Telegram CEO Arrested in France Over Content Moderation Issues

[hans1972]

Right, because all of the public groups there are being heavily investigated by law enforcement — in other words they've done absolutely everything to fight crime with the resources they had. Right?

When they tried, Telegram didn't even try to help the authorities.

We should be able to have effective crime fighting and not need to investigate millions of crime if you can stop a lot of them by making one entity change their illegal behaviour.

This is going after the distribution method which often is quite effective.

 

[alexandr]

When they tried, Telegram didn't even try to help the authorities.

We should be able to have effective crime fighting and not need to investigate millions of crime if you can stop a lot of them by making one entity change their illegal behaviour.

This is going after the distribution method which often is quite effective.

I understand your POV, but I see this as being completely powerless at fighting the listed crimes and looking for someone to blame. I mean what was stopping authorities(of all sorts of countries) from putting an end to these crimes before social networks and OMG before the internet?

Also you ignored what I said about public groups

 

[jblank]

When they tried, Telegram didn't even try to help the authorities.

We should be able to have effective crime fighting and not need to investigate millions of crime if you can stop a lot of them by making one entity change their illegal behaviour.

This is going after the distribution method which often is quite effective.

Is it effective though? Criminals adapt, see the failed war on drugs in the US.

Isn’t it likely they’ll just explore other avenues?

 

[SBlue1]

What is “content moderation” and who decides what content to moderate? In my opinion the free world is heading in the direction of controlled and compelled speech. Wasn't there a novel about this very thing?

This is nothing new. In Europe free speech and free expression has its limits, and its been this was for ages, we are not heading there just now. You can't just spread hate or start an uproar and then hide cowardly behind a free speech banner. It's written in the law what is acceptable and what is not, and in cases where it's not that clear judges get to decide. We like it that way, and we like it in newspapers printed on paper as well as in social media on our smartphones.

If Americans want to tolerate a swastika T-shirt it's your thing. You do you. We don't tolerate swastikas and we don't want Americans to tell us we have to because of free speach. If my wife can't go topless on a Florida beach you can't go swastika speedos on a German beach.

 

[Aoligei]

Is it effective though? Criminals adapt, see the failed war on drugs in the US.

Isn’t it likely they’ll just explore other avenues?

Criminal adapts, do does police work involve. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be tough on crime.

Failed drug war is due to we aren't tough with drug related penalties. See how Asian countries, such as China, Singapore deal with crime.

Death penalty on anyone found carrying 50g of drugs.. We are in a scotity that has too much tolerance on drugs...

 

[alexandr]

This is nothing new. In Europe free speech and free expression has its limits, and its been this was for ages, we are not heading there just now. You can't just spread hate or start an uproar and then hide cowardly behind a free speech banner. It's written in the law what is acceptable and what is not, and in cases where it's not that clear judges get to decide. We like it that way, and we like it in newspapers printed on paper as well as in social media on our smartphones.

If Americans want to tolerate a swastika T-shirt it's your thing. You do you. We don't tolerate swastikas and we don't want Americans to tell us we have to because of free speach. If my wife can't go topless on a Florida beach you can't go swastika speedos on a German beach.

Wow, it's really been working out for you recently, hasn't it? No national flags burned at any recent protests? Ok, just checking.

 

[SBlue1]

I don't think a company's CEO gets to make the call about what I can say.

Thats funny. I keep liking a certain article on Twitter every day because Elon decided he doesn't like it since its about him and he keeps the likes disappearing.

 

[Harry Haller]

What is hate speech?

 

[Nuno Lopes]

It's not, almost nothing on Telegram is end-to-end encrypted

User have the option of secret-chat l, but initiator need to enable it. With this enabled not even Telegram has easy access to it, if such access is even possible.

We just don’t know the details of the arrest.

But I suspect that there may be DSA compliance issues paired with some well identified ilegal activities on the platform.

I’m a bit concerned about having private companies self policing these communication tools as much as I would have telcos do the same to phone or video calls.

 

[jblank]

Criminal adapts, do does police work involve. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be tough on crime.

Failed drug war is due to we aren't tough with drug related penalties. See how Asian countries, such as China, Singapore deal with crime.

Death penalty on anyone found carrying 50g of drugs.. We are in a scotity that has too much tolerance on drugs...

