Stolen MacBook Pro Schematics Confirm Apple's Plans to Add More Ports and Remove Touch Bar

[tubular]

Part of it is determined by the I/O capabilities of the CPU/GPU - especially mobile chips.

Excellent point. You have to start from the CPU and work outward to determine the possible I/O capabilities. The Intel chips come with choices, choices, choices for I/O -- but you pay for that flexibility in power and heat. With Apple Silicon, Apple gets to decide what I/O is actually going to be used, and can forgo the rest, with savings in efficiency.

Having said that, I'm dying to see what their GPU can do.

 

[Tozovac]

In response to whiny entitled people doing what they do best.

I thought we clarified this earlier.

All you clarified was how your proposed architecture would clearly benefit you.

Are you by chance in a design or engineering profession? One good metric for evaluating the robustness of a design direction is to imagine its extension as far out as possible. Does a design direction get better as you increase its implementation? Consider Apple who likes to make things thinner, simpler, and more minimal than the previous year. At what point does removing ports, keys, bezels, pixel details, etc. become more bad than acceptably good? Consider fuel economy. The higher that vehicle Miles per gallon or EV range goes, it would seem the better the result to consumers. For a truly robust examination, one would also have to consider the potential effects from decreased reliance on oil in the case of 200mpg vehicles across the board, or a 100x increase in battery capacities from today - surely those sound excellent to us individually. And there’d be a benefit to reducing our dependence on fossil fuels…just as surely there would be an impact globally To the fossil fuel industry, both those employed by it and foreign countries who depend upon it for their sole livelihood. Economic effects and potentially international relations effects. Not an easy decision to imagine.

Considering your point that Apple should force change via their ports — Why stay so stuck in the 70s by still talking about cables. What’s your thought on Apple‘s promoting wholesale change to high speed wireless data transfer immediately. Computer makers can force the issue by eradicating all ports across-the-board, To encourage the industry to develop wireless data transfer solutions greater than those of TB4. And go to Qi charging. You might feel some pain at first, since your thunderbolt for hardware would need to find wireless connectivity to your MacBook but you would gain beyond just four ports of connectivity, and we would all be on the same level, required to adapt to supplying wireless adapters to gain connectivity to all the legacy hardware out there. With putting everybody at a similar level of required adoption, the change might be accepted easier than providing a mix of physical ports that appears here to never make everybody happy completely. If forced change is expected to start via computer makers, this would be a place to start, no?

 

[Stephen.R]

All you clarified was how your proposed architecture would clearly benefit you.

By "you", you mean "anyone not using specifically HDMI and SD cards", surely? Because anyone not using those two things, just loses ports. Even the people using those two things might still just be losing out. If someone uses a current model with two HDMI displays, via a TB3 to dual HDMI adapter, they wouldn't gain anything by Apple swapping TB3 for HDMI - they still need an adapter (which they have, and provides two HDMI ports), and now they've lost one of the Tb3 ports.

Considering your point that Apple should force change via their ports

My point? When did I claim apple should "force change"?

What’s your thought on Apple‘s promoting wholesale change to high speed wireless data transfer immediately.

It's a terrible idea.

To encourage the industry to develop wireless data transfer solutions greater than those of TB4.

There are so many problems with this analogy it's hard to know where to start.

this would be a place to start, no

Understanding the point of view you're arguing against rather than creating grand straw men of ridiculous proportions would be a better place to start.

 

[Tozovac]

Part of it is determined by the I/O capabilities of the CPU/GPU - especially mobile chips.

…

Plus, throwing a couple of the most commonly needed dongles in with the 2016 iMac wouldn't have solved the problem but it would have calmed a few tempers...

What a helpful and thoughtful post. Thank you. I am not a computer engineer so posts like this really help put things into objective perspective. Engineering is all about solving requirements/needs within identified limitations while balancing trade-offs, be they technical, marketing, or financial. There are multiple reasons identified in this thread by others why desktop computers usually have more ports built-in than a laptop. I think as we consumers expect more and more, it’s easy to lose sight of how a laptop is targeted to be all-in-one as much possible. If long battery life is highly desired by all, with a desire to not need to tote around a power cable/brick all day ideally, why is it fair for some to expect others to just buy into toting around adapters to connect to the plethora of hardware in use today and for the foreseeable future. Why? It’s the “Not in my backyard” mentality.

