Surface Devices

[LeeW]

Wasn't really impressed, most of the features being added are long overdue like you said "asking for years". More of a catch-up. The problem is that the next must-have features will be years away again. But, like I said, better late than never, I guess.

I mean, it wasn't bad, some decent updates either way. Even if I was interested in a new Mac I would no way be amongst the 1st generation purchasers, it's going to be messy.

 

[maflynn]

I really didn't follow the presentation at all, too busy at work, but from what little I did see, I was impressed with the supposed performance gains.

For whatever reason, I had zero interest in paying attention, and work was snapping that whip on me as well.

 

[LeeW]

I was impressed with the supposed performance gains.

That's the thing, what were they? Aside from a couple of numbers, there was no actual information about performance. The demos looked good but they were using Pro Displays, no device insight, so likely a pimped Mac Pro underneath the desk which is not what your average consumer, editor, developer and so on will use.

Like I say, interesting, but no real information given about ARM, benchmarks, etc.

 

[Queen6]

That's the thing, what were they? Aside from a couple of numbers, there was no actual information about performance. The demos looked good but they were using Pro Displays, no device insight, so likely a pimped Mac Pro underneath the desk which is not what your average consumer, editor, developer and so on will use.

Like I say, interesting, but no real information given about ARM, benchmarks, etc.

I may be sceptical, equally I think there's a certain rational why Apple has been leaving a lot of Intel's performance on the table last few years. Once the Arm Mac's emerge they be at least equal, if not greater than the likes of the current Air...

Personally I think that the new Arm Mac's will appeal to more, especially those brought up on IOS, however will be bound to push some out. Apple is predominantly a company built on IOS devices and services the rest is simply a natural development, on a common hardware platform. Over all an interesting development...

What I would say is that I'd be more likely to look at an Arm Mac, say the equivalent of an Air as they are released over time, although Apple will support the Intel Mac's for some time they will clearly be the "poor relative" in the line up.

I'll be staying on the W10 platform, potentially Linux, equally I too would like to dump Intel as tired of their skeleton's rattling out the closest, red hot CPU,s and poor controlled progress. Ideally an AMD 8 core & Nvidia dGPU notebook.

One of the comments that did resonate was during the macOS Safari preview "I have my personality pretty thoroughly stamped over Safari" Problem being I don't trust Apple any more or less than the others, and I believe I'm wise not to...

Q-6

 

[grmlin]

This thread is still the best place to talk about Apple stuff, lol

I'm excited for iOS 14, widgets and all that + search in emojis. Finally

I'm very skeptical as a developer about the ARM switch. Let's see how docker etc. work on the new platform.
As a private user this is exciting. My oldish iPad Pro 9.7" is still fast enough for most things I do, so this could be glorious.

That's the thing, what were they? Aside from a couple of numbers, there was no actual information about performance. The demos looked good but they were using Pro Displays, no device insight, so likely a pimped Mac Pro underneath the desk which is not what your average consumer, editor, developer and so on will use.

Like I say, interesting, but no real information given about ARM, benchmarks, etc.

While I'm excited for the change, I also want to see real world results before getting too hyped. Intel and AMD CPUs power some serious punch, and I didn't see anything in that keynote that told me: we can do this better.
Wasn't it even the web version of Lightroom running there?
And Tomb Raider looked like crap. And while it's impressive that they managed to get it run at all, serious games are dead on MacOS on ARM, developers already don't care for MacOS ports and everybody uses Windows instead.

 

[kazmac]

This keynote was the push I needed to finally commit to Windows.

Circling a few PC laptops (HP Omen with Ryzen, an MSI, possibly Razer and MS SB3 13"). The SB3 is last place at the moment because of the cpu & gpu. I love the keyboard and the display, but I probably wouldn’t use the tablet though.

And yay! performed my first bit of successful w10 troubleshooting this morning. 🤯

Who knows? Apple could surprise me a few years from now, but I need to step away for work and play.

