The 2009 (Gainestown) Mac Pro: Everything We Know

[Tallest Skil]

For the record, I want to state that this thread cracks me up every time I see it in the topic list.

Shouldn't it be titled "Everything we think we know" or "everything we speculate"?

Nope.

There are a few things that we DO know for certain. The rest is just windfall.

 

[diamond.g]

System Profiler shows tethered. when I remove the SLI cable between the two 8800 gt's I get less graphics performance. I know that the sli cable makes the diff. I understand all the issues windows has. But my two 8800 gt's with SLI cable and Winders vista ultimate 64 games run better than they do on my other mac pro running a single 8800. I understand the info you gave me on the link about SLI 10.5.6. Thank you for your reply.

Screenshot of System Profiler showing that please

 

[philius]

Nope.

There are a few things that we DO know for certain. The rest is just windfall.

For all we know there may not even be another Mac Pro!!! Did Apple make an announcement yet???

 

[BenRoethig]

For all we know there may not even be another Mac Pro!!! Did Apple make an announcement yet???

Unfortunately, I find that a real possibility. Apple's target group is the average consumer now and the MacPro is really in the opposite direction of ive's design philosophy.

 

[Umbongo]

Unfortunately, I find that a real possibility. Apple's target group is the average consumer now and the MacPro is really in the opposite direction of ive's design philosophy.

Maybe opposite of his design philosophy, not of Apple's attitude to software, OSX and solutions.

 

[nanofrog]

Even the lower cards are more than enough for smooth viewport performance on complex models for many users. A lot of content creation is being done on the consumer cards too as autodesk and others move stuff to D3D. I think it is more of a 3D sound and having a pro card on the line up than offering "a solution" to CAD/CAM users.

CAD/CAM usage is how I see them. I'm not a graphics pro, but given the use of consumer cards in that field (from many posts on MR), I don't think this market is it's primary target.

Perhaps Open CL might change this.

Unfortunately, I find that a real possibility. Apple's target group is the average consumer now and the MacPro is really in the opposite direction of ive's design philosophy.

It would be foolish at this time, especially given the market/brand they've created for graphics professionals. After this one though, who knows.

 

[WATCHDOG]

Apple's target group is the average consumer now

+++

peddles many products and services; including Mac's.

As with all bu$inesses, etc., is (also) in bu$iness to make $!

As far as overall demand of 's Mac line, the high point on the bell curve has sequed toward the mobile for several reasons; not the least of which is the currently expanding world of Wi-Fi as well as the pros of portability.

Through subtle promotion such as e.g., movies, many potential customers - who do not possess supercomputing needs - wouldn't mind having their own 2009-affordable 'laptop' with a prominent logo on display, as they play or work in Starbucks and/or Wherever...

I'd be curious to see the "pie-chart" of all Mac computer purchases (in number of units sold) for '07 and/or '08?

What % of Mac computer purchasers purchased Mac Pro's when "times were better"?

What % of people Today would have purchased a new Mac Pro,
IF they were not so Depressed at the moment? (aka - Pro sales may plummet faster than lower price point sales)

POINT?

Because of the increasing availability of WiFi (and therefore the increasing consumer demand for "laptops" & "notebooks"), the producing & promoting of mobile computer systems (Lo-end, Hi-end) will probably increase.

And as for the Mac Pro?

There should be something 'special' out there - even if very pricey - which towers above all PC competition, if even partially just for the sake of keeping 's corporate 'image' well-polished!

However, with that said, I have it from the Highest Source (even higher than you, Skil), that, one day, even Mac Pro, shall be no more..



+++

 

[mchalebk]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Apple will give up the MacPro to concentrate on consumer machines is nuts (at least in the next several years). There is no way Apple would abandon the professional markets that it dominates (graphic arts, music, film,video). Regardless of how many they sell, Apple absolutely has to have a pro-level computer to support a very key segment of the market.

Remember, this isn't only about hardware, but software, too. If they killed the MacPro, it wouldn't be long before their pro apps died also (Final Cut, Logic, etc). Why would you need pro-level apps when there's no pro-level hardware to run them on?

You can take this to the bank: Apple will not kill the MacPro.

 

[Umbongo]

CAD/CAM usage is how I see them. I'm not a graphics pro, but given the use of consumer cards in that field (from many posts on MR), I don't think this market is it's primary target.

