Surface Book 2 vs MBP

[0989383]

Deflect and bring up apple's profit margin. That's the argument from those that buy for brand name.

This forum literally exists to talk about Apple and products under its brands....... If you lot have an issue with that rather than getting upset at how we find our Macs superior to Windows, stable and a much better experience.. can’t you take your negativity elsewhere?

 

[cbautis2]

Don't forget hard facts below:

 

[Nuno Lopes]

This is also in my mind, I've used the Mac for over two decades and as the technology has developed Apple has become more and more staid, now in 2017 I feel that we are rather presented with a mediocre product for the price point. In short the intrinsic value the Mac & OS X represented has dwindled over time for many of us, leaving the door open to other options...

Q-6
[doublepost=1508473251][/doublepost]

Are you even using a modern Mac? Apple's desktop OS stability has dramatically decreased over recent years. At home with just basic use they are fine, however put them to task on engineering projects I'm lucky if the system remains stable for more than a few days, nor am I alone with such observations.

I own and use multiple Retina Mac's all exhibit the same instability with Apple's own applications and OS. I also own multiple Windows notebooks including a Surface Book which has yet to crash or present issue in close to a year of heavy use. All are used in professional roles...

Q-6
[doublepost=1508474268][/doublepost]

I've lost more work in the last two years or so on Mac's thx to Apple's own App's or OS locking up, inversely Windows 10 has yet to raise any issue. I agree if your using you computer professionally the onus is on you to set it up for your needs be it W10 or OS X.

Is irrelevant if the OS or core apps crash and there is only so many questions one can poise to Apple or clean installs to realise that there is some fundamental underlying issue. Personally I would prefer to be using the OS X environment, equally I want it to be reliable and all the pointless bells & whistles removed and included as additional downloadable modules for those that value such trivia.

When it comes down to systems that are directly linked to revenue, brand loyalty is reserved for those that deliver...

Q-6
[doublepost=1508474705][/doublepost]

Exactly we, especially the professional users should be pushing Apple to deliver, not lap up everything and anything Apple produces. This is one of the reasons why we are now stuck with such a mediocre computing line up. Apple is now simply a phone company and it shows...

Q-6

Have you ever thought your device unfortunately has RAM problems? I say this because I had a unit in 2009 that would freeze from time to time. Replaced the RAM and no more crashes.

My 2015 model is pretty stable no crashes. I am a developer and an amateur photographer and have experienced no crashes. I do agree that the quality as reduced a tad considering that I had reset the PRAM several times due to one thing or another, but not due to crashes. Certain things do not work consistently. iCloud storage, Siri, Spotlight, I’ve experienced several out of band behaviors that it’s irritating and cuts the flow.

I also agree that we need to callout Apple in this and other things. The company is getting sloppy at points, not only that, it seams to be s tendency.

I don’t understand the growing obsession of the company with emojis with so many things they should be fixing, improving and bringing developers on board. Apple Pay + Emojiis + Selfies that seamed to be at the center stage. I wonder how this fits in with SJ speech when presenting the first i
Phone. It seams something that came up out of some money gathering study. It’s vexxing and uninspiring from an humanity point of view ...

I definitely prefer to use my MacBook Pro to work than my Surface Pro, its just all around more effective and efficient. But that it’s no excuse for the above.

 

[Queen6]

Have you ever thought your device unfortunately has RAM problems? I say this because I had a unit in 2009 that would freeze from time to time. Replaced the RAM and no more crashes.

My 2015 model is pretty stable no crashes. I am a developer and an amateur photographer and have experienced no crashes. I do agree that the quality as reduced a tad considering that I had reset the PRAM several times due to one thing or another, but not due to crashes. Certain things do not work consistently. iCloud storage, Siri, Spotlight, I’ve experienced several out of band behaviors that it’s irritating and cuts the flow.

I also agree that we need to callout Apple in this and other things. The company is getting sloppy at points, not only that, it seams to be s tendency.

I don’t understand the growing obsession of the company with emojis with so many things they should be fixing, improving and bringing developers on board. Apple Pay + Emojiis + Selfies that seamed to be at the center stage. I wonder how this fits in with SJ speech when presenting the first i
Phone. It seams something that came up out of some money gathering study. It’s vexxing and uninspiring from an humanity point of view ...

