Swiss Federal Railways Says Apple Copied Its Iconic Railway Clock

[50548]

WTF? Switzerland's the least communist county in the world - the whole country is reigned by one thing and one thing alone: money. The Swiss are born capitalists. The only aim in life here is to make sh**loads of money and to rub it in your neighbor's face by buying the Audi or BMW that's one bigger than the neighbor's Audi or BMW. I live in the countryside. I'm surrounded by farmers. All of them drive 80k BMWs and Audis - I don't recall seeing that back home in the US.

Just three points of clarification:

1 - By "communist" I mean the State-driven mentality ("State takes care of you so no complaints allowed") and institutional attitude that actively defends duopolies like Migros/COOP etc.; I've never seen anything like it anywhere else in the world;

2 - Farmers get 80k cars because they are HEAVILY subsidized to sell us Bio junk and the most expensive beef on Earth, it's very simple; the other day I was hiking with some friends, and a German colleague pointed me to a "poor" farmer in a very nice house, with a brand new car and a three-number plate (the most expensive to get);

3 - Despite all my criticism, I do think that Apple should just pay SBB something and get over with it - even if the sheer legality of it all can be discussed (considering registration terms, applicability of copyright for this case and so on), it is clear that the design was drawn almost directly from Hilfiker's creation (this case is clearer than the Delicious Library, which simply used wooden shelves).

 

[samcraig]

I don't think Apple is trying to "steal" the design and passing it off as their own in this case. It's a classic clock, it's obvious they are trying to use it as the original clock. The question is if the use of that design really is trademarked and if it's even trademarked BY the SBB or by Hans Hilfiker and if the SBB is trying to protect it, or just trying to get some money.

I personally believe that everyone's hard work should be protected so if the SBB does own the right, Apple should compensate them.

BUT on another note, this is not like the Samsung case at all. Apple is not stealing the clock look to SELL clocks. And by them using the clock look is not causing the SBB any financial losses so those who are asking for that $1B lawsuit are not being very realistic.

Quite honestly - it doesn't matter what you think Apple is or isn't trying to do. Nor does it matter whether you think SBB is suffering damages or not. If the design needs to be licensed - it needs to be licensed. That's all that matters.

 

[kis]

The question is if the use of that design really is trademarked and if it's even trademarked BY the SBB or by Hans Hilfiker and if the SBB is trying to protect it, or just trying to get some money.

The design is owned by SBB. SBB makes a lot of money licensing the design to other companies. So if some company (let's say Apple) uses the design without paying for it, that should get their a***s sued.

 

[wolfmaniac]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with everything you just said. Prices here are insane (e.g. we pay almost 10 times as much for mobile services as the Austrians). And yes - customer service and consumer rights are a fraking joke here. ESPECIALLY for the Post and the SBB. 1 year warranties, no returns possible (if they sell you broken crap, they'll gladly send it in for repairs and you'll get it back unrepaired after 6-12 weeks), online shops claiming that they have stuff in stock, take your money and then say they can't deliver (there's also no way to cancel your orders heres - once you've ordered, you're screwed). On the other hand, if you don't pay right away for pre-paid items, businesses will pretty much immediately forward the matter to the enforcement agency, which will result in you getting a negative entry in the registry, which, in turn, results in you never ever getting a credit or a mortgage again in your lifetime.

Hooray for Switzerland! Seriously - I was born and raised here. There's a reason why Switzerland's the richest fraking country in the world: they sure as hell know how to hoard money and to screw those who gave them the money. There's no other country in the world were tax evasion will end you up in prison for a lot longer than killing someone.

My advise? Move away as far as possible! - A fellow Swiss

 

[Rychy]

Dang, no denying that. Love the design though, hopefully they license it.

 

[50548]

The design is owned by SBB. SBB makes a lot of money licensing the design to other companies. So if some company (let's say Apple) uses the design without paying for it, that should get their a***s sued.