Perhaps Open CL might change this.

The issue with Apple and "pro" cards is that the pro cards are only really better because they have the optimized drivers, certification and support for applications and that most of those apps are not for OS X. And as already discussed the raw power of the GeForce and Radeon cards is often more than enough these days.

As Apple are writing the drivers and supporting the hardware themselves anyway there is no reason for them to offer say a GTX 260 and then write optimized drivers for the Quadro FX 4800 (I think they are pretty much the same, I forget) when they can get the same performance from the GeForce card. The Quadro would benefit someone who wanted to work in other OSes too without switching cards and stuff, but Apple don't seem to fussed on that. Which makes me wonder what sort of support you get from NVIDIA for a Mac Quadro FX 5600 or FX 4500 anyway.

As (my understanding of) OpenCL is tapping in to the raw processing power of the GPU anyway, it doesn't seem to be important if it is a Quadro or GeForce if they have the same hardware. I've seen a few posts saying how can Apple offer Workstations without pro cards over the years, but in the end it is only really important if you want to run another OS too.

It would be foolish at this time, especially given the market/brand they've created for graphics professionals. After this one though, who knows.

Yeah Mac Pros are going to be needed for the pro apps and I don't see them dropping those any time soon, it's a successful part of their business and, far more importantly, their image.

Even if Apple are selling only 100,000 Mac Pros a year, that is likely $300-$400m in revenue and with Apple's margins a fair profit. You don't just stop that to adhere to some image change. Not when you have shareholders.

 

[BenRoethig]

Maybe opposite of his design philosophy, not of Apple's attitude to software, OSX and solutions.

Not the same Apple it was before the intel transition. The iPhone/iPod, the Macbook line and their target audience is Apple's focus now.

It would be foolish at this time, especially given the market/brand they've created for graphics professionals. After this one though, who knows.

Unfortunately Apple has figured out the uninformed masses are much more lucrative than professionals. Many more of them and they're much easier to please. Just look at what they've been doing lately. Releases to Pro Apps are infrequent and with little fanfare. Glossy has all but replaced matte screens (over the objection of professionals) and music professionals were left high and dry with the new Macbooks which preferred by many due to its combination of portability with full features. Apple has shown its more than willing to jettison users if they don't match their direction.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Apple will give up the MacPro to concentrate on consumer machines is nuts (at least in the next several years). There is no way Apple would abandon the professional markets that it dominates (graphic arts, music, film,video). Regardless of how many they sell, Apple absolutely has to have a pro-level computer to support a very key segment of the market.

Who thought iMacs were going to replace the strong selling sub-$2000 PowerMacs, once Apple's bread and butter?

Remember, this isn't only about hardware, but software, too. If they killed the MacPro, it wouldn't be long before their pro apps died also (Final Cut, Logic, etc). Why would you need pro-level apps when there's no pro-level hardware to run them on?

There have been those persistent rumors about Apple selling the pro-apps. Apple has a pattern. They go full tilt into something making the best products possible, when they run out of ideas and get bored with it, they move on to something else and leave the thing they were working to neglect. Either full on or full off. Apple is its consumer cycle. Problems for pros is that they've never made this kind of money before and really never had products that could stand up to the level of the Mac as their focus. Apple is making a lot of money on the iPhone/iPod/iTunes sector and selling a lot of consumer Macs because of it.

 

[WATCHDOG]

Even if Apple are selling only 100,000 Mac Pros a year, that is likely $300-$400m in revenue and with Apple's margins a fair profit. You don't just stop that to adhere to some image change. Not when you have shareholders.

+++

I don't think Mac Pros'll vanish tomorrow: Why throw money out the window?; and does anyone have a link to Mac units sold?

Meanwhile, an article related to this sub-topic.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10465188/1/apple-mac-sales-down-you-dont-say.html

 

[Umbongo]

+++

I don't think Mac Pros'll vanish tomorrow: Why throw money out the window?; and does anyone have a link to Mac units sold?

Meanwhile, an article related to this sub-topic.

The only official numbers are grouped as desktops and notebooks and can be found on Apple's official investor relations page.

 

[8CoreWhore]

Final Cut Studio has over 50% of the professional market. It runs best on a MP. Most of the other professional suites from Autodesk, etc, run on Mac. Until someone wants to demonstrate that the MP loses money for Apple, I have no reason to think they will discontinue it. Oh, and Pixar uses MP - thank you very much. I can just see Jobs ordering new Dell's for his Pixar artist.