I definitely prefer to use my MacBook Pro to work than my Surface Pro, its just all around more effective and efficient. But that it’s no excuse for the above.

No it's unlikely to be RAM as the issue is repeatable across multiple Mac's, more likely related directly to the workflow, usage & load. Apple IMHO has simply moved on and is now predominantly a mobile device & service company with fewer resources dedicated to the desktop OS and the associated hardware.

I do believe that Apple is looking at the Mac more currently as they have incurred a lot of negative press between disregarding product lines and questionable updates. Nor do I see much effort on productivity, as stated far more focus is placed on more trivial items, equally potentially the audience Apple now wants the Mac to appeal to.

I feel Apple could do so much more with the Mac, however they have opted to leave it on autopilot. I agree as time passes it becomes far harder to produce those WOW or iconic devices, equally others are at least trying. Microsoft's Surface Book is a superb 2 in 1, equally Microsoft completely botched the launch and unstable software. My own 1st Gen has been great with absolutely no issue which very much encourages me to move to the 15" admittedly I'll wait on the initial bugs to be worked out.

Surface Book is not without concerns either as it's even less accessible or repairable than the current MBP, however it does bring another dynamic to the table being a 2 in 1 with a decent dGPU and battery life, being a more capable milti role device. The MBP now seems to be more designed for a specific audience, more to impress than deliver. I find the newest iteration to be a downgrade in usability, requiring external devices to regain basic connectivity. Keyboard is simply tragic, existing for all the wrong reasons. As other members have stated weight is more the issue than the thickness of the chassis, an obsession Apple should get over.

I fully don't expect Apple to produce a notebook for every niche group, yet previously there was a balance with the Air fulfilling the ultraportable space, MacBook the mainstream and the MBP for the Pro/Prosumer, now we just have everything stripped down for the sake of being thinner. A lot pf professional's don't want thinner less usable systems they want more powerful, more capable, more versatile hardware. Nor does this mean that we don't embrace new technologies or paradigms, inversely not being compelled to use hardware that is not yet mainstream or stable.

Ultimately all just opinion, as Apple will do as it see fit and follow the $$$$. That said I do believe it's current path is resulting in the loss of professionals on the platform, certainly from my own interactions...

Q-6

 

[0989383]

Don't forget hard facts below:

Funny how all the Windows apologists are completely ignoring that lol

 

[Nixir]

Nor do I see much effort on productivity, as stated far more focus is placed on more trivial items, equally potentially the audience Apple now wants the Mac to appeal to.

I feel Apple could do so much more with the Mac, however they have opted to leave it on autopilot. I agree as time passes it becomes far harder to produce those WOW or iconic devices, equally others are at least trying. Microsoft's Surface Book is a superb 2 in 1, equally Microsoft completely botched the launch and unstable software. My own 1st Gen has been great with absolutely no issue which very much encourages me to move to the 15" admittedly I'll wait on the initial bugs to be worked out.

Surface Book is not without concerns either as it's even less accessible or repairable than the current MBP, however it does bring another dynamic to the table being a 2 in 1 with a decent dGPU and battery life, being a more capable milti role device. The MBP now seems to be more designed for a specific audience, more to impress than deliver. I find the newest iteration to be a downgrade in usability, requiring external devices to regain basic connectivity. Keyboard is simply tragic, existing for all the wrong reasons. As other members have stated weight is more the issue than the thickness of the chassis, an obsession Apple should get over.

Ultimately all just opinion, as Apple will do as it see fit and follow the $$$$. That said I do believe it's current path is resulting in the loss of professionals on the platform, certainly from my own interactions...

Q-6

I remember fondly the days when Apple treated their pro-products as, in the words of late Steve Jobs: "trucks that are meant to do the heavy lifting". Every time I look at my power G5, I just had to be inspired by its beautiful design, wonderful engineering, that I truly think it is a perfect marriage between art and technology, and it had made me more productive simply because I looked forward to using it for work. On top of all that, it was absolutely the most powerful workstation in its price range in its day.

