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The 2011-2012 Football Thread

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Kariya said:
Welcome to the modern era of football where clubs are starting to buy trophies rather than actually winning them. (Real and City) as someone rightly pointed out...
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Make no mistake, the riches of the 'big' clubs ensure that they stay at the top. Manchester United and Arsenal certainly aren't paupers heroically fighting a noble fight against the rich – there have been quite a few occasions this season when Manchester United's starting eleven has cost them more than the one Manchester City have fielded that weekend.

Equally, we're not seeing teams 'starting' to win because of money – it's been the case for decades, the difference now is that the sums involved have grown so huge that the clubs involved have started to become untouchable. The only way to match them is to be bought out by someone whose wealth will allow you to compete – as Manchester City has done.

It's the nature of the beast that's been created, the Premier League is obsessed with wealth. When clubs are promoted to the 'promised land' first mention isn't given to the teams they'll be playing, or the stadia they'll visit – it's how much the promotion will be worth to them financially. Money's all that matters, it seems, so it's only right and proper that the League's richest club should be its champion.
 
Kariya said:
Welcome to the modern era of football where clubs are starting to buy trophies rather than actually winning them. (Real and City) as someone rightly pointed out...
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Jaffa Cake said:
Make no mistake, the riches of the 'big' clubs ensure that they stay at the top. Manchester United and Arsenal certainly aren't paupers heroically fighting a noble fight against the rich – there have been quite a few occasions this season when Manchester United's starting eleven has cost them more than the one Manchester City have fielded that weekend.

Equally, we're not seeing teams 'starting' to win because of money – it's been the case for decades, the difference now is that the sums involved have grown so huge that the clubs involved have started to become untouchable. The only way to match them is to be bought out by someone whose wealth will allow you to compete – as Manchester City has done.
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Spot on, Mr. Cake...I think the whole won it vs bought it argument is an exercise in revisionist history. Ever since football went professional, money has been used to gain a competitive advantage.

The only difference these days is, as you pointed out, the fact that the numbers involved are now stratospheric. Every title has been bought to some extent, and that will never change.
 
this is most certainly true for the PL and PD, however not so much for the Bundesliga. Remember Dortmund went nearly bankrupt at the beginning of the millenium, trying to rival Bayern's financial power. And the past two seasons show that money does not always win you titles, even though Dortmund does have quite a bit of money now due to the past two titles, stadium, big following, however they are still consolidating. I hope FFP will bring some equality into european football, so those insane prices will finally come to an end and other leagues gain a little bit more of attraction outside their respective countries by attracting players from other big leagues. I'm still trying to make sense of the fact that any player from the Bundesliga is getting transfered for peanuts(compared to what is being paid in the PL for players).
 
Lord Blackadder said:
Don't forget about MLS! :D
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Apologies to those with antipodean football seasons. Playing football during the summer when the weather is nice? What's that all about?:rolleyes:

Here's a bit of bizarre news, there is an outside risk that by the end of today Scotland will be awarded Euro 2020! Yes that's right, the contest they haven't actually bid for.

The reason for this is Turkey are the only country currently bidding for Euro 2020. Preliminary bids close at the end of today. If Turkey were the sole bidders, they would automatically be awarded the competition. However Turkey are also rather keen on hosting the Olympics the same year and the IOC won't let them do both. So the rumours are Turkey will withdraw their interest today and Scotland will put in a last minute joint bid with Wales.

Scotland have previously tried to host Euro 2008 with Ireland but it came unstuck, I'm going to blame Irish dithering over a new stadium but there were other problems with the bid. The problem now is the competition has been expanded from 16 to 24 teams (and we still can't qualify :mad:) so it was also my impression that we're now not big enough to entertain all those teams. Another problem is 6 of our best stadia are in 2 cities: Hampden, Ibrox, Parkhead (Glasgow) and Murrayfield, Tynecastle, Easter Road (Edinburgh). I can only see us being allowed to use 2 in each city. Aberdeen and Dundee Utd are getting new stadiums and use the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff so that's only 7 venues, Poland/Ukraine are using 8 stadiums of 40,000+

Too small are Fir Park (Motherwell), Rugby Park (Killie), and McDiarmid Park (St Johnston, Perth). So I reckon we need another stadium, perhaps Newcastle?

