TenFourFox 38 builds…get ready!

mzs.112000 said:
What sites do you use that need flash? On some sites, if you change your user agent to look like an iPad then you can get a mobile site that does not use flash, and even for sites that don't use flash, it can still offer a performance boost. In fact I think that in a few years, if our PowerPC's are still working, then mobile user agent will be the only way to get them online at all.
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PPC Macs are really benefiting from the switch from Flash to HTML5. Flash is dying, and HTML5 will be the new standard for web browsing. The only issue here is that as HTML5 becomes more advanced, the (now) low specs of the PPC era Macs (e.g. 2.0 GHz DC, 2 GB RAM) are sadly a bit underpowered for today's world. I would love to see HTML become the new Flash. Hopefully, TFF is supported for a few more years, so that us PPC users have at least something to work with.
 
mzs.112000 said:
What sites do you use that need flash?
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BBC News, Soundcloud & Bandcamp are the main ones. I've tried switching user agent but had no success there.

I really want to support TFF but for my uses, Webkit is way ahead as an all round browser - on my G5 certainly. The speed drop of TFF is less noticed on my Powerbooks and I love the full screen browsing it offers on them.
 
I downloaded the new build a few days ago. Speed wise it seemed quicker than the previous version, but in my experience Safari 4.1.3 beats both builds in speed and usability. My iMac is decked out with 2GB of RAM and a 120GB SSD so it's not exactly a low end G4 either.
 
I don't find HTML5 sites demanding on PowerPC unless the ownership/management jams 1-3 HTML5 video ads on the side which grind any computer to its knees like Flash typically does. As far as YouTube, their HTML5 playback defaults to 480p and uses either MP4(H.264)/WebM video format depending upon the year of the video(pre-H.264/2006 HTML5 testing period it'll only be FLV & WebM only).
 
happyfrappy said:
I don't find HTML5 sites demanding on PowerPC unless the ownership/management jams 1-3 HTML5 video ads on the side which grind any computer to its knees like Flash typically does. As far as YouTube, their HTML5 playback defaults to 480p and uses either MP4(H.264)/WebM video format depending upon the year of the video(pre-H.264/2006 HTML5 testing period it'll only be FLV & WebM only).
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When I do a quick test, I always use the same youtube clip, as it's fuzzy, low res 1977 footage and 360p:


On my G5, with Webkit and Clicktoplugin, if I choose Flash, it plays smoothly and the CPUs average load is 30 to 35%.
With TFF, the same video (play at 360p) will stutter for a half a minute, fans kick in & CPUs rise to 80% before settling down to 50 to 55%. At the same time, one advert has loaded but is static not animated.

Can you give me an example site where HTML5 has better performance and what machine you're viewing from?
I never discount the fact that it might just be my setup - all these machines seem to respond differently.
 
That video example seems to have a variable bit rate, 360p & 480p drops frames on my 13" 2010 MBP & i5 2520m+Intel IGP(PC) so I'm leaning towards Google/YouTube encoding did something strange for non-flash playback. Sometimes its just easier to play then quickly pause and let it buffer it completely. I use a script blocker(NoScript) so maybe it prevents the in-video ad boxes that lag PPC.

I don't doubt your experience, if you use "DownloadThemAll" addon you can see what videos are encoded via the file type(s) downloading. Tricky part with YouTube is Google decided to convert some videos during their early HTML5 period to WebM before shifting to MP4, its a crapshot of what playback format YouTube might throw at your browser or the bitrates used. For example Sleater-Kinney "Entertain" uses a higher encoder rate 9yrs ago yet "Jumpers" is less so it plays smoother since it was capped at 24-28 FPS. If you remember that YouTube conspiracy theory of number station type account uploading coloured boxes/shapes with noise, it came out Google used that account to measure video quality/bitrates.

I have a wimpy 12" PowerBook G4 at my desk, these videos seem to work without lagging/choppy on TFF:
-runs smoothly but it was originally recorded in SD(Digital 8).
(2015 example--playable at 480p on PPC, seems like Google started using progressive encoding, 981 kbps)

High bitrates which result in very choppy playback(868-1264 average kbps):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB6LS5ViyIM
 
happyfrappy said:
I have a wimpy 12" PowerBook G4 at my desk, these videos seem to work without lagging/choppy on TFF:
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Thanks for those clips. Same result on my G5 however, a quick fan rush/CPU spike then settles around the 50% mark - I'll try on the Powerbooks later to see how they manage - maybe TFF is more optimised for G4?
The ads do have impact as you say - I've used script blockers before but it's yet another layer to tackle handling permissions etc.
I've tried various youtube downloaders with TFF which mostly work but nothing gives my the overall control and efficiency that Webkit/Clicktoplugin does.
Good to hear music I've never heard before too (apart from Sleater-Kinney) :)
You might like Rose Elinor Dougall, similar(ish) to Sky Larkin:

 
Can I ask exactly what is going to change with build 38? What are the differences versus earlier builds?
 
CYB3RBYTE said:
Can I ask exactly what is going to change with build 38? What are the differences versus earlier builds?
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Cameron had to build an entirely new Javscript engine. The changes Mozilla made from 31 to 38 meant that the old engine(s) were either broken or turned T4Fx into a CPU heavy slug.

Based on his word choices over the course of development this is probably the last version of T4FX that keeps pace with Mozilla.

The UI is also more consistent with what you'd find in Firefox.
 