 

[LeeW]

While I'm excited for the change, I also want to see real world results before getting too hyped. Intel and AMD CPUs power some serious punch, and I didn't see anything in that keynote that told me: we can do this better.

Indeed and this is what I queried some pages back. I mean the IPP, it's a powerhouse right, no doubt about it. In fact, I would say that the A12Z is so good that it is being let down considerably by iPadOS in that it is really not pushing it to anywhere near its true capability.

Now let's call the next chip the A14 and put it inside an MBP or an iMac, running macOS, running full productivity software, all your usual apps running the background and everything else you would expect from a desktop. Is it really going to be that much better than AMD/Intel? At a far lower wattage?

I don't think so. Sure it will have lots of advantages, I don't see performance being the stand out feature.

 

[grmlin]

yeah. I want to see it handling IDEs, browsers of all sort, terminals, file watchers, whatever running at the same time, eating massive amounts of ram and still perform good. Then I'm impressed

 

[Queen6]

This thread is still the best place to talk about Apple stuff, lol

I'm excited for iOS 14, widgets and all that + search in emojis. Finally

I'm very skeptical as a developer about the ARM switch. Let's see how docker etc. work on the new platform.
As a private user this is exciting. My oldish iPad Pro 9.7" is still fast enough for most things I do, so this could be glorious.



While I'm excited for the change, I also want to see real world results before getting too hyped. Intel and AMD CPUs power some serious punch, and I didn't see anything in that keynote that told me: we can do this better.
Wasn't it even the web version of Lightroom running there?
And Tomb Raider looked like crap. And while it's impressive that they managed to get it run at all, serious games are dead on MacOS on ARM, developers already don't care for MacOS ports and everybody uses Windows instead.

The WWDC Keynote is very much a sales & marketing showcase, so Apple will always want to put it's best foot forward. The transition to Arm Mac's will take time no doubt and credit where credit is due Apple is "grabbing the Bull by the horns" and leaving the Intel monopoly.

LOL, Yeah Tomb Raider did look really bad, equally if all running Apple SOC it's remains interesting. Optimism and sell up was hilarious. If I look at an ARM Mac will be low power 12"/13" as don't see AMD or Intel being remotely challenged for a good while to come, nor will they stand still...

Q-6

 

[Mendota]

I'm going to be watching WWDC with interest today (U.K time). Will anyone else be watching it?

I will watch out of curiosity to see what Apple is up to, I don't expect to be excited by anything, as I haven't been excited by Apple in quite awhile.

Well, I watched a bit of it. It didn't really change my mind about Apple. The issue I have with IOS as with all of Apple's products is the restrictions and the locked down nature. What I want is a decent file system! Is that too much to ask? With Apple it is. They want to route everything through their app stores, this is why they won't open the files system. An open file system would mean that you could install third party software (and we can't have that!). And well... Facetime and iMessage do nothing for me. I don't really use many widgets because I like to have a clean desk top on all my devices to include my Android systems. I hate clutter, and the only thing on Android is a transparent widget with the weather information. Nothing at all on my Windows desktop except the recycle bin. This allows me to see the desktop wallpaper that is my own art. I hate clutter! I also am not that fond of emulation software, so Windows apps will not run well. For me, this is just Apple adding so more portals to look out of their walled garden. I prefer to live in the free and open world. I will visit from time to time with a basic iPad, bought refurbished and leave it at that.

 

[canesalato]

- Personally, I think the ARM part was great. They taught Microsoft how it is done. Meanwhile a Surface Pro X, which came out last year and was announced much earlier, still cannot run software like lightroom, affinity photo/designer, or (list time I checked) even desktop Dropbox. Basically, any intel 64 bit code. And with the way Microsoft commits to things (not much), it’s really hard to recommend that specific device, at that price.
No, at ANY price. So, I had to say, great job Apple.

