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There was no reason it couldn't run on the A12X and A12Z. The 12Z was the chip developers used to create the first Apple Silicon apps. It's not all that different from the M1.
The developer kit included 16 GB of RAM whereas the A12X/Z had either 4 or 6 GB of RAM, that’s the big difference and ultimately why running 8 apps in extended display mode is not going to happen. The M1 also has much more robust I/O for SSD speeds; the M1 iPad SSD is several times faster than the 2018/2020 iPP allowing for faster VM speeds.

This in no way means Apple shouldn’t have offered the feature scaled down for older iPad Pros. If anything it means Apple paired powerful tablet CPUs with too little RAM for far too long and it came back to bite them.
 
You're saying Apple had very specific hardware in 2006 to do a different version of the same UI stuff they've been doing for years. Somehow StageManager/Shrinkydink needed a different set of hardware than Expose, Mission Control, App Switcher, etc? Not a chance. It's moving windows around. The same stuff they've been doing for eternity. There's no way an ancient desktop chip has something magical for moving windows that Apple's A chips don't.
Never heard of Shrinkydink but all of the things you're talking about are desktop computer processors that run desktop OS'es. The A-series was not designed to be a desktop processor but to run iPhones and older iPads, so they left out all the stuff iOS didn't need. Why would you waste millions of transistors on valuable die space for a feature you never plan to use? Nobody puts stuff on a chip they don't plan to use because it's too expensive and pointless. The reason I think it was virtual memory is because desktop OS'es have supported that for decades, but iPhones have never had it, and therefore Apple never bothered to put in controllers for that on the A-series chips.

It's not like Intel or AMD or Qualcomm, either, who have to make generic processors for a wide audience. Apple's hardware team makes their chips for one customer and the requirements are exact. Support feature A, B, and C for iOS, but we don't need D or E because iOS doesn't need them. So Apple engineers put in circuitry into their SoC's for A, B, and C. But D is needed on a desktop processor, so the M1 was born, which has all the circuitry a desktop needs. Hence why the initial requirements were M1-only. Now Apple figured out a way to make Stage Manager work using circuitry already on the A12X/Z chips that don't have the required controllers. It won't work as well, but it still works "acceptably". If I were to guess, they were experimenting with various algorithms that used the main cores rather than an actual virtual memory controller. The main cores are general purpose where the phrase, "jack of all trades, master of none" can be applied.

Put it this way. Have you ever mined crypto? Less common crypto currency can be mined on a graphics card. But not all of them can, such as bitcoin and dogecoin, though they used to be when difficulty was low. Originally bitcoin could be mined on a cheap CPU. Their difficulty level has gotten so high, CPU's and GPU's are now useless. They could run the algorithm but it would take decades to mine a single coin. Mining those coins requires ASICs (application-specific integrated circuits), special chips designed for one purpose and one purpose only. They can't do much of anything else but for that one task, they are super optimized to do it. A controller is the same thing. A memory controller, for instance, is designed to move things in and out of memory. The design is specific for that task. You can't use the memory controller to calculate PI to the 5 billionth digit. That's what the general purpose cores are for or special math co-processors that some computers had in years past. Whatever it is that was present on the M1 but not on the A12Z required Apple to find an alternative that could help run SM in an acceptable manner that wasn't complete dog s**t. General purpose cores are designed to do all sorts of things, but none of them as good as a dedicated ASIC.

As I said, if the circuitry wasn't required on the A12X/Z for iOS, Apple didn't include it. Apparently whatever was needed for SM wasn't included on those chips, so they had to find a workaround. It didn't matter if windows have been movable for thrity years. For one thing, you're assuming it had to do with windows, when it's more likely something that allows them to run four apps simultaneously. For SM, they need all four to be awake. That's why i think it had to do with virtual memory. I could be wrong, but that's an educated guess as a programmer. The M1 has all the stuff a desktop OS needs, so it can run 8 apps simultaneously and easily. Apparently this workaround has its own limitations.
 
