Testing Stage Manager on a 2018 iPad Pro With the New iPadOS 16.1 Beta

[jonblatho]

I tested it out on my 2018 11” iPad Pro this evening. Thought Stage Manager on iPad was meh when it was unveiled in June and, having now used it, still think it’s meh.

A Fisher-Price windowing system just isn’t the fundamental change the iPad needs to be interesting as a computer again. The most interesting thing about Stage Manager to me is that it’s a UX that Apple sat on for 15 years. Probably because it doesn’t move the needle.

 

[bettaboy123]

I’ll have to give it a try on my 2020 iPad Pro. I’m not really sold on the concept tbh, I feel like the current multitasking options actually work really well. I often use the Split Screen and Slideover but I don’t know what I would use this for. I’m still waiting on them to finish Freeform.

 

[Apples Apples Everywhere]

Is "Stage Manager" a gimmick? Or at least a dumb marketing term? Isn't a multi tasking GUI a solved problem already? I'll give Stage Manager a try but when I really want to perform real work from an iPad, I connect with RDP to a Windows computer, which is sad.

 

[jonblatho]

Is "Stage Manager" a gimmick? Or at least a dumb marketing term? Isn't a multi tasking GUI a solved problem already? I'll give Stage Manager a try but when I really want to perform real work from an iPad, I connect with RDP to a Windows computer, which is sad.

It always struck me as wheel reinvention absent a good cause.

 

[dooyou]

What about the latest iPad Mini? It is way faster than a old iPad Pro.

 

[SeenJeen]

Craig, how do you feel now after spending that much time making up the lies so Tim can upsell people to buy new ipads?

 

[ratspg]

I think that A-series chips are not designed for efficient memory virtualization (including swapping pages to ssd) due to iOS/iPadOS multitasking model not using that. M1 chip supports full virtualization and that is brought to iPadOS 16 as well.

Based on that, Stage Manager challenges on pre-M1 chips may be related to memory virtualization: either SSD swapping speed or hard limitations in memory virtualization built into the CPU.

With extremely limited amount of memory, keeping everything running smoothly would be very challenging if virtualization would not work fast. Especially when the small amount of RAM is shared by per app frame buffers, actual display memory for both displays, RAM allocated for the apps themselves and the OS.

I ran what Apple calls StageManager today on a macOS beta in 2006. It worked smoothly and fine on that old laptop. iOS is heavily more optimized than Mac OS X from 2006 and the specs on those laptops were terrible compared to an iPad Pro from 2018.

My MacBook at the time had intel gma 950 graphics and had 2gb of ddr2 ram. I believe the intel core 2 duo cpu was 1.8ghz as well.

The iPad Pro 2018 has an A12X Bionic 4x 2.5ghz octa-core and 4x 1.6ghz tempest. Also 4GB lpddr4x ram.

Here is a comparison of the A12X to the Intel Core 2 Duo from 2008 in a midrange laptop. That Intel chip compared was 2 years newer (2008) than the Core 2 Duo in the MacBook I had (which worked fine with an external display and the Stage Manager feature.)

Apple is artificially limiting the ability on iOS 16 and their products. Business-wise I get why they do it, they want to sell more iPads and future devices, completely understood. But I just want to be clear, the hardware from 2018+ can run the feature just fine.

Apple A12X Bionic vs Intel Core 2 Duo T8100 - GadgetVersus

Comparison between Apple A12X Bionic and Intel Core 2 Duo T8100 with the specifications of the processors, the number of cores, threads, cache memory, also the performance in benchmark platforms such as Geekbench, Passmark, Cinebench or AnTuTu.

gadgetversus.com

 

[ratspg]

Is "Stage Manager" a gimmick? Or at least a dumb marketing term? Isn't a multi tasking GUI a solved problem already? I'll give Stage Manager a try but when I really want to perform real work from an iPad, I connect with RDP to a Windows computer, which is sad.

It’s just Apple rehashing an old idea they tried in the past and never released. I didn’t like it back then (it was a tiny bit better though) and on macOS Ventura I’ve tried it out and it’s not an improvement for me based on how I use my laptop.

 

[Monsieur Arykovère]

Apple isn't going to cannibalize their Mac sales putting macOS on the iPad. That's not going to happen.

But that doesn't mean that they cannot borrow macOS concepts into iOS/iPadOS.

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Have proper window management like the Mac has.

I agree that they won’t put macOS on the iPads, which is a shame.

I normally have a $1k MacBook Air and a ~$800 iPad. I would easily pay over $2k for a dual booting iPad with a keyboard so I don’t have to lug around two devices. I walk to work and travel a lot, so the bulk of having two devices is too much.

 

[ratspg]

I agree that they won’t put macOS on the iPads, which is a shame.

I normally have a $1k MacBook Air and a ~$800 iPad. I would easily pay over $2k for a dual booting iPad with a keyboard so I don’t have to lug around two devices. I walk to work and travel a lot, so the bulk of having two devices is too much.

It would be nice! I have all the devices and appreciate them for what they are. I think we’ll see the convergence of macOS and iOS in the next few years.

