Surface Devices

[Queen6]

This is Apple... In my view, there is nothing wrong with Apple going in this direction with their software. They have needed to do something with MacOS for quite awhile. It will be nice to have another system in the mix if they do it well, and using their own hardware may improve things... In theory this should work, I can't help but notice that this theory has been fact with IOS which is their own hardware and software, and they have stumbled on more then a few occasions. Anyone remember the "bricked" iPads? However I don't buy into the idea that their chips are better than Intel or AMD, nor do I go with the excuse that some made that Intel somehow let Apple down and that is why they don't upgrade on time. I remember how long it took them to upgrade the MacBook Pro and it had nothing to do with Intel.

If they finally pull off competent software and hardware, and improve their recent track record, good for them and all of the Apple fans that depend on them.

Keeping an open mind on Apple's transition to Arm for the Mac. I do tend to think it will serve to reinforce Apple's software position like it, or loath it and hopefully elevate the quality of Apple's hardware. I can certainly see where ARM SOC's can fit into mainstream computing as do multiple OEM's as there's clearly a future for ARM in what we describe as the desktop environment.

Apple has long since backed out of focusing on the Classic Pro market, or maybe better termed as historic. That said I think for those that are embedded in Apple's ecosystem the upcoming ARM MAC's will further bolster their user experience across their Apple devices. For the more technical and demanding roles not so much (unless Apple app centric) as Apple is firmly chasing the consumer with money and or credit to spend.

TBH what I'd like to see would be a more robust IPP with Apple keyboard running macOS, to me that would be a great 2in1 for basic productivity. I wouldn't be against trying out an ARM based MAC, I even came close to picking up a W10 ARM 2in1 earlier this year. The big "But" is giving up Pen & Touch and living with a basic clamshell notebook for on the go when I already have this in 12" (2in1 detach-KB) and even 8.4" formats (UMPC 360-KB). Seems rather a retrograde step with little to gain right now.

As ever time will tell

Q-6

 

[Queen6]

LOL, couldn't make it up, look what just arrived. 🤣

View attachment 927098

A gift from the office.

Strange times indeed 😆

Q-6

 

[LeeW]

Strange times indeed 😆

Q-6

I mean it's 2019, 128GB SSD, but it's a gift so I cannot sell it, well I can but that would be wrong of me. I can't tell them it really doesn't fit in with my current equipment/workflow now. My wife may well take it.

 

[Expos of 1969]

I mean it's 2019, 128GB SSD, but it's a gift so I cannot sell it, well I can but that would be wrong of me. I can't tell them it really doesn't fit in with my current equipment/workflow now. My wife may well take it.

As long as it is not like the horses head in the bed (Godfather reference).

 

[SteveJUAE]

I mean it's 2019, 128GB SSD, but it's a gift so I cannot sell it, well I can but that would be wrong of me. I can't tell them it really doesn't fit in with my current equipment/workflow now. My wife may well take it.

Bootcamp it

 

[Mendota]

Bootcamp it

While you still can!

 

[LeeW]

Bootcamp it

Even if I wanted to, what I would use it for would swallow the 128GB storage so not even worth doing that. I mean I don't want to sound ungrateful, it was a gift, the company looks after us really well and these additional little perks are great.

I will find something to use it for. Never really thought of ensuring everyone knew I was off Apple otherwise I would probably have got something else Windows-based.

 

[smoledman]

It's really too bad Microsoft never put Thunderbolt 3 on Surface Studio. I would have gotten the latest one if it had that.

 

[kazmac]

LOL, couldn't make it up, look what just arrived. 🤣

View attachment 927098

A gift from the office.

Well, if you don't want it... 😉😂 Fashionably late to this post.

Nice of your job and nice of you to give it to the Missues. Hopefully the keyboard will hold up.

My own comedy of errors here... I tried to order the HP Omen Ryzen laptop this afternoon, and couldn't log into Best Buy no matter what browser I tried.

I almost went with the SB3, but Microsoft's site is full of negative reviews.

 

[Queen6]

I mean it's 2019, 128GB SSD, but it's a gift so I cannot sell it, well I can but that would be wrong of me. I can't tell them it really doesn't fit in with my current equipment/workflow now. My wife may well take it.

128 Apple's generosity knows no bounds 😆 A nice gesture from your company all the same, sure you'll find a use for it, one way or the other

Q-6

 

[c0ppo]

That said I think for those that are embedded in Apple's ecosystem the upcoming ARM MAC's will further bolster their user experience across their Apple devices.