I look at the trashcan mac now and all I see is gimmicks. I look at the latest macbook pros and all I see are fashion items. Designed for your average consumers, well, Steve had some products for the average consumers too, namely the iPads and macbook/airs. All Tim had done is taken the pro products away and upped the price of consumer items by calling them pros.

 

[nikster0029]

I remember fondly the days when Apple treated their pro-products as, in the words of late Steve Jobs: "trucks that are meant to do the heavy lifting". Every time I look at my power G5, I just had to be inspired by its beautiful design, wonderful engineering, that I truly think it is a perfect marriage between art and technology, and it had made me more productive simply because I looked forward to using it for work. On top of all that, it was absolutely the most powerful workstation in its price range in its day.

I look at the trashcan mac now and all I see is gimmicks. I look at the latest macbook pros and all I see are fashion items. Designed for your average consumers, well, Steve had some products for the average consumers too, namely the iPads and macbook/airs. All Tim had done is taken the pro products away and upped the price of consumer items by calling them pros.

Exactly this.

To add, I own a 2016 tbMBP 15" and I will be purchasing a Surface book 2. I will update my results to this thread and explain the differences!

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Personally, at the moment, I don't trust MS with my money when it comes to buying devices. I had my fare share of money down the toilet with the Panos Paney sales pitch. I like the idea of a system that can work as a Tablet and as a PC, but having bought and used Surfaces (2 exactly) for 3 years, haven't found the money was worth it. Even thought in the outset of things it looked like it was.

I'm open minded and and ready to concede that with SB 2 MS has ironed it all out and nailed it, but I need proof of it beyond the specs.

On this comparison I think we are missing the point if we do not take into account the iPad and Apple integration. After all Apple is pursuing a different vision of the future, were Tablets and PCs work in tandem with each other, rather than sharing the same surface.

I really like my MacBook Pro 2015, bought it in 2016. I did not buy the 2016 since I was not convinced with the all in USB-C. I have no problems with Apple abandoning interfaces, for instance I was one of the first jump into the CD-ROMless laptop and desktops from Apple. But this time around I was not convinced that offering 4 USB-C thurderbolt was batter than a mix of regular USB and these one, along with abandoning the memory cards, an important component for photography.

Another note, if we take the iPad Pro out of the question, and considering the market, I don't understand why Apple had to put the new Macbook Pro's with touch bar starting at 2100 Euros with a 13", 8GB RAM, dual core model. Maybe fellow Apple users can explain this one for me from an economics perspective. I'm disregarding the other models since I think when we buy Apple we buy robustness and innovation, the second it is not given by the other models in a convincing way to me.

The only reason I can find for this massive price bump is that Apple heads believe that the iPad Pro come to replace the all the models up to the 2000 Euros were general productivity is concerned. Starting at 750 up to 1500 maxed out, in the line up, it looks like that this is were their minds are set. There is just one big caveat with this, the human interaction language of iPad Pro its not ready to get such pressure from humanity in the context of general productivity. It was not with the iOS 10, neither it is with the iOS 11 even though I welcome all the changes. I believe, that iPad Pro supporting at least a track pad its inevitable since touch is not has efficient when the screen is parallel to ones body on a desk.

To tell you the truth this puts me off. It looks rushed, sloppy and greedy all together as an Apple user.

On top of this, in the last WWDC I noticed something that I disliked and again does not elevate humanity in anyway. I noticed a huge focus on Emojis, Selfies and Apple Pay when it comes to explain the value of the next gen Smartphones. Something that would be a side note were the development of humanity is concerned, its turned by Apple as center stage theme. This I think its a decision mostly done out of laziness, even though it might be well grounded in metrics. But metrics its the present not the future, it does not convey the code of a good future in the present. Its just vanity and consumption. All in all, uninspiring.

The exception of this was the Apple Watch. I could see the real Apple on this device. Everything was there, innovation, humanity, Apple integration and crafmanship at its best. Funny enough this "artist" opened the show, did not closed it. So I'm free to speculate that the values when it comes to tech of the company are changing away from SJ. SJ may have been nasty or a nice man, it does not matter, but one thing that I liked about him is that he looked well grounded in his pursue. Money, Porches and Ferraris, intertwined with moments of thought for victims of whatever were not at the center of his vision when running a company, but a consequence of well crafted innovative tools that opened people minds to new use cases, new possibilities. For me that is not encoded in either Emojis, AI Applied to Selfies or Apple Pay.