 

[tobybrut]

If 3rd party developers can write complex 3D games for an A14 iPad Pro, I'm pretty sure Apple themselves can write and create a pretty looking 3D pseudo-desktop.

Complex games use Metal, which is a combination of dedicated hardware and software to speed up games. What Metal does is similar to what DirectX does on Windows. Without the direct access to hardware that is the job of Metal, games would run agonizingly slow. You're talking apples and oranges. What it takes to keep multiple apps open simultaneously while keeping all of them responsive with limited RAM and 5-times slower flash is a lot different than speeding up one game that has access to dedicated GPU cores that are designed for those games.

I wish people would stop saying, "hey the iPad can do this really well, so obviously it can do something completely different really well, too, because duh." That's like saying a professional baseball player would do really well at professional rugby because they can play baseball really well.

 

[Wildkraut]

That's quite an allegation. Of course you have proof to substantiate that, right?

Ist not the first time Apple did this, no proof is needed - just logical thinking.

I go farer and say, they removed the external display support all together, because otherwise people would see it also works with iPad Pro 2018 and 2020 models, maybe just not well at 4k.

So yes it’s clearly a made-up limitation to boost the M1 iPad sales.

Anyway, the proof is Apples history, and emails that came up during the epic trial which shows how they tick.

 

[iPadified]

Apple: it should be up to the end user if they are happy with the performance of stage manager with external support on 2018/2020 iPP. You deciding that the end user will be unhappy is just arrogant. The stage manager marketing is just poorly executed and create far too much bad will.

No Apple, we are not going to upgrade our iPads every three years.

 

[Wildkraut]

Apple: it should be up to the end user if they are happy with the performance of stage manager with external support on 2018/2020 iPP. You deciding that the end user will be unhappy is just arrogant. The stage manager marketing is just poorly executed and create far too much bad will.

No Apple, we are not going to upgrade our iPads every three years.

I remember Craig saying, customers should buy a new Apple computer max every 5 years or so.

 

[teh_hunterer]

I ran what Apple calls StageManager today on a macOS beta in 2006. It worked smoothly and fine on that old laptop. iOS is heavily more optimized than Mac OS X from 2006 and the specs on those laptops were terrible compared to an iPad Pro from 2018.

My MacBook at the time had intel gma 950 graphics and had 2gb of ddr2 ram. I believe the intel core 2 duo cpu was 1.8ghz as well.

The iPad Pro 2018 has an A12X Bionic 4x 2.5ghz octa-core and 4x 1.6ghz tempest. Also 4GB lpddr4x ram.

Here is a comparison of the A12X to the Intel Core 2 Duo from 2008 in a midrange laptop. That Intel chip compared was 2 years newer (2008) than the Core 2 Duo in the MacBook I had (which worked fine with an external display and the Stage Manager feature.)

Apple is artificially limiting the ability on iOS 16 and their products. Business-wise I get why they do it, they want to sell more iPads and future devices, completely understood. But I just want to be clear, the hardware from 2018+ can run the feature just fine.

Apple A12X Bionic vs Intel Core 2 Duo T8100 - GadgetVersus

Comparison between Apple A12X Bionic and Intel Core 2 Duo T8100 with the specifications of the processors, the number of cores, threads, cache memory, also the performance in benchmark platforms such as Geekbench, Passmark, Cinebench or AnTuTu.

gadgetversus.com

The issue on the iPad Pro 2018 is the low RAM (4GB) and storage that can't do the memory swap needed for 8 apps to run smoothly side by side. And when the RAM is so low, more and more memory swap is required, which thrashes the already inadequate storage.

What Apple has done wrong is sell the iPad Pro at pro prices in 2018 with such crappy RAM and storage, when they probably knew they'd be releasing a feature like this in a few years. It was greedy. But they're not lying about Stage Manager.

You can't compare RAM requirements to software from 2008. And you can't tell me that the computer from 2006 or 2008 could run 8 modern iPad apps side by side with the same speed and responsiveness that users expect from an iPad in 2022.

 

[ratspg]

I remember Craig saying, customers should buy a new Apple computer max every 5 years or so.

Hah wow. Makes sense. They have increased the speed of making Macs “vintage” lately.

I remember when Apple was the underdog years ago and releasing new versions of Mac OS X and features endlessly right away and on every device with way less restrictions to steal market share from Microsoft. Those days are clearly over. 😂

 

[MayaUser]

Uh, the fact that Stage Manager existed in 2006. They called it Shrinkydink. Look it up.

please let us know where you get for iOS platform in 2006 stage manager or Shrinkydink that also works well in that high ppi resolution with so less Ram on the system
Its clear you dont know how all this work...probably you are not a developer.

 

[ratspg]

please let us know where you get for iOS platform in 2006 stage manager or Shrinkydink that also works well in that high ppi resolution
Its clear you dont know how all this work...probably you are not a developer. In 2006 you cannot have stage mananger on devices with less than 4gb of ram on high ppi density displays

You could run it on an external 1080p display. But artificially they will tell you that you can’t. They also said Stage Manager required an M1, it didn’t. Apple just wants to sell more hardware.

