Surface Book 2 vs MBP

[leman]

Yes the 7th Gen 45W quad core CPU is a stronger chip, equally the performance of the new 8th Gen U series quad cores is not poor as some would have you think. Personally I doubt there would be any meaningful difference in performance, unless the usage is intensively CPU bound for prolonged periods.

Exactly. Kaby Lake R is optimised for burst, 45W quad cores are optimised for both burst and sustained performance. If all you need is burst (Office, everyday computing, Internet etc.), Kaby Lake R is incredible. Once you need sustain, its a significant downgrade from a 45W CPU. Of course, most reviews focus on burst performance (e.g. Geekbench). In other words, the Kaby Lake R is an ideal 'casual' CPU. And there is nothing wrong with that. I found it very strange though that so many people would consider it an upgrade over even a 7700HQ. Is it just because there is "Gen 8" written on the spec sheet?

If you need to run the system so hard, thin & light designs are never going to be the optimal solution, as by default their design reduces the cooling capacity.

The 15" MBP works very well demanding sustained CPU tasks.

 

[soulreaver99]

I'm a huge fan of the Surface Book. Had the SB with Performance Base and loved it. Regretted selling it to downsize. Thinking of selling both my rMB and my 2016 MBP to get the new SB2. I haven't been this excited for a laptop in a long time.

 

[Adamantoise]

https://www.computerworld.com/artic...-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html

Right, because consumers like you and I have the same enterprise needs as IBM

Can you stop being obtuse for a moment and actually tell me in your own words what exactly makes Windows 10 "garbage"?

 

[ahostmadsen]

but its significantly weaker once you need sustained performance, that is, when you put your CPU under load for prolonged period of times, as in any professional application.

Exactly my use case.

I was thinking if I should switch to Windows when I bought my 15" MBP, specifically the SB; I really like, at least in theory, what MS is doing with the 2 in 1, although on the other side there is the whole Apple ecosystem. But the nail in the coffin was that the old SB did not even have a quadcore processor, and although it has that now, perhaps it's still inferior.

 

[Adamantoise]

Exactly my use case.

I was thinking if I should switch to Windows when I bought my 15" MBP, specifically the SB; I really like, at least in theory, what MS is doing with the 2 in 1, although on the other side there is the whole Apple ecosystem. But the nail in the coffin was that the old SB did not even have a quadcore processor, and although it has that now, perhaps it's still inferior.

MS seems to think no one needs more than 15W in a mobile device for some reason. Heck I'd even settle for 28W like the 13" MBP.

I get that "fanless" is a huge selling point, but they need to understand that the average consumer doesn't care as long as the noise levels are well managed.

Tech blogs seem to have this power to create some obsessive use case and make manufacturers fall in line. It's the same thing with phones and bezels.

 

[ahostmadsen]

I use MacOS myself for most of my computing and I have to say I don't understand what exactly is better about MacOS compared to Windows 10. They're different OSes, but nothing stands out as better to me.

I still think that there is an Apple design philosophy that permeates all their products: it just works. Apple has a very strong focus on intuitive interaction. MS has a different philosophy. My wife has a Surface Pro, and it seems that has designed with opposite philosophy: it never just works. I'm sure if she was a computer power user she could make it do what she wanted, but that's my point with an intuitive UI.

A concrete example: Time Machine. You just plug in a hard disk and say yes, and you're done. There is nothing similar in Windows.

 

[Adamantoise]

I still think that there is an Apple design philosophy that permeates all their products: it just works. Apple has a very strong focus on intuitive interaction. MS has a different philosophy. My wife has a Surface Pro, and it seems that has designed with opposite philosophy: it never just works. I'm sure if she was a computer power user she could make it do what she wanted, but that's my point with an intuitive UI.

A concrete example: Time Machine. You just plug in a hard disk and say yes, and you're done. There is nothing similar in Windows.

While Apple does have a keep it simple philosophy, I'm not sure that makes their OS any better per se.