 

[Stephen.R]

why is it fair for some to expect others to just buy into toting around adapters to connect to the plethora of hardware in use today and for the foreseeable future. Why? It’s the “Not in my backyard” mentality.

The adapter others have suggest you 'tote around' to get HDMI support weighs about 18g, measures about 5 x 2.1 x 1.1 cm, and has a ~15cm cord. It costs $10. It does not require an external power adapter. It'll also work with your iPad, or any other USB-C host device that supports HDMI video out.

Alternatively you could buy a dual-port version which is a little bigger, but lets you run two HDMI displays/projectors from one port.

Alternatively you could buy a cable, which is longer, and negates the need for you to otherwise carry a HDMI cable.

Alternatively you could buy a small, bus powered hub, which provides other single-use ports, such as ethernet, or USB type-A, or VGA, or a card reader.


The single 'solution' you and others have suggested those of us who don't use HDMI should use, to get back in connectivity what MBP's have had for the last half-decade, only exists as a desktop item, with an external power adapter.

The smallest of these items is 11.4 x 7 x 1.8 cm; It weights 180g; There are no specs listed on the size or weight of the AC adapter, but I've previously posted screengrabs from their official unboxing of it, which clearly show the AC adapter is significantly larger, and generally, AC adapters are very dense, heavy devices. If the whole setup is less than half a kilo you're probably lucky. Oh and it costs $200.


Oh sorry, I forgot. The other solution was "buy a different computer", ignoring the previous half-decade of the ports working just fine.


Why is it fair for some to expect others to just buy into toting around AC powered hubs to connect to the plethora of hardware they've been able to connect to for the last half-decade? Why? It's the "give me my ****ing HDMI port, no matter the consequences" mentality.

 

[MacBH928]

...yet new products are still appearing with USB-A. not to mention the vast majority of USB-C products that only use it to provide the same old regular USB 3.1, DisplayPort or HDMI connection as before (and probably have a USB C to A cable or adapter in the box)...

That could be a hint that maybe, just maybe USB-C could be a solution looking for a problem... at least for anything other than a handful of high-end devices that actually need Thunderbolt.


If you think people are hanging on to RS232 or SCSI or coax ethernet (all of which have been dredged up by USB-C evangelists in this thread) out of stubbornness then you obviously don't remember 9600 bps connections, huge clunky SCSI connectors, device IDs, missing terminators, soldering up weird RS423-to-RS232 cables... In the case of genuinely obsolete technologies like those, people only hang on to them because they need them for genuine legacy equipment. In the case of RS232 that's often in the form of giant CNC milling machines that cost as much as a house (and fill most of one) or because the cable they'd need to replace is several miles long and/or threaded through the bowels of their building... and I don't see any of that relative handful of people complaining that they've needed a dongle since the 1990s (although, of course, USB-C means they now need a dongle for that dongle...).

That's simply not the case with USB-A, DisplayPort, HDMI - not only are they still common on brand new equipment, but in the majority of cases USB-C/Thunderbolt is using the exact same protocol under the hood - and all USB-C achieves is to make them more expensive to implement and require a more complex cable with embedded power conversion circuitry. The technologies aren't outdated - USB-A can quite happily carry 10Gbps - and only the fastest SSDs, DisplayPort 1.4 and the latest HDMI can drive 8K@60Hz - and are still being actively developed... in fact, until a year or two ago, Thunderbolt was holding back display technology by only supporting DP 1.2 when DP 1.4 (which could support up to 8k with a single cable) was rolling out.

You can keep claiming that these ports are obsolete/legacy/whatever - and making false comparisons with ancient technologies that were already bottlenecks & out-performed by their replacements 20 years ago - but that won't change the reality that they self-evidently are not.

Yes, Thunderbolt is good for single-cable docking, a handful of ultra-high bandwidth devices and external PCIe racks... which is probably why Apple are keeping 2 (if not 3 - it's only me speculating that the third port will be USB only) ports on the MBP and, most likely, at least 2 controllers, so the bandwidth hasn't been cut. I wouldn't buy a new computer that didn't have some Thunderbolt capability for high-speed I/O - the issue is the stupid "all or nothing" attitude and the artificial bottleneck created by using USB-C as the only connection for display, power, low-bandwidth I/O etc. that wouldn't otherwise compete for resources.