 

[_Spinn_]

how come iPhones can't do Stage Hero?

I'd love to be able to set my iPhone in a dock and use stage manager on an external display with a mouse and keyboard. It will never happen though.

 

[MayaUser]

You could run it on an external 1080p display. But artificially they will tell you that you can’t.

in 2006 there was no iOS as far as i know...you are talking about macs or windows pc i guess and thats a whole new architecture for system on a chip with iGpu or dedicated gpu, no shared ram for gpu and so many other things that impact the UI and the background activity of this feature

 

[ratspg]

in 2006 there was no iOS as far as i know...you are talking about macs or windows pc i guess and thats a whole new architecture for system on a chip with iGpu or dedicated gpu, no shared ram for gpu and so many other things that impact the UI and the background activity of this feature

I linked to a comparison of an iPad Pro 2018 A12X and an intel core 2 duo. The A12X blows it out of the water. More memory , faster memory, more cores, more cache.

I’m happy they added Stage Manager to older iPad Pro’s. I still think the feature isn’t great, but at least people who want it can use it now.

 

[Chad-VI]

So an iPad Pro from 2018 on an A12 whatever chip is getting stage manager but not the iPad Air 4 from 2020 with an A14 chip? How’s that chip supposed to be more futureproof than its predecessors when they have already started excluded it from getting any major new features from the very first major OS update?

 

[ratspg]

So an iPad Pro from 2018 on an A12 whatever chip is getting stage manager but not the iPad Air 4 from 2020 with an A14 chip? How’s that chip supposed to be more futureproof than its predecessors when they have already started excluded it from getting any major new features from the very first major OS update?

“Pro” artificial limitation. Sucks when companies do it. They only stop doing it when the backlash from the customer base is severe. They could get the feature optimized and working on all modern iPads if they wanted to.

The A12X does have a couple more cores though and some more memory available to it.

 

[teh_hunterer]

So an iPad Pro from 2018 on an A12 whatever chip is getting stage manager but not the iPad Air 4 from 2020 with an A14 chip? How’s that chip supposed to be more futureproof than its predecessors when they have already started excluded it from getting any major new features from the very first major OS update?

I can't think of an explanation for that one. Seems weird to me. The only reason I can think of is the fact the Air 4 can come with storage as low as 64GB which wouldn't play nice with the amount of memory swap needed for it, and they thought it was too complicated to communicate to the customer that it's restricted on 64GB Airs while allowing 128GB+ Airs to run it.

You might say then why can the Air 5 run it when it also has a 64GB option? Possibly because it has double the amount of RAM to work with (8GB instead of 4GB), so won't have to dip into memory swap enough for it to be a problem.

It's messy, but could be that the combination of 4GB of RAM and 64GB of storage won't cut it :/

It always bothered me how little RAM the iPads came with. I always wanted the iPad to be more capable, and imagined like many others that they would just need to unlock its potential with software, however I could see how low the RAM was and how the storage lacked typical desktop features that would allow desktop style virtual memory to be used. I only ever saw it discussed a couple of times that the storage and RAM were a bit worryingly bad and would be an issue if Apple decided to give the iPad more desktop features...

That's why I finally pulled the trigger on an iPad Pro when the M1 came out, because while the CPU and GPU of the A12x, A12z, and A14 are fantastic, the M1 iPad Pro was the first iPad that had desktop class hardware across the board.

 

[Chad-VI]

I can't think of an explanation for that one. Seems weird to me. The only reason I can think of is the fact the Air 4 can come with storage as low as 64GB which wouldn't play nice with the amount of memory swap needed for it, and they thought it was too complicated to communicate to the customer that it's restricted on 64GB Airs while allowing 128GB+ Airs to run it.

You might say then why can the Air 5 run it when it also has a 64GB option? Possibly because it has double the amount of RAM to work with (8GB instead of 4GB), so won't have to dip into memory swap enough for it to be a problem.

It's messy, but could be that the combination of 4GB of RAM and 64GB of storage won't cut it :/

It always bothered me how little RAM the iPads came with. I always wanted the iPad to be more capable, and imagined like many others that they would just need to unlock its potential with software, however I could see how low the RAM was and how the storage lacked typical desktop features that would allow desktop style virtual memory to be used. I only ever saw it discussed a couple of times that the storage and RAM were a bit worryingly bad and would be an issue if Apple decided to give the iPad more desktop features...

That's why I finally pulled the trigger on an iPad Pro when the M1 came out, because while the CPU and GPU of the A12x, A12z, and A14 are fantastic, the M1 iPad Pro was the first iPad that had desktop class hardware across the board.

That’s a very well written potential explanation for this issue thank you. I never knew that memory swap was a thing for iOS. Although them reserving features for specific storage options wouldn’t be new for them (if I’m not mistaken some ProRes feature on the new iPhones is preserved only for the higher storage options?).

Like you said, one buys an iPad with so much unused power and potential in its chip, thinking it would be later unlocked and taken advantage of with software, but it seems that rather than that happening, they’re just abandoning those overpowered chips to do the same bare minimum as the 329$ iPad does. What a shame honestly.