I don't get it, isn't the m1 chip just the next iteration of the ax chips?
No, it's a chip designed to run a desktop OS while the A-series are chips designed to run a mobile OS, which has different characteristics. The general purpose cores are the same on each, but the specialized circuitry are vastly different. People seem to think the general purpose cores are all there is on an SoC. In their presentations, Apple even points out different areas of the chip that specialize in different things. There are things a desktop OS needs and there are things a mobile OS needs and they don't always coincide. The M1 is not the same as the A14 even though they share a lot of the same circuitry.
 
As I said, if the circuitry wasn't required on the A12X/Z for iOS, Apple didn't include it. Apparently whatever was needed for SM wasn't included on those chips, so they had to find a workaround. It didn't matter if windows have been movable for thrity years. For one thing, you're assuming it had to do with windows, when it's more likely something that allows them to run four apps simultaneously. For SM, they need all four to be awake. That's why i think it had to do with virtual memory. I could be wrong, but that's an educated guess as a programmer. The M1 has all the stuff a desktop OS needs, so it can run 8 apps simultaneously and easily. Apparently this workaround has its own limitations.
I have my doubts. Considering it is in the 16.1 beta, they surely had it running on the 2018/2020 machines when they said it was M1 only. Maybe at the time they didn’t think it was acceptable, but later optimization fixed that, or maybe they were focused on the M1 capability and didn’t adequately test it in time for the 16.0 release. I don’t know.

The 2018/2020 iPad Pros are not as powerful as the M1, but it is powerful enough. I have a 2018 iPP that I’ve been using more or less daily (and am in fact typing this message on it) for 3 years now and it has never really let me down in any way. On top of that, Apple also usually does not cut significant features out of 2 year old machines.

It also strains belief to think that Stage Manager is using some super new M1-only capabilities, considering we are talking about 2022 iOS and M1 came out in 2020. If Stage Manager was such an amazing feature only possible through the strength of M1, why wasn’t it on M1 iPads day one?
 
There was no reason it couldn't run on the A12X and A12Z. The 12Z was the chip developers used to create the first Apple Silicon apps. It's not all that different from the M1.
It was vastly different from the M1. Keep in mind the M1 is nearly double the size of the A12Z. All those extra transistors were needed to make a desktop OS run smoothly. Note that A12Z version never shipped because it was a cobbled together collection of parts that would never make it to the shipping version. The A12Z was missing a ton of features the M1 had, so Apple had to get a bunch of co-processors to help it work, and it still ran like garbage.
 
Apple isn't going to cannibalize their Mac sales putting macOS on the iPad. That's not going to happen.

But that doesn't mean that they cannot borrow macOS concepts into iOS/iPadOS.

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Have proper window management like the Mac has.
Why wouldn't they? iPad Pros with keyboard are more expensive than Macbooks, so I think Apple would love to cannibalize their Mac sales.
 
...

As I said, if the circuitry wasn't required on the A12X/Z for iOS, Apple didn't include it. Apparently whatever was needed for SM wasn't included on those chips, so they had to find a workaround. It didn't matter if windows have been movable for thrity years. For one thing, you're assuming it had to do with windows, when it's more likely something that allows them to run four apps simultaneously. For SM, they need all four to be awake. That's why i think it had to do with virtual memory. I could be wrong, but that's an educated guess as a programmer. The M1 has all the stuff a desktop OS needs, so it can run 8 apps simultaneously and easily. Apparently this workaround has its own limitations.
Then Apple has no idea how to program for their own stuff, because Jailbroken devices were doing slick-looking multitasking things akin to Stage Manager over a decade ago.

There's no way the processors can't do it. None.
 
I have my doubts. Considering it is in the 16.1 beta, they surely had it running on the 2018/2020 machines when they said it was M1 only. Maybe at the time they didn’t think it was acceptable, but later optimization fixed that, or maybe they were focused on the M1 capability and didn’t adequately test it in time for the 16.0 release. I don’t know.

The 2018/2020 iPad Pros are not as powerful as the M1, but it is powerful enough. I have a 2018 iPP that I’ve been using more or less daily (and am in fact typing this message on it) for 3 years now and it has never really let me down in any way. On top of that, Apple also usually does not cut significant features out of 2 year old machines.