I agree with you but I still think eventually replacing everything with one cable type is better. I rather have 4 USB-C than an HDMI , ethernet, USB-A, and a headphone jack. If we can use USB-C (or any 1 connection type) for everything or near everything that would be better. Just look how much USB-A took over the old different port types.

 

[theluggage]

Why is it fair for some to expect others to just buy into toting around AC powered hubs to connect to the plethora of hardware they've been able to connect to for the last half-decade?

...because wanting to just carry the MBP and still be able to plug into one or two of the most common peripherals you might find in meeting rooms/offices (HDMI and USB-A) is a very real issue, whereas Needing all 4 TB3 ports "on the road" is either a very unusual set of circumstances or (most likely, because it really doesn't make sense) just plain made up .

The proposed MBP will still have at least 2 thunderbolt ports (and possibly 3 - the idea that the third port will be USB only is purely my speculation and not something I'm betting the farm on until we actually see the specs of the M2)

You'll only have to "tote around" that AC-powered hub if you're already "toting around" a "plethora of hardware" (all of which needs Thunderbolt, and none of which has a daisy-chain port) - just slip it in the giant flight case alongside your two 5k displays, RAID array and rackmount A/V interface (good news: that means you can leave out the MBP power brick)...

That's assuming that the choice of the 1-2 TB4 hubs currently available doesn't improve once the first machine that people might actually want them for is actually announced...

Meanwhile, back on the desk where you might realistically have all those TB peripherals, plug in one or two of those hubs and you've suddenly got all the TB3/4 ports you could dream of, plus a neat one-cable docking system. I'm probably going to end up getting one myself - but for the desk, where using adapters isn't such a pain, not to carry around.

 

[theluggage]

I agree with you but I still think eventually replacing everything with one cable type is better. I rather have 4 USB-C than an HDMI , ethernet, USB-A, and a headphone jack. If we can use USB-C (or any 1 connection type) for everything or near everything that would be better. Just look how much USB-A took over the old different port types.

Absolutely - eventually - but not while the majority of peripherals either (a) need an adapter, (b) don't gain any performance from the new, more complex, interface or (c) both.

If you look at the "old different port types" most of them were a world of hurt even before a viable replacement appeared. Especially on the Mac: ADB and Localtalk were totally proprietary, RS423 was annoyingly different from RS232 which, in turn, was slow and quirky, most affordable printers were parallel-only and SCSI was increasingly restricted to expensive, server-grade products (...plus, bulky cables/connectors, device IDs, terminators...) - USB was a real improvement for anything other than a high-speed hard drive (ISTR that Apple's plan "A" was that USB would co-exist with Firewire, the latter being the "pro" option). Added advantage: USB was already sitting unused in many PCs because Microsoft needed a kick up the backside from Apple to make them put drivers in Win95.

Today, the problem is that HDMI and USB-A weren't broke and didn't need fixing (beyond a standard "this way up" label). 5 or 10 Gbps USB 3.1 is still more than adequate for the majority of purposes, 10/20 Gbps USB3.2 doesn't seem to have taken off and while Thunderbolt/USB4 is a "good thing" it still comes at a hefty price premium so it will only be used in the relative minority of cases where it is really needed.

Then, you have to look at where the resources come from: USB3, Thunderbolt, HDMI, DisplayPort all fundamentally use the same differential twisted-pair serial connection so it is true that they don't need different cables - but the first two consume PCIe lanes from the CPU while the second two consume video streams from the GPU. Feeding both of those limited resources through a single port creates an artificial bottleneck - plug a DisplayPort display into a TB3 port and you can't use it for a high-speed data device. Distributing those resources between multiple ports needs extra switching logic which adds complexity, cost and power consumption. Add power in/out to the mix - a third resource that doesn't depend on the others - and the practical upshot is that universal ports are far more expensive (in terms of money, CPU/GPU resources, complexity and power) to implement than dedicated ones - the result is the "port rationing" that you see across the Apple range. If we could have 6-8 TB4 ports on a MBP then at least we'd just have to worry about dongles, not hunting down a multi-function hub with just the right permutation of ports...

It gets even worse on desktop PCs where people have PCIe-based GPUs so you'll see Thunderbolt cards that need fugly external video jumper cables just to deliver video over USB-C/TB. On the Mac Pro that's a large part of the need for the (expensive, proprietary) MPX card format.