I don't disagree, on many things we have been too soft on crime. The government did go pretty hard on dealers but they also were giving sentences to people (users) for drug crimes that were on par with things like SA. It had no real effect.

I agree with you on the "too tolerant" aspect but I really don't think we need to look at China for how to combat drug use.

 

[jblank]

This is nothing new. In Europe free speech and free expression has its limits, and its been this was for ages, we are not heading there just now. You can't just spread hate or start an uproar and then hide cowardly behind a free speech banner. It's written in the law what is acceptable and what is not, and in cases where it's not that clear judges get to decide. We like it that way, and we like it in newspapers printed on paper as well as in social media on our smartphones.

If Americans want to tolerate a swastika T-shirt it's your thing. You do you. We don't tolerate swastikas and we don't want Americans to tell us we have to because of free speach. If my wife can't go topless on a Florida beach you can't go swastika speedos on a German beach.

With respect, I think you're speaking for yourself more than for Europe as a whole. What do you define as "hate"? Do you not see how this opens you up to government just cracking down on whatever they deem unpalatable? If you can't say what government doesn't want you to say, then you don't really have a free society. Some people are fine with being ruled though so you do you, as you said. I would have hoped that decades under the Gestapo and Stasi would have made support for free speech and expression as popular as beer in Germany.

But you tolerate the hammer and sickle? Right?

You're taking this to quite out there circumstances. Many European governments are going after people for things that are waaaaaaaaaaaay more tame than swastika wearing. For the record there are a tremendous amount of nude beaches in a variety of states, all are just privately owned.

 

[AlexJaye]

Europe is definitely not the place to do new business with or to travel to these days. Their new leaders are locking up native citizens for complaining about the current situation over there, as well. Then again, the USA is likely following suit, so, Russia is probably enjoying the breakdown of Western culture.

 

[splifingate]

swastika speedos on a German beach

gah!

I felt this way after the second time I stared into the Sun . . . some images just don't fade.

 

[splifingate]

He has a responsibility to moderate content as a CEO, but since when is running a company poorly a crime?

respondeat superior

 

[Aoligei]

I don't disagree, on many things we have been too soft on crime. The government did go pretty hard on dealers but they also were giving sentences to people (users) for drug crimes that were on par with things like SA. It had no real effect.

I agree with you on the "too tolerant" aspect but I really don't think we need to look at China for how to combat drug use.

How about we actually start to get tough on crime and drugs?

That not the only thing we should do. Setup tip line for relative and send drug addicts to mandatory rehabilitation. Repeated offernder will se longer and longer time in rehabilitation facilities and prison.

We should also start educating our kids about danger of drugs. School should start show effects of drugs on person's body and how its affecting families and society.

It doesn't help that in western nations, there is so.much beliefs about personal freedom, not anything about personal responsibilities and social responsibilities.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Social media companies can easily, legally, and openly monitor their content.

Posting information in an open forum is no different than speaking aloud in public. But when companies promote that communication in certain forms flowing across their network is private then there is an expectation of privacy even from the social media company. The wiretap and privacy statutes are nuanced and changing.

 

[Shirasaki]

We are slowly but surely driving into authoritarian territory while bitching about Putin or China. Worked out great the first time around!

I thought we already lived in such authoritarian world? It’s just a different flavour in western world compared to China Russia etc, and I personally prefer the western version since it makes a bit more sense.

If it's end to end encrypted, what is he supposed to do. Last time I checked End to End encryption wasn't (yet) illegal. Might as well ban talking with closed doors.

Governments around the world really wants to copy China‘s mass scale surveillance to the point of installing security cameras in literally every closed space possible: bedrooms, bathrooms, attics and so on. It’s the strong pushback from people and some politicians that keeps that kind of mass surveillance at bay, for now.

 

[Aoligei]

With respect, I think you're speaking for yourself more than for Europe as a whole. What do you define as "hate"? Do you not see how this opens you up to government just cracking down on whatever they deem unpalatable? If you can't say what government doesn't want you to say, then you don't really have a free society. Some people are fine with being ruled though so you do you, as you said. I would have hoped that decades under the Gestapo and Stasi would have made support for free speech and expression as popular as beer in Germany.

But you tolerate the hammer and sickle? Right?