Apart from liking the visuals of Apples and quality of their devices, today what I like the most is its integration of use cases across the devices along with Siri. Actually, this is the key factor for me to continue to invest in their system. Unfortunately in WWDC I've seen nothing of interest of the second and the first with the exception of the Apple Watch. If the focus moves too much from this, my relationship with the ecosystem is weakened, considering that devices individually are becoming less unique for one reason or the other. When I think of integration, started from hardware, to software up to pricing and marketing. That its not what I saw in WWDC; what I saw was more and more of a tapestry stitched together in an non convincing way, covered up with out of band themes, such as SJ homage, the opening of the spaceship, the plazas (whatever they call it), so on and so forth.

Hey, but they will sell loads of iPhones. True, but its that the near future? It looks to me like it is the present empowered by a huge amount of kinetic energy generated 4 or 5 years ago. A kinetic energy commanded by SJ.

Cheers,

Nuno

 

[0989383]

Personally, at the moment, I don't trust MS with my money when it comes to buying devices. I had my fare share of money down the toilet with the Panos Paney sales pitch. I like the idea of a system that can work as a Tablet and as a PC, but having bought and used Surfaces (2 exactly) for 3 years, haven't found the money was worth it. Even thought in the outset of things it looked like it was.

I'm open minded and and ready to concede that with SB 2 MS has ironed it all out and nailed it, but I need proof of it beyond the specs.

On this comparison I think we are missing the point if we do not take into account the iPad and Apple integration. After all Apple is pursuing a different vision of the future, were Tablets and PCs work in tandem with each other, rather than sharing the same surface.

I really like my MacBook Pro 2015, bought it in 2016. I did not buy the 2016 since I was not convinced with the all in USB-C. I have no problems with Apple abandoning interfaces, for instance I was one of the first jump into the CD-ROMless laptop and desktops from Apple. But this time around I was not convinced that offering 4 USB-C thurderbolt was batter than a mix of regular USB and these one, along with abandoning the memory cards, an important component for photography.

Another note, if we take the iPad Pro out of the question, and considering the market, I don't understand why Apple had to put the new Macbook Pro's with touch bar starting at 2100 Euros with a 13", 8GB RAM, dual core model. Maybe fellow Apple users can explain this one for me from an economics perspective. I'm disregarding the other models since I think when we buy Apple we buy robustness and innovation, the second it is not given buy the other models in a conniving way to me.

The only reason I can find for this massive price bump is that Apple heads believe that the iPad Pro come to replace the all the models up to the 2000 Euros were general productivity is concerned. Starting at 750 up to 1500 maxed out, in the line up, it looks like that this is were their minds are set. There is just one big caveat with this, the human interaction language of iPad Pro its not ready to get such pressure from humanity in the context of general productivity. It was not with the iOS 10, neither it is with the iOS 11 even though I welcome all the changes. I believe, that iPad Pro supporting at least a track pad its inevitable since touch is not has efficient when the screen is parallel to ones body on a desk.

To tell you the truth this puts me off. It looks rushed, sloppy and greedy all together as an Apple user.

On top of this, in the last WWDC I noticed something that I disliked and again does not elevate humanity in anyway. I noticed a huge focus on Emojis, Selfies and Apple Pay when it comes to explain the value of the next gen Smartphones. Something that would be a side note were the development of humanity its concerned its turned center stage. This I think its a decision mostly done out of laziness, even though it might be well grounded in metrics. But metrics its the present not the future, it does not convey the code of a good future in the present. Its just vanity and consumption. All in all, uninspiring.

The exception of this was the Apple Watch. I could see the real Apple on this device. Everything was there, innovation, humanity, Apple integration and crafmanship at its best. Funny enough this "artist" opened the show, did not closed it. So I'm free to speculate that the values when it comes to tech of the company are changing away from SJ. SJ may have been nasty or a nice man, it does not matter, but one thing that I liked about him is that he looked well grounded in his pursue. Money was not at the center of his vision when running a company, but a consequence of well crafted innovative tools that opened people minds to new use cases, new possibilities. For me that is not encoded in either Emojis or Apple Pay.