Couldn't find that design registration under SwissReg...have you?

p.s.: I've found the 3d mark registration - see one of my posts above. However, it indicates the term of protection as expired...

 

[kis]

Just three points of clarification:

1 - By "communist" I mean the State-driven mentality ("State takes care of you so no complaints allowed") and institutional attitude that actively defends duopolies like Migros/COOP etc.; I've never seen anything like it anywhere else in the world

it's called lobbying - and it's exactly the same as in the US. The pharma lobby, the telecom lobby and the food lobby etc. make sure Swisscom doesn't get privatized, medication remains insanely expensive and Coop gets to buy EPA just to close it down and to get rid of yet another competitor.

I really don't agree that people expect anything from the State - very much to the contrary: most of us here have the feeling that we pay taxes like crazy and never get anything in return. In many other countries, health-care is nationalized for example - not so in Switzerland.

The only thing that sets us apart from the US is the 4-5 weeks of vacation we get per year - and even that is about to be abolished as larger companies no longer have to register their employees' work times and can thus make them work 80 hours per week without vacation time.

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Couldn't find that design registration under SwissReg...have you?

I didn't look - but if SBB publicy announces that they own the design, I tend to believe them.

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My advise? Move away as far as possible! - A fellow Swiss

nah, I'm doing the next best thing: live in Switzerland and buy everything in Germany.

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My advise? Move away as far as possible! - A fellow Swiss

And you know what: you've just proven BRLawyer's point: as soon as someone starts criticizing Swiss customs (such as sucky customer service), he's politely asked to leave. What people here don't realize is that if nobody starts acting up, things will never change.

But being a fundamentally masochistic nation is also one of Switzerland's national treasures. No other people would vote against increasing the vacation time from 4 to 6 weeks, even though it's a proven fact that this would not have harmed the businesses one iota.

 

[50548]

it's called lobbying - and it's exactly the same as in the US. The pharma lobby, the telecom lobby and the food lobby etc. make sure Swisscom doesn't get privatized, medication remains insanely expensive and Coop gets to buy EPA just to close it down and to get rid of yet another competitor.

Oh, absolutely. That doesn't mean it's acceptable from a legal or moral standpoint. Carrefour used to provide an excellent grocery shopping experience around here - until they were bought out by COOP without even a sniff of antitrust action by local authorities.

I remember reading a legal journal once that indicated the Swiss grocery market as probably the most concentrated in the world; almost a perfect duopoly with the full support of the State.

nah, I'm doing the next best thing: live in Switzerland and buy everything in Germany.

Wise words - but this is also being clamped down, and will get worse if/when the Swiss current account surplus tumbles.

 

[morob05]

So what happens now? Well, probably Apple will sue the Swiss Federal Railway service for using a circle in their clock face design Clearly the circle is infringing on the iconic design of the iPod click wheel

 

[Michaeldx]

I suppose they are going to sue all these people too : Analog Clocks

 

[neuropsychguy]

The "timing" of this couldn't be any worse.....
(I've got more of them, don't tempt me)

If you don't watch it, you'll have to do an about-face and ride the train out of this forum if you post any more puns.

 

[Daalseth]

A copy but

If I had to guess I'd suspect that this was a copy. However the designer likely assumed that this design, which has been around for who knows how many decades, was public domain. A screw-up but an honest one.

 

[kevinws]

I have that wrist watch. I love that they used it and i love the icon bring it to the iphone please!

Where did you get it! I need another watch and was looking for one with a white face.

 

[kis]

I remember reading a legal journal once that indicated the Swiss grocery market as probably the most concentrated in the world; almost a perfect duopoly with the full support of the State.

yupp - same goes for the telecom market. We have three "competitors" here - but all of them have the same prices and all of them have neglected to invest in their networks, although the margins here are 4-5x higher than in most other countries. The State does nothing - for two reasons: the telecom lobby is particularly strong in Switzerland and, of course, because the State owns Swisscom, which is a gigantic cash cow.