In the future maybe we'll see internal changes in CPU/GPU architecture so that Systems-on-a-chip just have

Yes, everything on one port is great for "single cable docking" but there's a clue in that term as to how many ports capable of "single port docking" you actually need... Also, having display and data sharing a cable may have been a good idea when we were talking about 1440p@60Hz displays - but with the move to 4k, 8k, HDR, faster refresh rates. the bandwidth needed for display is increasing faster than the bandwidth of TB/USB4 so it makes less and less sense to share cables (plug two cables in to the computer? Oh, the humanity...). We've already seen TB (and hence one of the most common USB-C implementations) stuck on DisplayPort 1.2 until recently...

USB-C didn't really deliver on the "one port does it all" promise, and certainly not on the "one cable does it all". A USB-C port on a host could be anything from USB 2 only to USB3.2/TB3/DisplayPort/HDMI/Audio/100W power with all the trimmings. When it launched, even USB-C to USB-C cables came in perplexing permutations of USB2/USB3/Passive TB/Active TB/20W/60W etc. although that seems to have settled down a bit now. HDMI and DisplayPort adapter cables are considerably more complex than their dedicated counterparts (and cost more unless you risk "buy cheap, buy twice") - even DP cables need an embedded power management thingy and HDMI/VGA cables need to be active DP-to-HDMI converters (well, there is a HDMI alt mode specified, no idea what, if anything, implements it, so the practical upshot of that is another cable compatibility issue). At best, that's just more to go wrong.

The nice thing about single-purpose ports with different connectors is that we all learn from an early age that square pegs fit into square holes without excessive use of the hammer. Well, most of us.

Plus, of course:

 

[Nütztjanix]

Self-reflectivness is something you still need to learn, huh? Eventually you will.
On the one hand you state "They're not useful to myself and many others" and on the other "But apparently only your needs matter". I could turn this exactly the other way round, right? Such quotes are ignorant and stupid, so in that terms I'm not going to waste my time with you.

However, one thing is certain: You can't even prove that you represent a majority, just that you have a very loud voice here yourself, obviously. However, I have evidence that people who embrace the return of additional parts form the majority:

1. In all international as well as German forums, blogs, news-feeds and portals; comments expressing approval with the ports leak have more upvotes and positives responses than the ones stubbornly defending USB-C only
2. Apple wouldn't even consider bringing back Magsafe, HDMI and SD if the majority of people and reviews were positive about the USB-C only decision back in 2016, which was never the case, same with butterfly & touchbar

We are not talking about Apple going to kill USB-C or your awesome dongles. You can keep and use them. They are about to remove one port of four to get three other ones in return, ffs. To even fuzz about that rather than simply being happy for the people who a willing to buy a MacBook again, strengthening the marketshare, is absolutely ridiculous. With that being said, cheers and bye.

We're not advocating USB-C. We're advocating Thunderbolt. That's the point you lot are constantly missing.

...so, none of them are using USB-C or thunderbolt, so it’s not like you can use them without an adapter anyway. I bet you an internet that some or all of the DP displays have HDMI inputs as well. HDMI to DVI is a simple passive cable. Heck, I use DP whenever possible - and if Apple were going to make me my own special personalised laptop I‘d go with a DP++ port, but that ain’t gonna happen, and HDMI is going to be the most use to the most people.




...and you gain extra dedicated power and display ports that mean you don’t have to waste your high-speed data I/o ports on unrelated functions, plus the new USB4 hub technology that will let you expand the number of TB ports to 4-6 with at least the same bandwidth as before (if Apple gimp the i/o and display capabilities of the M2 that’s another story). Yet to see a use case where you’d need to carry a USB4 hub on the road unless you were already carrying a truckload of bulky peripherals...

If you need more than three it’s not a very good do-it-all port.

None of the DP-ones has HDMI. Oh wait, they do, but it's unusable, because, as has been mentioned, HDMI constantly lags behind DisplayPort in terms of capability. Those are LG 31MU97Z DCI 4K displays. At the time those came to market, HDMI only supported (DCI) 4K at 30Hz. Not acceptable. You need DisplayPort to get 4096x2160@60Hz with 10bit colour.
They actually do have Thunderbolt (2) inputs though.