I honestly believe that Apple will do a great job with transitioning to ARM.
One thing Apple does by far better than anyone else is optimisation! They really do deserve respect there. MS is looking to be backward compatible, and while that works in some areas, in others MS is far behind anyone else. Sooner or later they're gonna have to make some hard choices.

But Apple will do great with ARM. But not in the first run, even if CPU+GPU are great. It will take a few years for 3rd party developers to catch up. Adobe is slow, old and clunky. I highly doubt their entire suite will work from day one. It will take them a lot of time to transition their entire suite.

I will check on Apple in 2-3 years again. But I'm not gonna be their beta tester. And you can be sure that first macs with ARM are gonna have issues. From hardware issues, to lack of 3rd party software that everyone is used to.

And MS will have a lot of problems if Apple pulls this one off. If they have decent performance with great battery life, people will buy macs more then ever. And it doesn't matter that it will mostly be regular users, and not pro users. Regular users are the ones who own the market. Windows became popular because of gaming and regular users. Now almost everyone uses Windows. They hold almost 90% of the desktop market.

Linux is where most of tech savvy geeks are. That's the platform that made most of break troughs. But where is Linux in desktop market? Almost nowhere, just like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc.

I will find something to use it for. Never really thought of ensuring everyone knew I was off Apple otherwise I would probably have got something else Windows-based.

I find macs to be great for media consumption. IINA player is by far the best video player I have ever used. Easy to use, fast and responsive. Is that worth the MBP asking price?

 

[LeeW]

And it doesn't matter that it will mostly be regular users, and not pro users. Regular users are the ones who own the market.

Exactly what I have been saying, the 'pro' users are not as important as they make out in the grand scheme of Apple. Those regular users are the ones buying and accepting the lock-in many of us dislike, why? They don't care, they get a suite of devices that work for them and that is all that matters to them, and nobody can argue against that.

 

[Mendota]

Microsoft is not concerned with Apple and Arm. They have created the most successful operating system in the desktop computing arena. It is about the developers and they will always favor Windows as the stable reliable system. Apple has always done their own thing and they will continue to do so. What they need to do here is make sure that their emulation software is up to the task of running applications made for Windows, because in my opinion developers with few exceptions are not going to keep chasing after Apple's every shift. Microsoft will develop for them because, why not?

I just purchased the new Painter 2021 and they have added some nice features for Sidecar, and have also made Coral Draw available for the Mac, now after all this effort, they are expected to spend more resources? Not every company is a multi billion company like Microsoft. Corel has seen some hard times being in a select market.

 

[LeeW]

I agree that MS has nothing to fear, they have the corporate market tied up tight which is where they make the bulk of their recurring revenue on Windows + other software, developers, and so on. That is not going to change any at all because of Apple + ARM.

What Microsoft does have to fear is that the home user has less and less of a need for a desktop or even a laptop these days. I see it all the time, I mean all of my kids for example, none want a desktop, they only want a laptop for university because they need to have one. Other than that their needs for a digital life are an iPhone and/or iPad.

And out of the big players, Microsoft, Google, and Apple, the only one in the best place to capitalize on that is Apple who are going to make it easy for everyone by providing an almost seamless range of devices that will require little to no learning curve when it comes to switching between all devices. That is what your average home users is going to want if Apple can provide that at a reasonable price point, it could be game over and Apple will dominate the home market more than ever.

Lots of issues in that statement I know but the general point holds. They changed the market with the iPhone and the iPad, they could do it again with the laptop/desktop, but, lots of buts..

 

[SteveJUAE]

It's really too bad Microsoft never put Thunderbolt 3 on Surface Studio. I would have gotten the latest one if it had that.

Whilst true it would of been a nice to have for a few

IRL the vast majority of users are not spending an extra 2,4 or $600 for a TB3 peripheral let alone piggy backing 2x4k monitors etc etc

I find it contradictory that many reviewer often slam a laptop for being over priced by a $100 or so then rave about TB3 or the lack of. The reality is many struggle to buy a $1100 laptop let alone add another 50 to 200% more on for TB3 addons

I'm all for bragging rights if you can afford it and my Razer 15 Studio edition is 10000% overkill for my dailies, but having a TB3 port adds 0 value IRL other than spec's on paper for most

 

[canesalato]

Whilst true it would of been a nice to have for a few

IRL the vast majority of users are not spending an extra 2,4 or $600 for a TB3 peripheral let alone piggy backing 2x4k monitors etc etc

I find it contradictory that many reviewer often slam a laptop for being over priced by a $100 or so then rave about TB3 or the lack of. The reality is many struggle to buy a $1100 laptop let alone add another 50 to 200% more on for TB3 addons

I'm all for bragging rights if you can afford it and my Razer 15 Studio edition is 10000% overkill for my dailies, but having a TB3 port adds 0 value IRL other than spec's on paper for most

Very true. It's nice to have those ports, but I have read reviews that were unreasonably negative towards otherwise great computers, just because of the lack of TB3. Go figure... That said, on very expensive devices like the SB3...