 

[8CoreWhore]

Not the same Apple it was before the intel transition. The iPhone/iPod, the Macbook line and their target audience is Apple's focus now.



Unfortunately Apple has figured out the uninformed masses are much more lucrative than professionals. Many more of them and they're much easier to please. Just look at what they've been doing lately. Releases to Pro Apps are infrequent and with little fanfare. Glossy has all but replaced matte screens (over the objection of professionals) and music professionals were left high and dry with the new Macbooks which preferred by many due to its combination of portability with full features. Apple has shown its more than willing to jettison users if they don't match their direction.



Who thought iMacs were going to replace the strong selling sub-$2000 PowerMacs, once Apple's bread and butter?



There have been those persistent rumors about Apple selling the pro-apps. Apple has a pattern. They go full tilt into something making the best products possible, when they run out of ideas and get bored with it, they move on to something else and leave the thing they were working to neglect. Either full on or full off. Apple is its consumer cycle. Problems for pros is that they've never made this kind of money before and really never had products that could stand up to the level of the Mac as their focus. Apple is making a lot of money on the iPhone/iPod/iTunes sector and selling a lot of consumer Macs because of it.

Care to point to these "persistent rumors"?

 

[nanofrog]

The issue with Apple and "pro" cards is that the pro cards are only really better because they have the optimized drivers, certification and support for applications and that most of those apps are not for OS X. And as already discussed the raw power of the GeForce and Radeon cards is often more than enough these days.

As Apple are writing the drivers and supporting the hardware themselves anyway there is no reason for them to offer say a GTX 260 and then write optimized drivers for the Quadro FX 4800 (I think they are pretty much the same, I forget) when they can get the same performance from the GeForce card. The Quadro would benefit someone who wanted to work in other OSes too without switching cards and stuff, but Apple don't seem to fussed on that. Which makes me wonder what sort of support you get from NVIDIA for a Mac Quadro FX 5600 or FX 4500 anyway.

As (my understanding of) OpenCL is tapping in to the raw processing power of the GPU anyway, it doesn't seem to be important if it is a Quadro or GeForce if they have the same hardware. I've seen a few posts saying how can Apple offer Workstations without pro cards over the years, but in the end it is only really important if you want to run another OS too.

Yeah Mac Pros are going to be needed for the pro apps and I don't see them dropping those any time soon, it's a successful part of their business and, far more importantly, their image.

Even if Apple are selling only 100,000 Mac Pros a year, that is likely $300-$400m in revenue and with Apple's margins a fair profit. You don't just stop that to adhere to some image change. Not when you have shareholders.

Yes, they do have optimized drivers, on the same basic hardware. Generally speaking, I was thinking in terms of the differences, though seemingly minor, might prove worth it technically speaking. As an example, the 5800 having 4GB memory. I'm reserving judgment until a comparison can be made.

You do have a good point with Apple creating the drivers. I do think it possible that this might change, given the recent impression of closer relations between Apple and nVidia. Again it's a big if, but theoretically possible. Provided Apple won't feel like they're losing control.

As ATI writes their own, they might make an OS X version for the V8700, provided they feel there's a market. They dabbled with it (consumer) on the 3870, but I've no idea if it proved profitable. Let alone if the professional side has the numbers to make it tempting. Personally, I think they'd wait for additional apps first, but that's just me.

As for apps, absolutely, Windows is the strong player here, and obviously the main target. OS X could see greater support. It's all tied together, and seems to be a "chicken and egg" scenario (apps & hardware+drivers). Not sure, but somehow I'm not holding out much hope. Proof, in the form of OS X compatible versions would be needed to convince me.

Not the same Apple it was before the intel transition. The iPhone/iPod, the Macbook line and their target audience is Apple's focus now.

Unfortunately Apple has figured out the uninformed masses are much more lucrative than professionals. Many more of them and they're much easier to please. Just look at what they've been doing lately. Releases to Pro Apps are infrequent and with little fanfare. Glossy has all but replaced matte screens (over the objection of professionals) and music professionals were left high and dry with the new Macbooks which preferred by many due to its combination of portability with full features. Apple has shown its more than willing to jettison users if they don't match their direction.

Who thought iMacs were going to replace the strong selling sub-$2000 PowerMacs, once Apple's bread and butter?