 

[CasualFanboy]

The Intel chips come with choices, choices, choices for I/O -- but you pay for that flexibility in power and heat. With Apple Silicon, Apple gets to decide what I/O is actually going to be used, and can forgo the rest, with savings in efficiency.

That's a good way to phrase this new architecture, and so I don't even understand the hype over these benefits. I have a 2016 mbp and while some of the hardware design choices are bad (butterfly keyboard, touchbar, loose USB-C), there's very little to complain about.

Compared to any other comparably equipped brand of laptop, it still has better battery life. Better graphics, touchpad, UI, and speakers.

I'm hard-pressed to figure out why my next purchase should be an M1. I don't know what apps I will no longer be able to use. I detest Big Sur. I never find myself in situations where I need a full day of battery.... and my laptop fans don't rev up without a very good reason and even then, it's not extremely hot.

Seriously I will probably just buy the most up-to-date 2020 16" I can find. And I will install Mojave.

 

[Stephen.R]

blah blah blah.

Can you not not take a hint? Wait it wasn't a hint though. It was a pretty clear statement. Let me try again.

I'm done with your dismissal of any other use-case except those you personally decree as "important" or "common" enough to matter, regardless of how long those use-cases have been supported by Apple products.

I'm done with your ignoring of context.

I'm done with your suggestions to use non existent products.

I'm done with your false equivalence complaints about how poorly other vendors implement a standard.


I'm just done with you. Please stop replying to me.

 

[AZhappyjack]

All new macbook pro with more ports. Greatest laptop ever. 3 yrs later apple removes ports. 3 yrs later all new macbook pro with more ports

That's what "courage" looks like.

 

[mielie]

I know I am probably in a minority here, but I think that going back to multiple different port types and removing the Touch Bar is a big step back. I must be one of the few people that uses the Touch Bar daily. I love being able to interact with the computer without disturbing the screen, especially adjusting the volume and other settings when viewing fullscreen video. As a developer I've written several Touch Bar tools to help me with my workflows and it sounds like I might have to throw that all away!

I had also made the jump to USB-C/Thunderbolt. I was initially a little irritated at having to change out some peripherals, but I've fully adopted this port standard and have absolutely no need for anything else. Frankly, cluttering up the side of my laptop with HDMI, SD Card, etc will just remind me that Apple are going backwards and not forwards.

I can't argue with the clear performance advantages of the new Apple Silicon. But when they do eventually announce their new machine, and if they do end up adding extra ports and removing the Touch Bar, I hope they keep the 13" 2021 MacBook Pro available because that would be my preferred option.

 

[Tozovac]

I'm done with your suggestions to use non existent products.

The problem is you completely, and I mean completely, miss the point that those suggestions don’t work for some of our use profiles. We knew about adapters well before your repetitive suggestions that come across as way too preachy and with an approach of “what works for me should work for you,” which completely works against your message.

For many of us, making a laptop as all-in-one as possible and not needing extra adaptation/adapters is not at all a solution for our needs and would be as PITA as having to carry around a small, inexpensive mouse.

I’ve said it before, perhaps the very biggest issue is that Apple system computers are made only by Apple, and that an aspect about their current laptops is just awful - the MBA is way too similar to the MBP and have strayed far from the original MBA’s intent of being “minimal” via “flexible” ports instead of a variety of ports. If both have essentially equal power now via the M1, wouldn’t it be great if the MBA headed back to its original minimalist theme - four USB-C ports, no MagSafe. Then the MBP with the same processor and more ports to meet to a certain workhorse all-in-one ethic that would appeal to many, even if it’s a little heavier and thicker. Give both the same processor/storage/RAM options. Give both a touchbar or no touchbar, whatever, but differentiate them more than the silliness that is today with very little difference between the two. Hopefully that’s what we’ll see this year because what the current MBA/MBP hardware line-up has evolved to makes little sense

Problems are solved for “both sides” of the “argument“ in threads like this.

As an aside it would then be interesting to be able to compare the sales volume of each.

 

[tubular]

For many of us, making a laptop as all-in-one as possible and not needing extra adaptation/adapters is not at all a solution for our needs and would be as PITA as having to carry around a small, inexpensive mouse.

There are enough people plugging enough laptops via HDMI into enough conference room displays on any day to justify the HDMI port.

I don't use the SD card port for anything except occasionally flashing a drive for a Raspberry Pi, but apparently there are enough people using them with photographic equipment for it to live on as well.

