I hope it becomes a reality someday without flash.
 
lilo777 said:
In case you missed, Apple claims that you get as good internet experience on these mobile devices as on desktops. Besides we are talking about regular web sites not the WAP versions.
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This is the distinguishing point about expectations that may have some impact on people's perception on the iPad. Apple has told people to expect an equivalent desktop experience in a handheld device. When an iPhone didnt play flash, people didnt expect it to. This is not a phone people, at 800 at the high end, it better perform as well as a netbook

I dont know if it will sell like gangbusters or be a niche product, but there are some leaps and logic all over the thread. For example, to assume that because people bought the iphone and touch in droves means this will consequently sell in the same fashion is unrealistic. Also, for techies to gather that its obvious limitations will deter people from buying it isn't a guarantee either.

What I do know is that after the obvious loyalists buy one, they device will have to sell to the rest of the world based on its value. Not being able to do normal tasks as they are accustomed to may hinder adoption.

Say what you will about products you don't like but the fact remains the average person uses Flash everyday, uses MS Office suite, and likes to chat on AIM while doing something else. Saying all of these may be available in the future doesnt make it a buy it now item. It'll be interesting to see how compelling an appstore is for a non-pocketable device
 
kas23 said:
Exactly. I don't know what type of Macs these people are using, but Flash works perfectly on my Mac and always has.
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Until the 3G came out I never even realized there was an inequity between Flash on Mac and Windows, until all the anti-Flash posts on MR started.

All I can say is that Steve Jobs vendetta and arrogance is turning me off on Apple. :( I'm not a dev, nor a power user. But I do watch a lot of streaming video online and I'm not going to give that up or wait for HTML5.
 
You watch people return iPads in drove a few days after they get them when they realise the majority of regular peoples sites dont work.

My mom was telling me the other night she is getting an iPad because her laptop is driving her nuts and is so slow. I told her again, "you do realise you can't play farmville on it" as she is hooked on that. She didn't realise, but was happy to plunk down and buy one because it had a web broswer so assumed it would work.

Bet lots of less savy people make the same mistake when the in store Apple people tell them its the best web experience, yet fail to mention a lot of sites wont work.

I'm not getting one.
 
wendywen said:
I believe we can do away with the flash content but sometimes, there’s no way to insist that every web develop has to follow and comply. I much as I want it to be flash free by disabling in my browser, sometimes I get the feeling that I’m missing on the great stuff. I hope it becomes a reality someday without flash.
Click to expand...

I'd love to see that happen, too (if only to see faster page rendering!), but Apple wanting web page developers to go HTML 5.0 "cold turkey" without bothering to offer Flash-to-HTML 5.0 conversion tools won't fly with web developers. We don't want a "walled garden" Internet experience, especially with Apple's claim for web surfing on the iPad.
 
Obviously MR is a Mac-developer site, because no other opinions but "Steve Jobs is God" are accepted.
 
Apple website says,
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/adobeflashplayer.html

"About Adobe Flash Player
The standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content. Designs, animation and application user interfaces are deployed immediately across all browsers and platforms, attracting and engaging users with a rich web experience."


Then steve says it's horrible. Hmmmmm...

Apple desktops and laptops run flash perfectly (I've never had an issue with any of my apple computers, so I don't know what people are talking about, and I only run Safari)

This is proof that they're trying to protect app store revenue.

The real question is how does Jobs convince the fanboys that Flash is garbage when his own website is stating that it's "the standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content"
 
megadon said:
Apple website says,
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/adobeflashplayer.html

"About Adobe Flash Player
The standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content. Designs, animation and application user interfaces are deployed immediately across all browsers and platforms, attracting and engaging users with a rich web experience."


Then steve says it's horrible. Hmmmmm...

Apple desktops and laptops run flash perfectly (I've never had an issue with any of my apple computers, so I don't know what people are talking about, and I only run Safari)

This is proof that they're trying to protect app store revenue.

The real question is how does Jobs convince the fanboys that Flash is garbage when his own website is stating that it's "the standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content"
Click to expand...

Brainwashing.
 
megadon said:
Apple website says,
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/adobeflashplayer.html

"About Adobe Flash Player
The standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content. Designs, animation and application user interfaces are deployed immediately across all browsers and platforms, attracting and engaging users with a rich web experience."


Then steve says it's horrible. Hmmmmm...

Apple desktops and laptops run flash perfectly (I've never had an issue with any of my apple computers, so I don't know what people are talking about, and I only run Safari)

This is proof that they're trying to protect app store revenue.

The real question is how does Jobs convince the fanboys that Flash is garbage when his own website is stating that it's "the standard for delivering high-impact, rich web content"
Click to expand...

They aren't mutually exclusive. You can have crap standards.
 
AndyR said:
You watch people return iPads in drove a few days after they get them when they realise the majority of regular peoples sites dont work.

My mom was telling me the other night she is getting an iPad because her laptop is driving her nuts and is so slow. I told her again, "you do realise you can't play farmville on it" as she is hooked on that. She didn't realise, but was happy to plunk down and buy one because it had a web broswer so assumed it would work.

Bet lots of less savy people make the same mistake when the in store Apple people tell them its the best web experience, yet fail to mention a lot of sites wont work.

I'm not getting one.
Click to expand...

Boohoo! 10 million other people will get it because they love shiny Apple logo! ;)
 
SactoGuy18 said:
I personally think that Apple may approach the point of treading on very thin ice legally over banning Flash from the iPad.

Adobe could cite the following legal precedent:

1) David Hyatt--an Apple employee--is one of two editors of the current W3C draft specification for HTML 5.0. That right there potentially raises conflict of interest issues, pushing a new, unproven technology to the exclusion of proven technology.

2) Adobe could show that the iPad's A4 CPU has enough "oomph" to run Flash 10.1 safely with little effect on battery performance. If that is the case, then Apple could be in violation of one of the aspects of the 1914 Clayton Antitrust Act.

And the European Union antitrust authorities--who are very aggressive in antitrust cases--may soon start asking questions on why Apple deliberately banned Flash in favor of an unproven technology that one of its employees had a hand in crafting the current draft specification.

If Apple does not offer tools to help web designers and programmers transition from Flash-based web sites to HTML 5.0-based web sites, then Apple could be in legal hot water pretty soon. Hopefully, Apple will offer such tools by WWDC 2010, which web designers and programmers will welcome to begin a transition to a post-Flash world.
Click to expand...

No. Apple doesn't make money off of HTML5, it is an open standard. Even if they did iPad users would also have to be a majority of internet users since it isn't antitrust if you don't have a monopoly, hence why Microsoft got in trouble, Using OS monopoly to get a browser monopoly. Shouldn't google get in trouble aswell? they are pushing HTML5 with youtube and the other editor is Ian Hickson an employee of theirs.
 
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