- to me, the new Mac OS design is very unremarkable...well, even ugly. It is basically iOS with some icons having a heavier shadow and extra color saturation everywhere. Even though I am not a Mac user anymore, I felt a sense of sadness looking at that. Mac OS used to be so beautiful! At the same time, they managed to do a complete redesign in one version, and that’s an effort I really respect. On the other end, Microsoft is implementing the fluent design so slowly that the system is being left (for years) in a weird middle ground...Not good. Microsoft can definitely learn a lot. Once again, great job Apple, on pushing out a new child so well, even though it’s an ugly child. Apples, you have great coders, please get better designers. Microsoft, you have great designers, please get some coders.

- iOS Apps will run without changes on ARM Macs. Great... does that mean touch screen Macs? More importantly, will small developers still make new Mac OS apps, aside from updating the existing ones? Quantity over quality? Aside from that,
this feels like a clever way to push the App Store, as those iOS-derived Apps will only be available there. Smart evil.

 

[SteveJUAE]

If you woke up and it was 2022 and you never had a laptop/tablet/phone before then maybe Apple vision of cross platform functionality etc and almost single source app would make sense

However

Given for now no touch on laptops/Imac, muscle memory on app usage (ie it's still easier to access your phone for little apps even when a big screen is in front of you) this is just the walled garden on steroids and extended in to all hardware too

This will be a massive commitment for Apple users, best of luck to them

 

[Mendota]

I applaud Microsoft for their approach. This is what makes it a viable and reliable system for professionals and anyone who wants stability. Apple is always off chasing after locked in rainbows. You cannot depend on them, and it is not only users that feel this way, it also keeps developers away. An recent example of their attitude is getting rid of 32 bit app support. It is constant upheaval. As for Microsoft Surface X, it is just a product for those that want something basic, to compete with Chromebook, so there is no need for them to create chaos by replacing one system with another. At the end of the day Microsoft knows that most people prefer Windows 10. I am not knocking Apple completely, for some users it may be the bomb, and for those locked into Apple's garden, they don't know any better. I don't think that this will attract more users to MacOS... but maybe that is the point.

 

[Queen6]

I applaud Microsoft for their approach. This is what makes it a viable and reliable system for professionals and anyone who wants stability. Apple is always off chasing after locked in rainbows. You cannot depend on them, and it is not only users that feel this way, it also keeps developers away. An recent example of their attitude is getting rid of 32 bit app support. It is constant upheaval. As for Microsoft Surface X, it is just a product for those that want something basic, to compete with Chromebook, so there is no need for them to create chaos by replacing one system with another. At the end of the day Microsoft knows that most people prefer Windows 10. I am not knocking Apple completely, for some users it may be the bomb, and for those locked into Apple's garden, they don't know any better. I don't think that this will attract more users to MacOS... but maybe that is the point.

Apple can pivot the Mac and macOS as it's not it's bread & butter, nor has been for long time. By moving macOS closer to IOS Apple likely stands to gain more casual users, than the losses of the old guard. The Battle for the commercial desktop OS was won decades ago, equally that leaves Microsoft in the difficult position of supporting so many legacy formats, applications and myriad hardware, yet continuously needs to move forward.

Apple's approach is to lock in and lock-down it's users with a front of simplicity & security, which is predominantly to force sales of multiple hardware devices and all software through the App Store. With Arm Apple will likely push further for the Mac to depend on Apple's own store. Apple doesn't like or care for open system's & hardware as it's harder for Apple to control the revenue stream which in reality is what it's all about.

ARM on the Mac is superficially interesting, equally if people have qualms now they are unlikely to be pleased with further restrictions of a desktop OS more aligned with IOS than the past. Much of this brings Linux ever closer as it remains to be in the users control not the provider...

Q-6

 

[LeeW]

Much of this brings Linux ever closer as it remains to be in the users control not the provider...

As you noted, it will bring in more casual users, those who will be happy enough with the more tightly integrated way of doing things as they are casual users with multiple devices who will appreciate the way everything connects.

Linux is still too far away for most and in fact, will always be too far away from an OS that will work for those casual users.