I think there's still room for the Touch Bar as an option. I don't want one, but the folks who like it really like it.

 

[Tozovac]

There are enough people plugging enough laptops via HDMI into enough conference room displays on any day to justify the HDMI port.

I don't use the SD card port for anything except occasionally flashing a drive for a Raspberry Pi, but apparently there are enough people using them with photographic equipment for it to live on as well.

I think there's still room for the Touch Bar as an option. I don't want one, but the folks who like it really like it.

My personal ideal, for kicks and grins: MBP with four data ports minimum with at least one USB-C/TB4 and at least one USB-A. MagSafe, headphone jack, Touch Bar and physical function keys. HDMI would be nice and you bet I'd use it often if available, especially if there was only one TB4 port. SD card slot at one time was very, very nice because of Apple's then-unrealistically expensive upcharges for storage RAM. If one were to appear then I'd definitely swap over my 256 flush-mount SanDisk SD card for a little extra storage. Headphone jack is a must for those who do multi-track recording, rather than rely on taking up a data slot just for a headphone. My basic point is, of all the ports being conjectured over for the next-gen MBP, I'd use all, and rather regularly.

 

[Tozovac]

I think there's still room for the Touch Bar as an option. I don't want one, but the folks who like it really like it.

I know I'd use it. I just wouldn't want to give up the physical F keys, which I use constantly. They're always there, at the ready, and are instant to enact. Hiding them away under a multi-function Touch Bar under the guise of having a cleaner keyboard set-up is too large a functional back-step.

Apple has mis-stepped several times regarding the keyboard for the sake of minimalism and/or aesthetics but with significantly-felt (by many) functional backstops...butterfly keyboard, no Esc key, no T-shaped arrow keys, displaced F keys... Am hoping after the past 6 years of experimentation (and now that Jony Ive's office has likely finally been completely cleared out), Apple has re-learned "what just works."

I have yet to use an HVAC system in a car that's better than the tried-and-true 3-wheel HVAC control - one for fan speed, one for temperature, and the 3rd for vent settings. With A/C, rear defroster, and external/internal settings in the middle of each of the 3. Sometimes technology matures to a point of near perfection, the perfect balance of simplicity and function. But then enter the Designers and/or Marketing folk full of ideas and passion and ambition, but maybe with not enough trips around the sun to have been around the block enough times to have a sense of things, and an inability to identify the importance of certain trade-offs for the sake of their grand idea(s).

 

[Stephen.R]

miss the point that those suggestions don’t work for some of our use profiles

Don't work, or aren't convenient?

my inconvenience

It’s more about the convenience.

Did all the explanations about how a HDMI port literally does not work for other people make you change your argument, because "it's inconvenient" sounds as selfish as it is? You somehow expect to now make an argument that the adapters and cables and hubs that people have been using for the last half decade, "don't work"? Good luck with that.


What you miss, is that a TB3 port provides either of us with the ability to run a display, of practically any type we want.

A HDMI port provides you with the ability to run a HDMI display.

You gain some convenience. Everyone not using HDMI loses functionality.

For many of us, making a laptop as all-in-one as possible and not needing extra adaptation/adapters

Maybe you're picking the wrong device if your usage profile needs the connectivity of an on-board HDMI port so often when out & about with your laptop.

There are enough people plugging enough laptops via HDMI into enough conference room displays on any day to justify the HDMI port.

Really? What's "enough"? What's the number?

SD card slot at one time was very, very nice because of Apple's then-unrealistically expensive upcharges for storage RAM.

... I tried to just ignore that you wrote "storage RAM" and assume you meant "storage and RAM".. or "SSDs"... or... I dunno. What did you mean?

Anyway. The entire "Retina" series of MBP's (2012-2015) had internal SSDs. Initially mSATA based, and then PCIe from 2013. So, 6Gb/s, then 8Gb/s, then 16Gb/s, then 31.5Gb/s... and you're somehow going to claim that an SD card attached internally via USB2 is a viable alternative to getting a larger SSD? I mean, sure, I guess it does provide more storage space. But even a USB3 flash drive would have been quicker and probably cheaper.

I know I am probably in a minority here, but I think that going back to multiple different port types and removing the Touch Bar is a big step back.

Don't confuse the constant whining of "I want a HDMI port" for any kind of actual majority. It's been half a decade, and sales of MBP's have not plummeted due to lack of single use ports.