Windows 10 "just works" ... Have you actually used the OS? Your example of time machine is a bad one, because Windows 10's backup "just works" as far as I'm concerned. Are you prompted to use any drive you just plugged in for backup? No, you type backup in the Windows bar and a few clicks you're done. You can search for any setting/preferences system wide (something that cannot be done in Mac OS yet for reasons I don't understand).

I suppose it all depends on the sort of user you are. I haven't had any issues with Windows 10. And I use both OSes daily. Mac OS is not better than Windows 10 to me. it's different sure, but there's absolutely nothing objectively better about it.

 

[throAU]

Right, because consumers like you and I have the same enterprise needs as IBM

Can you stop being obtuse for a moment and actually tell me in your own words what exactly makes Windows 10 "garbage"?

Phone home with no ability to disable it
DPI scaling issues on multiple displays
Start menu issues
Security/phone home policies reset at random whenever you patch it
Mandatory reboots if your machine is left on during update window - whether you had programs open doing stuff or not
Search that doesn’t work - try searching for “mmc” to run the program called mmc, without tacking .exe on the end for example - try advanced searches that used to work in Windows 7 for example emails from jeff last week. No longer a thing
Control panel vs pc settings vs computer management vs. whatever thing they bring in next week
Auto-push of crap software Microsoft want to push (e.g., Candy Crush)
The app store is a total dumpster fire


And that’s before we even get to the quality of the application software or licensing restrictions or crippling of “home” editions vs. say Windows 10 Pro or Enterprise.

 

[ahostmadsen]

While Apple does have a keep it simple philosophy, I'm not sure that makes their OS any better per se.

Windows 10 "just works" ... Have you actually used the OS? Your example of time machine is a bad one, because Windows 10's backup "just works" as far as I'm concerned. Are you prompted to use any drive you just plugged in for backup? No, you type backup in the Windows bar and a few clicks you're done. You can search for any setting/preferences system wide (something that cannot be done in Mac OS yet for reasons I don't understand).

I suppose it all depends on the sort of user you are. I haven't had any issues with Windows 10. And I use both OSes daily. Mac OS is not better than Windows 10 to me. it's different sure, but there's absolutely nothing objectively better about it.

Here is an article about how to windows backup, first one in Google search: https://lifehacker.com/how-to-back-up-your-computer-automatically-with-windows-1762867473. So much more complicated than time machine. Why have two different backup systems? Time-machine: plug in and you're done.

I'm not saying one is definitely better than the other. I'm saying there are different fundamental design philosophies, and you might prefer one or the other. So, for some users Mac OS is better, for some Windows, but they are not just two shades of the same color.
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DPI scaling issues on multiple displays

Exactly one of the issue my wife has with her SP: sometimes text is either ridiculously big or small. With my Macs, it pretty much always just works when I connect to various monitors.

 

[leman]

I suppose it all depends on the sort of user you are. I haven't had any issues with Windows 10. And I use both OSes daily. Mac OS is not better than Windows 10 to me. it's different sure, but there's absolutely nothing objectively better about it.

My problem gripe with Win10 is that its UI is a mess of legacy and new elements. It has some very interesting and well executed concepts (even though I disagree with many of their choices, e.g. the space-stealing ribbon), but they co-exist with some of the elements which were still present in Windows 95/98. Which can be awkward at times.

Probably favourite example: settings menus. Modern Windows has multiple various dialog panels for the same thing, using very different styles and often containing different elements. Finding information is very difficult on top of it. For instance, not long time ago I was helping our employee to install a network printer on his Win10 system (the printer was previously installed, but for some reason stopped working). So, the system correctly sees the zeroconf name of the printer, we add it. Then for some reason, instead of adopting the zeroconf name, Windows just lists the printer under its generic model number. Which is not very helpful, given that we have four floors with two of the same printer installed on every floor. So I try to figure out which IP/DNS is used. After a great journey through at least three different printer settings interfaces, various confusing context menu options (what is the difference between settings/properties/configuration) and dozens of tabs, I still wasn't able to find an actual path to printer. So its "try and see". Ok, we finally manage to identify which one of "HP LaserJet"s is the correct one. So I rename it. The name updates correctly into of the printing menus, but doesn't change in the last one. Why? No idea. It works now. Kind of.