You're taking this to quite out there circumstances. Many European governments are going after people for things that are waaaaaaaaaaaay more tame than swastika wearing. For the record there are a tremendous amount of nude beaches in a variety of states, all are just privately owned.

It is pretty much defined on the criminal law, what is hate crime. It is pretty much black and white. And guess what, since you guys are love so much about democracy, all the lawmakers who made hate speech law were elected by their own people.

I think it should be common sense that your freedom should be not harmful to other or at expense of other people. If you think it is okay to yell racism comments or bullying someone else, because you believe so called freedom of expression, then you be you.

If someone was bullied on internet and committed suicide, or if group of people conspring tourist plan that kills hundreds of people, or of someone is commiting fraud to olderly via social media. Are you still insisting freedom on expression? Just because the harm isn't done to you, doesn't means someone else isn't experiencing it.

In same time, if your argument actually stands, then why do we even need criminals code? Everything that listed on criminal code is infringing on citizen's right. I think I have freedom to kill someone, and my right of commiting homicide is being infringed by government. Don't you find this ridiculous? If yes, then why don't you agree limitations on freedom of expression?

 

[Aoligei]

I thought we already lived in such authoritarian world? It’s just a different flavour in western world compared to China Russia etc, and I personally prefer the western version since it makes a bit more sense.

Governments around the world really wants to copy China‘s mass scale surveillance to the point of installing security cameras in literally every closed space possible: bedrooms, bathrooms, attics and so on. It’s the strong pushback from people and some politicians that keeps that kind of mass surveillance at bay, for now.

In the same time, criminal were got caught when help of cameras. You don't find lots of thefts and people can generally walk at midnight without fear being robbed.

I don't mind cameras, we already have lots of cameras anyway. Most big malls, public facilities, private places all have security cameras installed, at least here in Canada anyway. I actually think cameras should be installed in public spaces anyway, you can't reasonably expect privacy in the public spaces anyway.

 

[Return Zero]

Telegram is the distribution method for a lot of criminal activity including murder-for-hire, child pornography, money-laundering, transportation and sale of narcotics, organised fraud, hacking tools etc.

It's much better to take the distribution method instead of going after what might be millions of people committing crimes.

I get that, and I suppose you may be right. It’s just hard for me to believe on a behavioral basis, but granted that’s not my area of expertise.

I would need to be convinced that telegram has actually caused an increase in criminal activity, not just an increase in the visibility of it. It seems to me there are plenty of other options besides telegram for criminals to do their deals on, but maybe that’s not the case?

 

[Chuckeee]

So blaming everyone but the criminals themselves, I see…make the majority suffer because a few are bad. Gotcha. Durov is not the police. Maybe they should do their job and go get these criminals instead of expecting Durov to censor the 99.9% of people doing nothing wrong. You silence them at one platform they’ll just go to another. Only way to stop them is to do something about them.

But when he thwarts law enforcement trying to gather information on child pornography and trafficking using the excuse that the warrants are not valid since the data and servers are now in a different country, independent of where the suspected users live, or where the crimes were committed. He’s an accessory and criminal and deserves to be in prison.

It’s important to note that other social media providers (Including TikTok BTW) Do not behave this way.

 

[Chungry]

Is it effective though? Criminals adapt, see the failed war on drugs in the US.

Isn’t it likely they’ll just explore other avenues?

The United States is one of the biggest drug trafficking companies in the world. When they aren’t arming both sides of international conflict and destabilizing their enemies.

 

[Chuckeee]

Even if they plan a crime, that should not be the problem of the platform. Imagine that happened offline. Criminals meet in a hotel and plan a crime there. It is not the job of the hotel to listen while they are talking.

But if the hotel manager barricades the entrances and prevents law enforcement from coming in and arresting the criminals. And then assist the criminals by transporting evidence to a different country cannot be accessed. Guess what, that hotel manager is a criminal himself and deserves to be in jail.

 

[Tomasulu]

This has to do with Russia/ukraine and nothing else.

 

[Chuckeee]

Refusal to communicate, at the request of competent authorities, information or documents necessary for carrying out and operating interceptions allowed by law,

From the list, I find this to be a (if not the) key allocation. This is Telegram ignoring legally issued warrants. This is not an “moderation” issue. This is more than throwing up your hands and saying, “I know nothing”. This is taking an active role trying to hide and protect criminal activity. And this was NOT a one time single occurrence.