Apart from liking the visuals of Apples and quality of their devices, today what I like the most is its integration of use cases across the devices along with Siri. Actually, this is the key factor for me to continue to invest in their system. Unfortunately in WWDC I've seen nothing of interest of the second and the first with the exception of the Apple Watch. If the focus moves too much from this, my relationship with the ecosystem is weakened, considering that devices individually are becoming less unique for one reason or the other. When I think of integration, started from hardware, to software up to pricing and marketing. That its not what I saw in WWDC; what I saw was more and more of a tapestry stitched together in an non convincing way, covered up with out of band themes, such as SJ homage, the opening of the space, the plazas (whatever they call it), so on and so forth.

Hey, but they will sell loads of iPhones. True, but its that the near future? It looks to me like it is the present empowered by a huge amount of kinetic energy generated 4 or 5 years ago.

Cheers,

Nuno

That’s a good post. I get all your points. I was the same when my old MacBook Pro broke after 3 years of intensive use.. I thought Apples new offerings are overpriced and for the first time, resorted to calling them ‘under specced for the money’.

But after using everything from iPads to Windows laptops of all prices I remembered that still nothing else compared to macOS or Apples integration and build quality. Therefore I ended up coughing up the money. And to be honest I’m glad I did. Because it’s simply the price we have to pay for that seamless computing experience.

 

[monty77]

I really hope MS have nailed the laptop that becomes a tablet when you need it as it suits my use case perfectly.

- Phone gets 80%+ of my use time, and the screen is now large enough that I'm not craving a tablet for content consumption
- A really powerful _real_ laptop that's flexible enough to allow me to use it for proper tabletty things (photo editing being main one) is the perfect counterpart

The surface Pro always felt like neither so I was not a fan, but this feels like it could actually be both - for my use case at least.

Software does need to catch up though, last time I used it Windows still feels very clunky in true tablet mode.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Don't forget hard facts below:

Here's a clue why it's not hard facts

Whilst CR may have some measure of evidence it's far from transparent and despite JD Power ratings which equally have biases they are more transparent. The devil is in the detail which CR conveniently does not publish

Even CR own comments are contradictory to the old data set used in the chart eg:

"Several Microsoft products have performed well in CR labs, including the new Microsoft Surface Pro, which earned Very Good or Excellent scores in multiple CR tests. Based purely on lab performance, the Surface Pro is highly rated when used either as a tablet or with a keyboard attached"

No one is denying Apple record over the past few years for 1st year ownership or that MS earlier lines had problems but CR projections are not facts or applicable to newer devices

 

[c0ppo]

I hate what Apple is doing to the whole mac lineup at the moment. And I do mean 'hate'. iMac 27 with i7 and 580 sounds like a jet engine, touch bar is a complete gimmick (my own subjective opinion), only product I find great at the current lineup is macbook 12. Excellent little device.

But, the alternative also isn't that great. I own and use Lenovo p50. Great workhorse, and all around great laptop. But Windows 10 is a complete mess with it's idiotic updates, and with registry. Windows registry is probably the worst idea Microsoft ever had.

But I still use Lenovo. For the last 2-3 weeks I have been trying to use MBP 15 2017 version. Works great when docked in my office. Really great. But when I'm on the go, well... TB gets in the way. Accidental touches, and overall, completely useless and ugly screen that is over my keyboard.

If Linux had the tools I need for my job, I wouldn't even look at Apple products anymore. I already ditched iPhone, but ditching mac entirely is not a possibility for me at the moment

 

[SteveJUAE]

I hate what Apple is doing to the whole mac lineup at the moment. And I do mean 'hate'. iMac 27 with i7 and 580 sounds like a jet engine, touch bar is a complete gimmick (my own subjective opinion), only product I find great at the current lineup is macbook 12. Excellent little device.

But, the alternative also isn't that great. I own and use Lenovo p50. Great workhorse, and all around great laptop. But Windows 10 is a complete mess with it's idiotic updates, and with registry. Windows registry is probably the worst idea Microsoft ever had.