Dronecatcher said:
Thanks for those clips. Same result on my G5 however, a quick fan rush/CPU spike then settles around the 50% mark - I'll try on the Powerbooks later to see how they manage - maybe TFF is more optimised for G4?
The ads do have impact as you say - I've used script blockers before but it's yet another layer to tackle handling permissions etc.
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50% processor usage is still reasonable(Core 2 Duos average near that on YouTube), depending upon some videos which had a higher bitrate my 12" 1.33Ghz G4 hit 60-65% sustained but if I didn't use a script blocker it would be a lagfest or cooking an egg on the underside. My install of OS X was Panther(restore discs) upgraded to Tiger without any 3rd party menu bar addons and all the Dashboard Widgets closed. Memory wise I have 1GB of RAM free, since my 15" G4 is in storage I doubt the performance is any different(1.25Ghz).

NoScript isn't too hard to setup for YouTube usage, just allow YouTube only domains/preview image handling and don't whitelist anything Google--this will break your ability to be logged in with a Google account but on PPC this loss isn't too bad as you can switch back to "allow scripting globally" at any point. Using NoScript processor usage is like a night & day difference, on the minimum you should see a 10-15% speed boost.
 
happyfrappy said:
50% processor usage is still reasonable
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Yes, 50% is reasonable but 35% is even better.

I think it must be said that some Macs are more equal than others :) I too have a 1.33 12" Powerbook running Tiger with no Dashboard etc - these were my results on the Sky Larkin video, allowing it to load before playing:

98 - 100% CPU
With No Script set to block everything apart from playback: 93 - 100% CPU

I tried with and without the custom prefs file and results the same.

In all other respects the 1.33 is no slouch and it plays HD video better than my 1.25 Powerbook which has a more capable GPU.

Ah well...such are the mysteries of Ye Olde Powermacs....
 
Noticed YouTube updated their HTML5 video player, dropped frames are much less on TFF. Also on my past post later found out my ISP is still throttling the crap out of YouTube at peak hours skewing some of my 480p results, selecting specific video rates the stream would drop back without any notice on the HTML5 player. Maybe this is an American thing, Network Neutrality still didn't stop this "throttling" hell.
 
Earlier in this thread I mentioned that one of my issues with 38 is that everything in Preferences was unclickable for me.

Finally decided tonight to start looking at this. Turns out if was my theme. I use FTDeep Dark. But that's a them for Windows/Linux so I usually force a Linux install when I have to update.

Disabling the theme fixed the problem. So, now I am back to an old standby, NASA Nightlaunch.

Thought I'd bring this up if anyone has the same issue.
 
Another update! I didn't see any speed bump in javascript, but maybe it shows up more with multiple processors. I'll have to try it on my dual G4 cube when I get home next week.

Thanks again Cameron!
 
So far Beta 2 feels a lot more stable and even a little snappier. Hasn't crashed on me yet.
 
My iBook G3 700MHz is almost tolerable with TFF and Tiger, but my iMac G3 333MHz is just a joke even with iCab or Safari under Panther. IMO, G3's are never going to be by and large comfortable browsing devices. So I would not mind dropping support for G3s. However, I think all G4's and G5's should be supported as long as possible. It may be safe to say that the day TFF stops supporting PPC, is the day our PPC devices stop being daily driver capable, and move permanently into the realm of collectables.
 
Version 38 is likely to be the last comparable build. Kaiser killed himself getting to 38 and I'm not sure he's willing to invest the time and resources it may take to advance.

I've been wrong before and I'm probably wrong now but I see us as dropping to feature parity only for the next ESR. T4FX has been great and has kept a lot of us relevant in the browser world, but there is a point and I think we are quite close to it. If not the next ESR, probably the one after that.

That said, browsing is not the main purpose of any of my Macs, although I do it the most. Losing browsing on my PowerPC Macs will not in any way affect the other purposes I use them for. So, even when this happens I don't believe my Macs will be packed off to a museum right away.
 
eyoungren said:
Version 38 is likely to be the last comparable build. Kaiser killed himself getting to 38 and I'm not sure he's willing to invest the time and resources it may take to advance.

I've been wrong before and I'm probably wrong now but I see us as dropping to feature parity only for the next ESR. T4FX has been great and has kept a lot of us relevant in the browser world, but there is a point and I think we are quite close to it. If not the next ESR, probably the one after that.
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It's highly probable that future Firefox versions will require Electrolysis (e10s or multiprocess Firefox) to build, which is a no-go at the moment for TenFourFox from what I've read.
 
val1984 said:
It's highly probable that future Firefox versions will require Electrolysis (e10s or multiprocess Firefox) to build, which is a no-go at the moment for TenFourFox from what I've read.
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Right. And unless there is some movement on Mozilla's part it's not going to happen.
 
I want to comment on that video card performance list that was posted earlier in this thread.

Some of its listings are dead wrong. It shows a 7800gt and x850xt being equal. On a powerpc mac, that isnt even close to what its like, the agp x850xt kills the pcie 7800gt in OSX Leopard.

I have the 7800gt, x850xt, and Quadro fx4500 (which is basically 7800gtx) for my G5 dual 2.7 and G5 Quad.

The Quadro is hugely faster than the 7800gt in OpenGL performance, and the x850xt beats the Quadro every time.

I suppose he was comparing those cards in windows using Directx, which could have very different performance curves than the OpenGL that OSX uses. Those of you using that list to compare anything, be sure to take as more guesstimate than fact.

For accurate OpenGL measurements on powerpc macs, look to our OpenMark benchmark thread here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/some-ppc-openmark-benchmarks.1848060/
 
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