 

[Flux.Capacitor]

Quite honestly - it doesn't matter what you think Apple is or isn't trying to do. Nor does it matter whether you think SBB is suffering damages or not. If the design needs to be licensed - it needs to be licensed. That's all that matters.

The design is owned by SBB. SBB makes a lot of money licensing the design to other companies. So if some company (let's say Apple) uses the design without paying for it, that should get their a***s sued.

I completely agree with both of you. And as I've said before, i believe Apple SHOULD pay the owner of the trademark/copyright to use the design of that clock. I never said they shouldn't. All I said was that it's not worthy of a billion dollar lawsuit. My "opinion" that Apple is not trying to pass the design off as their own has absolutely nothing to do with whether they should pay to use it or not.

 

[sarge]

It's already patented by the creator, Hans Hilfiker...

For those of you interested in more details - the registration is of course STILL valid.

Edit: Oops, wrong link...just hang on.

Found a tridimensional trademark registration for SBB here:

https://www.swissreg.ch/srclient/faces/jsp/trademark/sr30.jsp#anchor_register

Ironically, it states that protection ended on 3 September 2012

I'm sure there is a patent lawyer around that can chime in on this, but copyright and patent protection exist to allow the inventor/creator to benefit for a limited duration after the publication of their creation (30 years for patents and 75 years for copyright).
Assuming they are not updated or improved upon, the idea enters the 'public domain'. Of course corporations hope to extend these protections in-perpetuity so they can continue to collect royalties, but it might be that the clock has run out on Hans Hilfiker's patent!

 

[Kebabselector]

Both clocks look like the ones at Canary Wharf (London) - not sure if it's been mentioned already (did thread search first)

 

[usarioclave]

outrage!

You mean Switzerland copyrighted a circle with lines? How ridiculous!

 

[Windlasher]

We don't have checks anymore in switzerland... but that's not the point.

This clock is really something special, we love it and it is part of Switzerland's identity, even when the trademark belongs to the SBB.

I love both, my country and Apple(-products). In this case it's very obvious that Apple just copied the design. This is not right, especially not after this Samsung story.

I hope they can find an agreement that respects the copyright and will allow Apple the use the design. After all it is nice to see that they opted for a little bit of swiss design.

By the way, we are definitely an Apple country... with some hardcore androidians ;-)

I was kidding more or less... Just getting tired of all the lawsuits. The original article said that they were going to sue apple. How about a nicely worded letter that said... "stop using our clock design, or call us to make some arrangements", instead of "we are going to sue the pants off of you".

 

[Swissdude]

Cool

Hey cool that Apple picked the design.. Now just add the swisscross and SBB in the watch and all will be happy.

 

[Technarchy]

If they are blatant copiers, then yes. Ironically, you never seem to have this idea with Samsung.

I think it would be great if Samsung would say it's not worth fighting over and stop copying Apple, and change up their software.

 

[50548]

I'm sure there is a patent lawyer around that can chime in on this, but copyright and patent protection exist to allow the inventor/creator to benefit for a limited duration after the publication of their creation (30 years for patents and 75 years for copyright).
Assuming they are not updated or improved upon, the idea enters the 'public domain'. Of course corporations hope to extend these protections in-perpetuity so they can continue to collect royalties, but it might be that the clock has run out on Hans Hilfiker's patent!

I am an IP lawyer (among other areas) and must clarify that copyright and patent apply to totally distinct subject matters. As far as I could find, SBB only detains a tridimensional trademark on the clock, which of course entitles it to seek infringement remedies.

Apple may have thought it to be in the public domain; but if the term of protection is still valid, this would actually be a pretty sloppy job (not that it surprises me, as engineers and marketing people OFTEN do their crap BEFORE consulting counsel).

 

[morob05]

You mean Switzerland copyrighted a circle with lines? How ridiculous!

Almost as ridiculous as getting a patent and copyright on rectangular shapes with rounded edges...