It also strains belief to think that Stage Manager is using some super new M1-only capabilities, considering we are talking about 2022 iOS and M1 came out in 2020. If Stage Manager was such an amazing feature only possible through the strength of M1, why wasn’t it on M1 iPads day one?
They said back when SM was first introduced that they ran it on all sorts of iPads but didn't think it performed well enough to ship.

Why does it strain belief that desktop processors are not the same as mobile processors? Keep in mind the M1 has a far bigger transistor count than the A14. If the A-series were the same, Apple wasted a ton of money on adding transistors it doesn't need. I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to grasp that mobile OS'es have different characteristics and requirements from desktop OS'es. The M1 was designed from the ground up to be a desktop processor. The A12's were not. Just as I don't expect A-series to run macOS very well, I wouldn't expect Qualcomm's Snapdragon to run a desktop OS, which is why Qualcomm created a different SoC for Microsoft.
 
Guys, How about actual “reviews” of how is it working as a beta for now?.
It runs okay. Task manager scrolling is choppy and janky. Using CMD-Tab when switching apps you can tell that they are lower res thumbnails for a second before the actual window renders in retina resolution. Tapping an icon pair on the sidebar and trying to add it to a workspace with a Safari window just now caused it to crash and reload stage manager.
 
They said back when SM was first introduced that they ran it on all sorts of iPads but didn't think it performed well enough to ship.

Why does it strain belief that desktop processors are not the same as mobile processors? Keep in mind the M1 has a far bigger transistor count than the A14. If the A-series were the same, Apple wasted a ton of money on adding transistors it doesn't need. I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to grasp that mobile OS'es have different characteristics and requirements from desktop OS'es. The M1 was designed from the ground up to be a desktop processor. The A12's were not. Just as I don't expect A-series to run macOS very well, I wouldn't expect Qualcomm's Snapdragon to run a desktop OS, which is why Qualcomm created a different SoC for Microsoft.
I didn’t say that the chips were the same. I said it strains belief that a window manager requires some brand new desktop-class processor. Indeed, now Apple agrees. And while the iPad has indeed been running iOS since the beginning, it’s also an operating system that has been picking up features from the desktop for quite a while. Even before iPadOS was explicitly forked and renamed, it was diverging from the iPhone version. So it stands to reason that Apple has been building the A-class processors to do more than just a stereotypical “mobile OS” for a long time.
 
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I have a 2020 iPad Pro and an Apple Studio display. I fantasize of having full stage manager support if Apple can somehow use the processor built into the Studio display to assist with the two monitor experience. But I know this is a fantasy, 99% certain the answer is “not gonna happen”.
 
I mean. We have to consider limitations. While iPadOS is based on the OSX codebase, all UI stuff had to be rewritten, with old ass hardware in mind. They weren't considering there would be a tablet running multiple windows at the same time when they coded iPhoneOS in 2005 (or earlier lol), and Stage Manager is most likely a botched implementation of forced scaling on iPadOS apps since the code was never made to do so.

Either way... they could've just taken the macOS window code and paste it on iPadOS... but they like doing the reverse of that.
 
I want this on my iPad Mini 6th gen! Even if it is fewer windows, I wouldn't mind! A15 is more than powerful enough to run it smoothly.
 
They’re only bringing it to older models because they got caught trying to limit a 2006 idea to their most powerful SOC claiming “hardware limitation.” It’s blatantly obvious if you’re not an apologist fanboy.

Nah, you're way too overconfident on this. Stage Manager with 8 apps going at once probably isn't great on anything older than the M1 because the iPad SoCs before the M1 didn't have enough RAM and the storage wasn't good enough for the memory swap required to make it all work fast enough for the responsiveness of what you expect from an iPad.

The thing Apple did wrong was sell the iPad "Pro" with a tiny amount of RAM and gimped storage at pro prices. They were greedy selling limited hardware at pro level prices, rather than lying about Stage Manager.
 