 

[Mendota]

I agree that MS has nothing to fear, they have the corporate market tied up tight which is where they make the bulk of their recurring revenue on Windows + other software, developers, and so on. That is not going to change any at all because of Apple + ARM.

What Microsoft does have to fear is that the home user has less and less of a need for a desktop or even a laptop these days. I see it all the time, I mean all of my kids for example, none want a desktop, they only want a laptop for university because they need to have one. Other than that their needs for a digital life are an iPhone and/or iPad.

And out of the big players, Microsoft, Google, and Apple, the only one in the best place to capitalize on that is Apple who are going to make it easy for everyone by providing an almost seamless range of devices that will require little to no learning curve when it comes to switching between all devices. That is what your average home users is going to want if Apple can provide that at a reasonable price point, it could be game over and Apple will dominate the home market more than ever.

Lots of issues in that statement I know but the general point holds. They changed the market with the iPhone and the iPad, they could do it again with the laptop/desktop, but, lots of buts..

You could be right about the casual user, but Microsoft themselves discovered during these lockdowns that Windows was used more than anything else. That is why they put their own ARM on the back burner and refocused on Windows. Your kids might not care now, but moving forward in their lives, they might want more than what Apple offers with their app store apps. And what about when they get real jobs? As you stated most corporations use Windows. As for Apple as I said if they can get their emulation software up to par so that it will run Windows software well, then that would make up for boot camp. Think of the Sims, a lot of young women have discovered gaming specs to play that game, and most of them prefer Windows. It took EA a long time to actually develop for Apple, and I doubt they are going to make the effort again when Apple goes ARM.

Speaking of developers, Apple would really need to change their policy at their store, most companies are not willing to share their profits with Apple, and in addition they also need to be able to charge for updates. Apple will also need to do something about their pricing, because the average consumer is not like us, spending thousands of dollars on tech.

 

[c0ppo]

I'm all for bragging rights if you can afford it and my Razer 15 Studio edition is 10000% overkill for my dailies, but having a TB3 port adds 0 value IRL other than spec's on paper for most

That is your use case, and that is ok.
But other users like myself expect a TB3 port on a 2500$+ device. And I do use TB3 daily.

I do agree, users buying a 1100$ laptop probably won't use TB3, and don't even care if it is there.
But users that are buying a 2500$+ laptop do care. And lots of them will use it. And those customers have no issues with paying a 200-300$ for a TB3 dock. We are not talking about low or mid range laptops here.

I probably would have bought SB3 down the road if it had TB3. Without TB3 there is no chance of me purchasing SB3 at all. I already own a TB3 dock for 4 years now. And I now own a monitor that requires TB3.

 

[LeeW]

but Microsoft themselves discovered during these lockdowns that Windows was used more than anything else. That is why they put their own ARM on the back burner and refocused on Windows.

Why though? Did people rush out and buy new windows desktops/laptops or just start using the ones they already had but never used as much but now they are on lockdown... I suspect the latter more than the former. Not seen any suggestion MS has put things on the back burner to refocus on Windows, where are you getting that from? A surge due to COVID has/still is being seen at many companies for obvious reasons. It will return to pre-lockdown norms eventually as the people return to normal.

Your kids might not care now, but moving forward in their lives, they might want more than what Apple offers with their app store apps. And what about when they get real jobs?

Like most, they will deal with that when the time comes and decide what is appropriate at the time, given their choices now, that will be Apple where possible I suspect. My point is that they like others are deciding for today, not tomorrow, of course, those that know they will need a laptop/desktop due to their planned career choices will look at that those choices today.

because the average consumer is not like us, spending thousands of dollars on tech.

Depends, think about how many average consumers have an iPhone then consider how many also have a 2nd or 3rd device, it can quickly add up to thousands of dollars on tech per head. Those that do not favour Apple which is indeed the majority will spend less, because they have the option, but offer them a compelling enough option to spend more, they will.

 

[Dave245]

This interview with Craig and Greg is a good watch, it's also very interesting. There is a section that talks about the Mac. The topics are also about WWDC and what was announced, it's interesting to hear Apple's opinion on things and how they see things like the Mac and so on.