But I still use Lenovo. For the last 2-3 weeks I have been trying to use MBP 15 2017 version. Works great when docked in my office. Really great. But when I'm on the go, well... TB gets in the way. Accidental touches, and overall, completely useless and ugly screen that is over my keyboard.

If Linux had the tools I need for my job, I wouldn't even look at Apple products anymore. I already ditched iPhone, but ditching mac entirely is not a possibility for me at the moment

Hate is quite a strong word , sure there seems a shift from where the uniqueness of the MBP that had an apparent greater appeal for the professionals and still does in a few areas

Any premium product with such a price tag must have a certain level of spec's, refinement and quality and will always fit or suit some professions but there seems a rounding off for greater appeal given that the user base is 85% non professional

It seems this rounding off is felt by some and coincides with changes in the premium segment that Apple now competes with more players like MS.

It is now far easier to judge, evaluate and question Apple given it's own shifts towards more mobile OS solutions yet they still manage to tempt some with a few titbits

Mac's will always sell based on reputation and quality in markets/countries that can afford them but this success is not necessarily a measure of professional use which many seem to think is diminishing

Products like Surface certainly send ripples through the MBP appeal

 

[Queen6]

Hate is quite a strong word , sure there seems a shift from where the uniqueness of the MBP that had an apparent greater appeal for the professionals and still does in a few areas

Any premium product with such a price tag must have a certain level of spec's, refinement and quality and will always fit or suit some professions but there seems a rounding off for greater appeal given that the user base is 85% non professional

It seems this rounding off is felt by some and coincides with changes in the premium segment that Apple now competes with more players like MS.

It is now far easier to judge, evaluate and question Apple given it's own shifts towards more mobile OS solutions yet they still manage to tempt some with a few titbits

Mac's will always sell based on reputation and quality in markets/countries that can afford them but this success is not necessarily a measure of professional use which many seem to think is diminishing

Products like Surface certainly send ripples through the MBP appeal

Everyone I know who has purchased or tried the new design MBP for professional use has either returned or passed, nor have I yet to see one being utilised in a professional role. People are either holding onto older hardware or switching to Windows. Many now consider the MBP to be a joke, even long term professional users, Apple went for the soft option, so the backlash from it's professional audience is hardly surprising.

Apple may very well be selling the MBP in numbers, equally it's failing miserably to impress it's dwindling professional users, and arguably it's most important customers. Apple desperately wants the credibility, kudos and "Halo effect" it's professional users bring, yet it's current direction is literally driving them away.

Was a time I would have unreservedly recommended the Mac, these days I pretty much discount it, being mostly a lifestyle product designed to impress rather than perform...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Everyone I know who has purchased or tried the new design MBP for professional use has either returned or passed, nor have I yet to see one being utilised in a professional role. People are either holding onto older hardware or switching to Windows. Many now consider the MBP to be a joke, even long term professional users, Apple went for the soft option, so the backlash from it's professional audience is hardly surprising.

Apple may very well be selling the MBP in numbers, equally it's failing miserably to impress it's dwindling professional users, and arguably it's most important customers. Apple desperately wants the credibility, kudos and "Halo effect" it's professional users bring, yet it's current direction is literally driving them away.

Was a time I would have unreservedly recommended the Mac, these days I pretty much discount it, being mostly a lifestyle product designed to impress rather than perform...

Q-6

Yes it is disappointing for many outside a few niche professions and of course the visual arts industry that still has a greater following although often I feel this is more based on software preference than true hardware

Innovating others ideas was easy to perfect and mastered by Apple but now this stream has plateaued or not so easily integrated due to other restrictive policies invention remains a fickle beast that cannot be mastered even by Apples money

So it's not surprising that other revenue streams are the main focus along with Eco entrapment

MBP's etc remain a nice general laptop for the masses that can afford to use them but forget about edginess outside a few meaningless bragging rights that there core user base is never likely to use in the first instance (re 4x4K, 4x TB3 or even sustained CPU load)

The best their money could come up with was a farcical TB a bigger TP and shallow KB

Make a MBP that either a more affordable balanced general laptop or for Pro's not some smoke and mirrors halfway house that master little outside a few pieces of cheap software that also seem to be lagging