 

[coccodrillo]

You read me wrong: I am calling the average Swiss CUSTOMER stupid. Because the AVERAGE Swiss mentality is one of a tamed person not willing/used to complaining.

For them, everything the State does is right, and if it's being done in a certain way it is, indeed, the best way.

I remember trying to return a defective product at a Swiss store once, just to be asked a thousand questions as to imply that I was the one creating the defect.

Same for road works: ALL over the place, even when there is nothing to be fixed. No deadlines set, no care for the individual driver. They just think that you are supposed to withstand a single-lane autobahn for 40km without ever complaining.

And I haven't even started with restaurant service levels - abysmal when compared to places like Brazil and the US. It's almost as if everyone is doing you a favor, even when you are paying the highest prices on Earth for a tiny piece of beef.

It's ultimately the last communist country on Earth - but it works pretty well as long as money keeps flowing inside. And yes, on paper it's a really nice little place - organized, peaceful (except for crime-ridden Geneva), clean, beautiful landscapes etc...wonderful for tourists. But once you start discovering its idiosyncrasies it can get really annoying (and I am not saying other countries don't have their own problems, of course)...

p.s.: Finally, I don't think it's a language issue (although I admit that the French and Italian parts are better) - I work in French, English, Spanish and Portuguese and get by with my German. But almost every day I hear my German friends complaining about the same things; or my German-fluent wife, for that matter.

Dear Lawyer,
i see you have no idea how our little country works. Switzerland has a unique voting system among democracies which makes us responsible what happens in our country. Responsibility is the word which many of other countries lack at the moment. Everyone is complaining about their governement and take absolutely no responsibility for anything. And this political system give us Swiss people at the end more power than the governement itself has (of course it's still a democracy - some votes you'll win others you loose). I think this is the main reason, why our economy works so well at the moment: not because of the money but because we are responsible for our country instead of complaining all the time.

To discuss the topic: I think Apple knows exactly what they were doing with the clock. Thanks for the discussion and the Swiss advertising - for free

 

[chisnic]

You read me wrong: I am calling the average Swiss CUSTOMER stupid. Because the AVERAGE Swiss mentality is one of a tamed person not willing/used to complaining.

For them, everything the State does is right, and if it's being done in a certain way it is, indeed, the best way.

I remember trying to return a defective product at a Swiss store once, just to be asked a thousand questions as to imply that I was the one creating the defect.

Same for road works: ALL over the place, even when there is nothing to be fixed. No deadlines set, no care for the individual driver. They just think that you are supposed to withstand a single-lane autobahn for 40km without ever complaining.

And I haven't even started with restaurant service levels - abysmal when compared to places like Brazil and the US. It's almost as if everyone is doing you a favor, even when you are paying the highest prices on Earth for a tiny piece of beef.

It's ultimately the last communist country on Earth - but it works pretty well as long as money keeps flowing inside. And yes, on paper it's a really nice little place - organized, peaceful (except for crime-ridden Geneva), clean, beautiful landscapes etc...wonderful for tourists. But once you start discovering its idiosyncrasies it can get really annoying (and I am not saying other countries don't have their own problems, of course)...

p.s.: Finally, I don't think it's a language issue (although I admit that the French and Italian parts are better) - I work in French, English, Spanish and Portuguese and get by with my German. But almost every day I hear my German friends complaining about the same things; or my German-fluent wife, for that matter.

For someone who was not born and raised in Switzerland, and does not know its cultural background, it might be difficult to understand why Swiss do the things the way they do ... what it comes down to, it is just in their DNA. You probably will never understand them or accept the Swiss way of life.

There are many things that are not perfect in CH, but using words like "stupid" toward the average Swiss, shows quite some ignorance and intolerance towards his host country. I'm Swiss, living in the U.S. which I love, but also see many imperfections in the way Americans do things, nevertheless, I try to show tolerance and respect and therefore I might even learn something from them. Who is to say, that your opinion about CH is the right one? Sounds pretty conceded to me!