The Talk Show ✪: WWDC 2020 With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak

daringfireball.net

 

[kazmac]

Microsoft is not concerned with Apple and Arm. They have created the most successful operating system in the desktop computing arena. It is about the developers and they will always favor Windows as the stable reliable system. Apple has always done their own thing and they will continue to do so. What they need to do here is make sure that their emulation software is up to the task of running applications made for Windows, because in my opinion developers with few exceptions are not going to keep chasing after Apple's every shift. Microsoft will develop for them because, why not?

I just purchased the new Painter 2021 and they have added some nice features for Sidecar, and have also made Coral Draw available for the Mac, now after all this effort, they are expected to spend more resources? Not every company is a multi billion company like Microsoft. Corel has seen some hard times being in a select market.

Thanks for posting about the art end of things, this is quite helpful. Looking forward to using Painter Essentials on a Wacom tablet as soon as I feel comfortable with W10. I am so psyched to use the Wacom Pro pen. BTW have you posted your art on this forum? I'd like to see some please.

I'll have an HP Omen laptop on Tuesday (Ryzen). It should handle Corel, ArtRage, Affinity well (8 core Ryzen, GTX 1660 Ti). I like HP's keyboards a lot and was curious about Ryzen. Looking forward to diving in next week.

I almost went with a Surface yesterday, but the SL3s seem to have spontaneous cracking screens and SB3s are problematic too. Still rooting for MS to release a smaller Surface Studio with modern internals. That display is gorgeous.
[automerge]1593091341[/automerge]

This interview with Craig and Greg is a good watch, it's also very interesting. There is a section that talks about the Mac. The topics are also about WWDC and what was announced, it's interesting to hear Apple's opinion on things and how they see things like the Mac and so on.

The Talk Show ✪: WWDC 2020 With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak

daringfireball.net

I really like Craig, but it's Apple doublespeak at its finest there. I am more than a bit wary of what I've heard about the changes in Big Sur, and given how craptastic iPadOS is, well I cannot be too excited. Maybe they will surprise me post transition, but seeing that Apple cannot (or will not?) fix the touch irresponsiveness on iPads, makes me very skittish about trying a Mac with Apple silicon inside. I hope they get the cooling and thermals sorted for Macs.

Anyway, I hope they make something Mac users will enjoy.

 

[SteveJUAE]

That is your use case, and that is ok.
But other users like myself expect a TB3 port on a 2500$+ device. And I do use TB3 daily.

I do agree, users buying a 1100$ laptop probably won't use TB3, and don't even care if it is there.
But users that are buying a 2500$+ laptop do care. And lots of them will use it. And those customers have no issues with paying a 200-300$ for a TB3 dock. We are not talking about low or mid range laptops here.

I probably would have bought SB3 down the road if it had TB3. Without TB3 there is no chance of me purchasing SB3 at all. I already own a TB3 dock for 4 years now. And I now own a monitor that requires TB3.

Personal use aside

I think we may all be surprised how few use TB3

Using Apples own metrics and assuming its not dissimilar in W10 land the number of individuals using professional grade software on a regular basis is very much in the minority and those using TB3 even on premium products is likely an even smaller subset, I expect the same in non professional users cases

For most the value is not their on expensive TB3 addons and often they prefer to spend on secondary devices that often run cheaper mobile apps and bring more multi-function use

Sure if you need TB3 it's black and white buying option, but many diss products based on FOMO opposed to reality and TB3 is one of these must have ............ not, for many

 

[smoledman]

Personal use aside

I think we may all be surprised how few use TB3

Using Apples own metrics and assuming its not dissimilar in W10 land the number of individuals using professional grade software on a regular basis is very much in the minority and those using TB3 even on premium products is likely an even smaller subset, I expect the same in non professional users cases

For most the value is not their on expensive TB3 addons and often they prefer to spend on secondary devices that often run cheaper mobile apps and bring more multi-function use

Sure if you need TB3 it's black and white buying option, but many diss products based on FOMO opposed to reality and TB3 is one of these must have ............ not

I want TB3 for fast external drives.

 

[LeeW]

I want TB3 for fast external drives.

This, I expect external drives to become a lot more prevalent as they continue to get smaller and faster combined with peoples desire to house files on a local device to share than solely on the cloud.

 

[Mendota]

Why though? Did people rush out and buy new windows desktops/laptops or just start using the ones they already had but never used as much but now they are on lockdown... I suspect the latter more than the former. Not seen any suggestion MS has put things on the back burner to refocus on Windows, where are you getting that from? A surge due to COVID has/still is being seen at many companies for obvious reasons. It will return to pre-lockdown norms eventually as the people return to normal.