There have been those persistent rumors about Apple selling the pro-apps. Apple has a pattern. They go full tilt into something making the best products possible, when they run out of ideas and get bored with it, they move on to something else and leave the thing they were working to neglect. Either full on or full off. Apple is its consumer cycle. Problems for pros is that they've never made this kind of money before and really never had products that could stand up to the level of the Mac as their focus. Apple is making a lot of money on the iPhone/iPod/iTunes sector and selling a lot of consumer Macs because of it.

The consumer market is an obvious "gigantic golden carrot" that's just too tempting to leave alone. Business is there to make $$$, and that need is always first. Provided they can still make a profit in the professional market, I would think they'd have reason to stay.

But it is , so who knows.

 

[Eidorian]

At least the GTS 240 is a higher clocked 8800/9800GT.

 

[Umbongo]

As an example, the 5800 having 4GB memory. I'm reserving judgment until a comparison can be made.

Yeah the 4GB of memory is a lot, but perhaps 1.8GB and the power of two GPUs might outweigh it. I don't really know much about OpenCL (or Cuda) though.

As ATI writes their own, they might make an OS X version for the V8700, provided they feel there's a market.

I would think the market is tiny, like a few thousand users tops. The real market for the pro cards doesn't seem to be for the digital content creation market, but ones like science, finance, engineering. Not really the Mac's forté.

 

[Pressure]

At least the GTS 240 is a higher clocked 8800/9800GT.

Well, considering you can already install and use the Geforce 9800GTX+ in both Mac OS X and Windows on the current Mac Pro it doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

[Tallest Skil]

Well, considering you can already install and use the Geforce 9800GTX+ in both Mac OS X and Windows on the current Mac Pro it doesn't seem all that impressive.

This level of absurdity demands a link to the process!

 

[kabunaru]

This level of absurdity demands a link to the process!

Do you need a link with proof for everything?

 

[MacVidCards]

Well, considering you can already install and use the Geforce 9800GTX+ in both Mac OS X and Windows on the current Mac Pro it doesn't seem all that impressive.

I too would like to see proof of this.

I have tried writing a ROM to make these work, I have one right now.

Best I can do is scrambled nonsense in OSX....and this after copying all of the RAM timings, softstraps, and clocks over.

BTW...I'm a big fan of Denmark. I Art Directed the last three commercial campaigns for KiMs chips. 5% was my favorite. Go Jorgen !!!

 

[Tallest Skil]

Do you need a link with proof for everything?

When Apple restricts its hardware in the manner that it does, yes.

I do remember reading about this, though.

 

[tylerk36]

For all we know there may not even be another Mac Pro!!! Did Apple make an announcement yet???

The new Mac Pro specs are as follows.

32 core Motown
500 GB DDR 9 10 riser cards let's say 20 perts. I mispelled that on purpose. Lets get an english tutor in here.
10 X 4 TB or is that 4 X 10 maybe 4 10 X 4's or 10 4 X 10's Well what the hell does it matter; Hard Drives
4 Red Ray VDV not DVD burners
10 USB 6.0 Ports
4 Firewire 400
4 Fire Wire 800
10 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics ports. All are SLISILSLI Capable
2 PCI Express 2.0 Ports for whatever
8D sound card.
Laser Optical ports because we can. Ooh pretty red lights.
Red Tooth (who needs to brush here)
Built in 19" LCD for kicks and giggles
And finally but not least R2D2 guard dog
Total cost. Well You would have to be Bill Gates.
Oh did I say it has OS 12 oops there goes that stupid English Errroorrrs again. Any one wish to correct me. There was a little red; dog, and, yet; could he; I, and saw; red hat. Grade F-

 

[MacVidCards]

http://325i.org/2009/01/28/howto-use-a-pc-geforce-9800gtx-in-a-real-mac-pro/

When I get done working, I'm gonna try this out.

Did I mention that I also have a 9800GX2 I have been fiddling with?


......

 

[indiochano]

Unfortunately, I find that a real possibility. Apple's target group is the average consumer now and the MacPro is really in the opposite direction of ive's design philosophy.

there's no way in hell apple will sacrifice their pro line...

they have waaaaaay too much to lose if they do scrap it out... think about the influence apple has in the creative field: graphic design, animation, video and motion, audio, music, science, etc. etc.