No, it's a chip designed to run a desktop OS while the A-series are chips designed to run a mobile OS, which has different characteristics. The general purpose cores are the same on each, but the specialized circuitry are vastly different. People seem to think the general purpose cores are all there is on an SoC. In their presentations, Apple even points out different areas of the chip that specialize in different things. There are things a desktop OS needs and there are things a mobile OS needs and they don't always coincide. The M1 is not the same as the A14 even though they share a lot of the same circuitry.
If 3rd party developers can write complex 3D games for an A14 iPad Pro, I'm pretty sure Apple themselves can write and create a pretty looking 3D pseudo-desktop.
 
Nah, you're way too overconfident on this. Stage Manager with 8 apps going at once probably isn't great on anything older than the M1 because the iPad SoCs before the M1 didn't have enough RAM and the storage wasn't good enough for the memory swap required to make it all work fast enough for the responsiveness of what you expect from an iPad.

The thing Apple did wrong was sell the iPad "Pro" with a tiny amount of RAM and gimped storage at pro prices. They were greedy selling limited hardware at pro level prices, rather than lying about Stage Manager.
That's valid, and an angle I hadn't considered.
 
I used the beta of macOS years ago in 2006 that had stage manager and it worked with an external display. An iPad Pro from 2018 is faster than the MacBook in 2006 I had running it with. So yes, @eicca is correct.

I think that A-series chips are not designed for efficient memory virtualization (including swapping pages to ssd) due to iOS/iPadOS multitasking model not using that. M1 chip supports full virtualization and that is brought to iPadOS 16 as well.

Based on that, Stage Manager challenges on pre-M1 chips may be related to memory virtualization: either SSD swapping speed or hard limitations in memory virtualization built into the CPU.

With extremely limited amount of memory, keeping everything running smoothly would be very challenging if virtualization would not work fast. Especially when the small amount of RAM is shared by per app frame buffers, actual display memory for both displays, RAM allocated for the apps themselves and the OS.
 
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There was no reason it couldn't run on the A12X and A12Z. The 12Z was the chip developers used to create the first Apple Silicon apps. It's not all that different from the M1.

That A12Z in the Mac test kit came with 16GB of RAM and a normal Mac SSD, compared to the 4GB of RAM and whatever SSD came in the in the A12z iPad Pro. That's the difference.
 
That's valid, and an angle I hadn't considered.

Thanks for considering it. It's been a strange conversation to watch unfold since it was announced, because while I think Apple is correct that Stage Manager wouldn't run well on a 2018 iPad Pro, the general sense that pretty much everyone is feeling of "it's ridiculous that this doesn't work on an iPad Pro from 2018" is correct! We all know intuitively that for the prices people paid for the 2018 iPad Pro, its SoC shouldn't have been so lacking in the RAM and storage.

So you've got people saying that Apple has done nothing wrong at all, which isn't quite right, and then people who are adamant Apple is just lying, which also isn't quite right.

Interesting anyway!
 
Stage Manager is 2006 technology. It'll run on anything if they allow it. But, gotta sell new iPads.

Second opinion: If an ancient Intel processor can multitask better than every iPad currently on the market, that pretty much guarantees that Stage Manager "limitations" are just product-pushing tactics.


Stage manager is essentially not much different functionality wise than what we had in the earliest versions of Mac OS. I'm talking 1980s technology running on Motorola 68k. I 100% agree with your assessment that this is all about selling new iPads. (I understand your reference to stage manager being in the 2006 macos beta, but my point here is that it is essentially providing multiple processes' UI windows on the screen at one time.. something that has been in MacOS since forever)

I'm glad that there is finally enough uproar to make Apple think twice, though I wish Apple would also bring this feature to A14 based iPads. While on paper the A12Z has some additional cores, we've seen in geekbench results that the A14 is pretty much on par or better performing than the A12Z.
 
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I’m glad that they enabled it so I could at least try it out on my 2020 12.9” because i was wondering if it would even be useful. I enabled it and tried a few apps but I don’t think it’s better than the split screen view with slide over for a third app. Maybe if I could output to a monitor I’d have a different opinion but I don’t really see a case for leaving it on. Seems kinda lame.
 
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