Like most, they will deal with that when the time comes and decide what is appropriate at the time, given their choices now, that will be Apple where possible I suspect. My point is that they like others are deciding for today, not tomorrow, of course, those that know they will need a laptop/desktop due to their planned career choices will look at that those choices today.



Depends, think about how many average consumers have an iPhone then consider how many also have a 2nd or 3rd device, it can quickly add up to thousands of dollars on tech per head. Those that do not favour Apple which is indeed the majority will spend less, because they have the option, but offer them a compelling enough option to spend more, they will.

There was a report out that the reason that the Duo (or is it Neo?) their ARM based tablet was delayed is that discovered that people were using their Windows machines at home much more than than previously thought. Some of it was people working at home of course, but their analytics also pointed to gaming , browsing, and other activities such as video editing etc. And more and more these days people are complaining about the price of things and expecting free more and more. I was surprised to see it even on the Apple forums and the app store. Many refuse to buy new iPhones every year. And the reason in the past many didn't try Macs was because of the price... So I don't know. We live in the best of times and the worst of times.
[automerge]1593125663[/automerge]

Thanks for posting about the art end of things, this is quite helpful. Looking forward to using Painter Essentials on a Wacom tablet as soon as I feel comfortable with W10. I am so psyched to use the Wacom Pro pen. BTW have you posted your art on this forum? I'd like to see some please.

I'll have an HP Omen laptop on Tuesday (Ryzen). It should handle Corel, ArtRage, Affinity well (8 core Ryzen, GTX 1660 Ti). I like HP's keyboards a lot and was curious about Ryzen. Looking forward to diving in next week.

I almost went with a Surface yesterday, but the SL3s seem to have spontaneous cracking screens and SB3s are problematic too. Still rooting for MS to release a smaller Surface Studio with modern internals. That display is gorgeous.
[automerge]1593091341[/automerge]


I really like Craig, but it's Apple doublespeak at its finest there. I am more than a bit wary of what I've heard about the changes in Big Sur, and given how craptastic iPadOS is, well I cannot be too excited. Maybe they will surprise me post transition, but seeing that Apple cannot (or will not?) fix the touch irresponsiveness on iPads, makes me very skittish about trying a Mac with Apple silicon inside. I hope they get the cooling and thermals sorted for Macs.

Anyway, I hope they make something Mac users will enjoy.

I have a Surface Book and a Surface Laptop, haven't had any issues. The laptop is very thin, but has held up fine. I do take care of things though. I would be happy to share some of my art, but the only place I noticed here was about the Apple pencil, and I don't use that much. Here is a watercolor I did with Rebelle:
[automerge]1593125812[/automerge]

Thanks for posting about the art end of things, this is quite helpful. Looking forward to using Painter Essentials on a Wacom tablet as soon as I feel comfortable with W10. I am so psyched to use the Wacom Pro pen. BTW have you posted your art on this forum? I'd like to see some please.

I'll have an HP Omen laptop on Tuesday (Ryzen). It should handle Corel, ArtRage, Affinity well (8 core Ryzen, GTX 1660 Ti). I like HP's keyboards a lot and was curious about Ryzen. Looking forward to diving in next week.

I almost went with a Surface yesterday, but the SL3s seem to have spontaneous cracking screens and SB3s are problematic too. Still rooting for MS to release a smaller Surface Studio with modern internals. That display is gorgeous.
[automerge]1593091341[/automerge]


I really like Craig, but it's Apple doublespeak at its finest there. I am more than a bit wary of what I've heard about the changes in Big Sur, and given how craptastic iPadOS is, well I cannot be too excited. Maybe they will surprise me post transition, but seeing that Apple cannot (or will not?) fix the touch irresponsiveness on iPads, makes me very skittish about trying a Mac with Apple silicon inside. I hope they get the cooling and thermals sorted for Macs.

Anyway, I hope they make something Mac users will enjoy.

I have a Surface Book and a Surface Laptop, haven't had any issues. The laptop is very thin, but has held up fine. I do take care of things though. I would be happy to share some of my art, but the only place I noticed here was about the Apple pencil, and I don't use that much. Here is a watercolor I did with Rebelle:

This, I expect external drives to become a lot more prevalent as they continue to get smaller and faster combined with peoples desire to house files on a local device to share than solely on the cloud.

Absolutely, all of my clouds are backed up locally.