MacRumors is largely an echo chamber of complainers.

 

[Tozovac]

Don't work, or aren't convenient?

Yes. Both. One and the same, in a way.

Once again^3, the function of computers is provide convenience. Convenience covers a lot of bases, by your definition, my definition, and others'. So stop and save your time trying to win some argument over word definitions.

Did all the explanations about how a HDMI port literally does not work for other people make you change your argument, because "it's inconvenient" sounds as selfish as it is? You somehow expect to now make an argument that the adapters and cables and hubs that people have been using for the last half decade, "don't work"? Good luck with that.

Wonder if Apple will be similarly selfish at the next MB upgrade...time will tell!

What you miss, is that a TB3 port provides either of us with the ability to run a display, of practically any type we want.

A HDMI port provides you with the ability to run a HDMI display.

You gain some convenience. Everyone not using HDMI loses functionality.

The return of the preaching to try to teach us to recognize and use options we've known about for years but don't fit our usage style for convenience and function (redundant)...the preaching that's futile and not what some of us want for convenience/function.

Anyway. The entire "Retina" series of MBP's (2012-2015) had internal SSDs. Initially mSATA based, and then PCIe from 2013. So, 6Gb/s, then 8Gb/s, then 16Gb/s, then 31.5Gb/s... and you're somehow going to claim that an SD card attached internally via USB2 is a viable alternative to getting a larger SSD? I mean, sure, I guess it does provide more storage space. But even a USB3 flash drive would have been quicker and probably cheaper.

So many (purposefully?) missed points. USB3 flash drive is temporary add-on appendage that sticks out or dangles attached, that needs stored, carried, tracked, attached, detached, stored...on a given day and which many of us are trying to avoid. The SanDisk 256gb SD card I leave permanently installed in my 2014 is...essentially....permanent, convenient, and much cheaper at the time than seeking an additional 256gb SSD from Apple, even if with slower transfer speeds, etc. Hits all the marks.

Don't confuse the constant whining of "I want a HDMI port" for any kind of actual majority. It's been half a decade, and sales of MBP's have not plummeted due to lack of single use ports.

If the rumors are true of its return, and if Apple is lauded by some as always knowing what's best, then it will be interesting times soon...

MacRumors is largely an echo chamber of complainers.

You said it! And said it! And said it. And said it.

 

[Stephen.R]

Yes. Both. One and the same, in a way.

... something being slightly inconvenient is in no way the same as "doesn't work".

So stop and save your time trying to win some argument over word definitions

Trying to win? I'm trying to get you to use common definitions of words so that the sentences you write make sense.


Please, find me one other person on this forum who will agree with you that "slightly inconvenient" is the same as "doesn't work". Just one god damn person. **** it, don't even worry about the "slightly". You find one other person who'll agree that "inconvenient" means the same thing as "doesn't work". ONE ****ING PERSON.

Wonder if Apple will be similarly selfish at the next MB upgrade...

... unless Apple are adding the port to satisfy their staff regardless of what their customers use, because said staff for some reason all use HDMI displays and not say, the displays Apple has shipped for the last decade, them changing the ports is unlikely to be about 'selfishness' on their part.

The return of the preaching to try to teach us to recognize and use options we've known about for years but don't fit our usage style for convenience and function (redundant)...the preaching that's futile and not what some of us want for convenience/function.

Well I'm glad you're back to admitting it's about convenience for you

So many (purposefully?) missed points.

Ok. ... you have to unplug it sometimes. Not sure what the "so many" points is.

even if with slower transfer speeds

So you're willing to ignore the abysmal transfer speeds, but needing to unplug it is too much?


I sense a trend here, seriously. Actual functionality offered is never your top priority. You're most worried about the convenience of the solution, even if it has limits.

Perhaps your earlier suggestion of differentiating the MBA and MBP would be the best solution after all - but with the roles reversed. Give the Air it's HDMI port, and middle-managers and yes-men can buy them like coconut water.


Your little dig at TB3 ports being about "minimalism" (and thus suiting the Air's "original design") is also completely off base. TB3 can provide minimalism if you jus plug in a single display which does power.

But it also provides unparalleled levels of I/O.

if Apple is lauded by some as always knowing what's best

Some people always claim Apple knows best. I certainly hope you're not suggesting I'm one of them. If you are, I suggest you go read some of my other posts.