And the above story sums up my Windows experience every time I have to use it for whatever reason. I play games on Windows (its installed in a TB3 external SSD). It boots very fast compared to macOS — but macOS boot time includes app startup times, Windows 10 doesn't. After Win is booted, I need to wait for another 15 seconds before the computer becomes usable as the apps are starting. My mouse randomly stops working due to driver crashes. I get kicked to desktop during a competetive gameplay session because "there is a new update". And so on. And don't get me started on seemingly random indexing (I still don't get the logic behind their search engine) or the structure of user home folder (which involves some super weird links to awkward locations).

 

[ahostmadsen]

While Apple does have a keep it simple philosophy, I'm not sure that makes their OS any better per se.

Windows 10 "just works" ... Have you actually used the OS? Your example of time machine is a bad one, because Windows 10's backup "just works" as far as I'm concerned. Are you prompted to use any drive you just plugged in for backup? No, you type backup in the Windows bar and a few clicks you're done. You can search for any setting/preferences system wide (something that cannot be done in Mac OS yet for reasons I don't understand).

I suppose it all depends on the sort of user you are. I haven't had any issues with Windows 10. And I use both OSes daily. Mac OS is not better than Windows 10 to me. it's different sure, but there's absolutely nothing objectively better about it.

And more about backup. The article I cited (the first one in Google search): "You may remember Backup and Restore from earlier versions of Windows. In Windows 10, the feature is actually called “Backup and Restore (Windows 7)“ so you’ll know it’s the older tool." File history is fundamentally flawed, so power users will know they need to use an outdated tool to get full backups. Whereas in OS X, there is time machine: plug in and be done.

 

[MBX]

Asking on the Apple forums of MBP vs Surface Book is like going to a Christian church and telling hey should I convert to Islam or Judaism.

Go wait until the device comes out and then test it. The Surface Books are more expensive and IMO more niche. If you are not going to use the surface pen and detach the screen, then get an XPS if you need Windows. There are plenty of high quality windows devices that will get the job done if you need windows or put windows on the mac. I have had the Surface Book in the past and it was a mixed bag. The screen was fantastic, the keyboard is better than the 2016 MBP's, and it has solid battery. But it was a hardware nightmare with detach issues, light bleed, and other problems. Software was solid and just a stable as MacOS.

Did you not even read my text I posted along with this thread?

Nobody here is saying you should switch. In fact I even stated I would never go with Microsoft/ Windows as I'm a big MBP & macOS fan.

The only purpose for this was for comparison reasons/ specs and competition is always good as it will get Apple to be better too and improve.

 

[Ma2k5]

Very interesting device. It can't directly be compared in some ways due to only the non-touch rMBP being a 15w cpu (trMB 13 is 28w and the trMBP 15 is 45w), so it is likely for low-load task it could feel snappier, but in prolonged loads, the MacBooks will generally serve better. Still interesting that Microsoft didn't wait for the 45w CPU's before selling the 15" variant.

The great thing about this is, it has many use-cases. It's a laptop, has various modes (tablet etc), has a very good touch screen including pen (which has been improved from previous gen) - so as a learning tool as well as media consumption ,it's really nice. With the new dGPU, it will handle many popular games handily too (although at some point, perhaps the 15w CPU will become a bottle neck).

I am not a fan of the 2016/17 MacBooks so I'd always pick Surface Book 2 over this generation, but really hoping Apple can try to change that next year, take it back to the 2015 and earlier glory days.

 

[ugru]

make your laptop thicker by 1/3 (its 0.75cm difference, which is half of MBP's overall thickness).

 

[jerryk]

And more about backup. The article I cited (the first one in Google search): "You may remember Backup and Restore from earlier versions of Windows. In Windows 10, the feature is actually called “Backup and Restore (Windows 7)“ so you’ll know it’s the older tool." File history is fundamentally flawed, so power users will know they need to use an outdated tool to get full backups. Whereas in OS X, there is time machine: plug in and be done.