 

[LeeW]

Personally, I think the ARM part was great. They taught Microsoft how it is done. Meanwhile a Surface Pro X, which came out last year and was announced much earlier, still cannot run software like lightroom, affinity photo/designer, or (list time I checked) even desktop Dropbox. Basically, any intel 64 bit code.

Microsoft is good at launching devices and simply handing them over and saying, "Make your software work on this, whenever you are ready". They do need to get better at that.

Apple will have incentivised Adobe as it's an important software for a key user type, creatives. They will push hard on a lot of developers to move quickly. They are good at that.

 

[Dave245]

I was disappointed that no iMac was announced yesterday, however at the end Tim said "we plan to ship our first Mac with Apple silicone by the end of this year" that sounds promising. Also he mentioned that they intend to continue with Intel based Macs for a few more years (probably while they fully transition).

Personally i'm going to hold off and see what they announce with a new iMac, also this ARM machine later this year now has my interest.

There is simply too much to mention everything that was announced yesterday, but this year is the first year where i have liked EVERYTHING that they announced in IOS, iPadOS, WatchOS and MacOS.

 

[grmlin]

I think that if the new iMac will be ARM based, it makes much more sense that they didn't update it for the last years.

I don't think they will release a redesigned iMac with "old" Intel hardware at this point anymore

 

[maflynn]

I think that if the new iMac will be ARM based

Given the announcement and the fact that ARM is the future, I agree. That machine may be in the first wave of ARM Macs

 

[Dave245]

I think that if the new iMac will be ARM based, it makes much more sense that they didn't update it for the last years.

I don't think they will release a redesigned iMac with "old" Intel hardware at this point anymore

Instant buy if they do it with a redesign!

 

[maflynn]

Microsoft is good at launching devices and simply handing them over and saying, "Make your software work on this, whenever you are ready". They do need to get better at that.

Apple will have incentivised Adobe as it's an important software for a key user type, creatives. They will push hard on a lot of developers to move quickly. They are good at that.

My take is that Apple had to incentivize developers, including Adobe. Otherwise, they'd put it on the back burner and not really dedicate much resources or not do it at all. I know they downplayed the work of moving apps to a new platform, they did that when they went from PPC to Intel, yet for many applications, it wasn't that simple. Maybe things have changed and it will be, but Its in Apple best interest to put as much pressure on publishers and developers to embrace the new platform.

LOL, Yeah Tomb Raider did look really bad,

How so? Poor frame rate? I missed that portion of the dog and pony show

 

[grmlin]

Here is a link to the part where they show Tombraider

While it seems to run at 1080p (that's what they said), it looks like garbage. All settings down to minimum I guess.

I think it's great that it runs at all, basically on an iPad. Impressive stuff. But it still looks terrible lol. We all know how much love Mac ports get from game developers, I think it's worse than Linux at this point. So this change will kill games on MacOS that are not iOS based imo.

 

[Falhófnir]

Here is a link to the part where they show Tombraider

While it seems to run at 1080p (that's what they said), it looks like garbage. All settings down to minimum I guess.

I think it's great that it runs at all, basically on an iPad. Impressive stuff. But it still looks terrible lol. We all know how much love Mac ports get from game developers, I think it's worse than Linux at this point. So this change will kill games on MacOS that are not iOS based imo.

I guess limited by graphics performance, which is supposed to be at around early 8th gen console level? Think that probably looks about right for console (without the cheats and optimisations they often use to make it look better than it should).

 

[maflynn]

While it seems to run at 1080p (that's what they said), it looks like garbage. All settings down to minimum I guess.

Oh i see that, yeah it doesn't look very good, but then gaming on the Mac is pretty pitiful, its not going to impact many mac users.

 

[grmlin]

Oh i see that, yeah it doesn't look very good, but then gaming on the Mac is pretty pitiful, its not going to impact many mac users.

It will have an impact, because you can't switch to Windows in Bootcamp and game there anymore...