 

[tubular]

My personal ideal, for kicks and grins: MBP with four data ports minimum with at least one USB-C/TB4 and at least one USB-A. MagSafe, headphone jack, Touch Bar and physical function keys. HDMI would be nice and you bet I'd use it often if available, especially if there was only one TB4 port. SD card slot at one time was very, very nice because of Apple's then-unrealistically expensive upcharges for storage RAM. If one were to appear then I'd definitely swap over my 256 flush-mount SanDisk SD card for a little extra storage. Headphone jack is a must for those who do multi-track recording, rather than rely on taking up a data slot just for a headphone. My basic point is, of all the ports being conjectured over for the next-gen MBP, I'd use all, and rather regularly.

Not looking for a new laptop at the moment -- I bought the last pre-Jony-fied 15", which they were still selling in October 2017 when I picked mine up, because the 2016 models were disconnected from pragmatic reality and I thought it might take Apple another half decade before they offered a laptop worth buying with my own money again.

I was especially sore on that point because the Mac mini line-up had taken a big cognitive hit in 2014, just a little after I bought my quadcore, and it felt that Apple had lobotomized and then abandoned one of their great machines, even as they were simultaneously doing with the Mac Pro. Things had very very clearly gone haywire, and it seemed entirely possible that the 2015-era 15" could be the last one they made worth buying. I didn't want to be stuck thinking, "Man, I should have bought that one when I could." It was a stretch, but it's hard not to feel vindicated.

So there's a whole lot of me that says, just take that machine -- the best pre-M1 Mac ever made, maybe -- and Silicon-ize it.

What have we seen since then?

- the One Port to Rule All is as much an obstacle as an enabler, and never actually was One Port even on its own terms
- MagSafe turns out, among other things, to be a great way to prevent wear and tear on your power connection over the long term
- the Touch Bar was not self-evidently a work of genius
- and don't even mention butterfly keyboards.

HDMI and headphone jacks have a reason to be. I'd like at least one USB-A just because of thumb drives. I don't use SD cards enough to need the slot, but some people do, and I did look at the SD drive extension modules when Apple had base storage configuration of about thirty-seven kilobytes and the increments above that were extortionate. The return of MagSafe is a big win. The rest of the ports I'm not that hung up about -- not worth getting all-caps EXCITABLE BOY about.

 

[Stephen.R]

I bought the last pre-Jony-fied 15", which they were still selling in October 2017 when I picked mine up

Apple was selling 20 year old laptops in 2017? For real?

 

[lilkwarrior]

That can be valid, but it seems for some reason Apple can't or doesn't want to have 4 thunderbolt ports on M1 macs, as evidenced in the M1 Mac Mini. Plus regular macbooks always had only 2 pesky usb-c/thunderbolt ports anyway, if adding magsafe counts as an extra, it has to be win/win no matter how you see it.

M1 is a entry-level CPU; no Macbook pro or Mac Pro meant for mid-level & high-end creative work has such limitations

 

[kyykesko]

USB C is the best thing to happen to device charging in decades.

I absolutely DO NOT WANT to return to proprietary chargers and connectors. Apple, hope the Magsafe is optional and this will remain chargeable from a USB C port.

THIS. If magsafe is the only charging option, I won't buy the computer.

Kind of funny they remove chargers from iPhones to protect the nature and then try to push this garbage. Or maybe they plan to sell the macbook charger separately, too? Sorry nature, can't stop the money coming in!

 

[kyykesko]

of course it will....the magsafe is just an optional thing, to keep the others 3 usbC ports free

There's no "of course" there. Check most of the Windows machines - they may have several USB-C ports but very often only one of them works for charging. It'd be entirely possible Apple did a similar blunder and either made some or all of the USB-C ports not compatible with charging to "protect the environment" and "saving resources" etc.

One of the things I love about my MBPro is that I have ports on both sides and I can use whichever one of them I want at a given time to charge my computer. It doesn't matter if the closest power socket is on my right or left side, I can always pick the most convenient option.

One could argue Apple would never do such a stupid thing, but looking back you can see they've managed to mess up so many times before. And now that they realized they could make so much more money forcing people to buy magsafe chargers again there's no reason why they wouldn't force everyone to pay that extra $100 (times 2-3 in many cases).