I hate TimeMachine. Darn near useless for me. So slow that I cannot reasonable backup my machine. If I change a series of images or product some new videos I may need to backup 20-30 GB. With time machine you are looking at 4+ hours to do this. And if you need to pickup and go before this finishes you start over when you get back. Better to copy everything manually to the NAS. That copy finishes in a few minutes. Why does Time Machine take hours!!
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Again guys, I'm not getting you. Why is having a weaker CPU than the base 15" MBP a plus? I am seriously starting to doubt human rationality here. Weren't people complaining that MBP CPUs were "slow and outdated" not just a while ago? And now that MS releases a 15" laptop with 30-40% slower CPU, its suddenly a "plus"? Whats wrong with everybody?

CPU performance is not the be all end all any more. More and more applications that many professionals used take advantage of GPUs. Applications like Photoshop, etc do a lot of their processing on the GPU. So the new SB-2 have a NVidia 1060 is a big win.

I do machine learning and AI and a lot of the code I work with runs much faster on an Nvidia GPU vs intel CPU, sometime 5+ times faster.

 

[Falhófnir]

I do really appreciate the idea of a 15" 3:2 screen, is it exactly 15" or is it 15.x does anyone know?

 

[kokomoko]

jerryk, TimeMachine saved me at least 3 times (out of the box). Never lost a thing with my 5 years MacOS experience. In my 15 years Windows experience I can tell I was never able to recover. Not even once.

 

[jerryk]

jerryk, TimeMachine saved me at least 3 times (out of the box). Never lost a thing with my 5 years MacOS experience. In my 15 years Windows experience I can tell I was never able to recover. Not even once.

Glad it worked for you. But if you are losing files on either OS you need to look at your system management procedures.

 

[ahostmadsen]

jerryk, TimeMachine saved me at least 3 times (out of the box). Never lost a thing with my 5 years MacOS experience. In my 15 years Windows experience I can tell I was never able to recover. Not even once.

Exactly. Time Machine also saved me many times. My wife used File History on Windows, and lost a lot of data when her surface pro broke.
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Glad it worked for you. But if you are losing files on either OS you need to look at your system management procedures.

This goes back to the basic design philosophy. Windows is great for enterprise, where they have the right “system management procedures.” But for consumers who are not power users, the “it just works” design philosophy has advantages.

 

[jerryk]

This goes back to the basic design philosophy. Windows is great for enterprise, where they have the right “system management procedures.” But for consumers who are not power users, the “it just works” design philosophy has advantages.

Good point, but as a pointed out before it does not work that well for me. I wish it did, but I cannot be tied down while I wait for tm's transfers to complete. Also, it seems to have issues leaving corrupt Sparsebundle files. Not a big deal to use sudo and delete them, but they really should not be left around eating up large sections of the space on the backup drive

 

[monty77]

I am really excited by the SB2 release, especially the 15-inch model. Competition is a good thing to drive new developments

If history has taught us anything Apple largely ignores the competition, they move at their own sweet pace

 

[Appleaker]

The sacrifice of CPU power for a better GPU is worth it in my opinion. I don’t want Apple to do the same as it would mean no 6 core MacBook Pros, but similarly they need to up their game.
The 2nd gen Surface Books are extremely tempting, unlike the previous model. It is almost faultless in terms of hardware, the glaring issues for me are the lack of Thunderbolt and only 1 USB-C port, the horrible hinder design (which would be fixed with a thicker lower section), and the headphone jack placement.

In terms of hardware, the 13” in particular is exactly what I would want from a 13” MacBook Pro.

These offerings truly stand out in the market, let’s just see how Apple responds to true MBP competition.

 

[kazmac]

I think it's good for competition and hopefully to get Apple to move beyond their "thin" thinking; I'll use Windows for work, but remain a Mac user at home.

 

[Branflaakes]

While it's not too much of a difference, the CPUs in the 15" models are configured to 20W TDP, not 15W. Theoretically with good cooling (quite well, since CPU is separate from main body heat)and it being quad-core, it can most likely surpass the 13" MBP's in performance, sustained.

 

[EmlynDewar]

I've never understood the desire for extreme thinness (is that even a word?) in the "Pro" sector.
I'd far rather have a host of ports than a thin razor sharp edge.