EDIT: Scotland have bid with Ireland and Wales
 
Fuzzy14 said:
I wasn't sure if they were big enough or if their design allows them to be expanded. However the inclusion of Ireland in the bid gets around that hurdle.
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I'm pretty sure the design of the two grounds would allow for expansion – most new grounds of their size are built so they can be added to fairly easily from a structural point of view. The problem is though getting the funding to do so, and also whether the enlarged ground would be used to its potential after the tournament has ended.

I reckon England should have a go. In a two horse race against a country that doesn't want the tournament in the first place we'd at least get two votes. :p
 
RE: Fergie. Sour grapes, Sir Alex. Sour grapes.

Good point about the Bundesliga, olup. I still think the money wins titles even in Germany, but the parity between teams (apart from Bayern) is much better and it is a lot harder for teams to dominate the league. This is also true in MLS, where big-market teams like LA and New York fail often, much to the delight of smaller-market teams.

Fuzzy, sounds like Euro 2020 might just happen for you after all? The upside is that if you host you automatically qualify, so you can't fail there! ;)
 
olup said:
this is most certainly true for the PL and PD, however not so much for the Bundesliga. Remember Dortmund went nearly bankrupt at the beginning of the millenium, trying to rival Bayern's financial power. And the past two seasons show that money does not always win you titles, even though Dortmund does have quite a bit of money now due to the past two titles, stadium, big following, however they are still consolidating. I hope FFP will bring some equality into european football, so those insane prices will finally come to an end and other leagues gain a little bit more of attraction outside their respective countries by attracting players from other big leagues. I'm still trying to make sense of the fact that any player from the Bundesliga is getting transfered for peanuts(compared to what is being paid in the PL for players).
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comparing Bayern with Dortmund though is difficult... in another season Bayerns league points would have been enough for a championship, Dortmund also had massive luck in regards to the seasonal-shape of their different players: they balanced themselves out very well while at Bayern many players were either in a slump at the same time or the opposite

from pure fan support i actually would rate Dortmund higher than bayern, after all they have the bigger stadium and i would guess merchandise sales per stadium visitor are also higher in Dortmund

in terms of successful long term money management one simply has to tip his hat to Bayern: when Uli Hoeneß took over Bayern was near bankruptcy with dwindling viewership and made it a financial powerhouse who wins national titles pretty consistent and can play CL as well (afaik this year their net profit is around 20 mio euro)
i think one of their big points is that Bayern has become a very focused "buyer" in the player market in the last years, Robben, Ribery, Neuer, Gomez ... all very expensive single transfers but they combine it with very good scouting and youth work opposed to Wolfsburg who blows away their VW money for dozens of mediocre players, season after season
 
If any of our friends on mainland Europe feel tremors tomorrow, don't worry – it's not an earthquake, just Europe's footballers trembling in fear as England's Euro 2012 squad is announced.

The news this evening is that Rio Ferdinand doesn't make the cut...
 
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takao said:
comparing Bayern with Dortmund though is difficult... in another season Bayerns league points would have been enough for a championship, Dortmund also had massive luck in regards to the seasonal-shape of their different players: they balanced themselves out very well while at Bayern many players were either in a slump at the same time or the opposite

from pure fan support i actually would rate Dortmund higher than bayern, after all they have the bigger stadium and i would guess merchandise sales per stadium visitor are also higher in Dortmund

in terms of successful long term money management one simply has to tip his hat to Bayern: when Uli Hoeneß took over Bayern was near bankruptcy with dwindling viewership and made it a financial powerhouse who wins national titles pretty consistent and can play CL as well (afaik this year their net profit is around 20 mio euro)
i think one of their big points is that Bayern has become a very focused "buyer" in the player market in the last years, Robben, Ribery, Neuer, Gomez ... all very expensive single transfers but they combine it with very good scouting and youth work opposed to Wolfsburg who blows away their VW money for dozens of mediocre players, season after season
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My point was that money doesn't always bring in titles, hence the Dortmund 2000ish era Bayern comparison. Back then they were trying to match Bayern's already filled warchest by spending ridiculous sums of money for players that didn't perform. Nowadays it's a different story, however next season Dortmund is forced to do well in the Champions League to keep its players happy. Off topic: the relegation games in the Bundesliga turned into chaos. I hope this doesn't happen at the EC........http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/relegation-chaos-ueberschattet-partie-zwischen-duesseldorf-und-berlin-a-833407.html
 
Jaffa Cake said:
The news this evening is that Rio Ferdinand doesn't make the cut...
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Terry shouldn't be in it either. If he is I can only hope he plays the way he did against Liverpool in their last league meeting.

olup said:
My point was that money doesn't always bring in titles.
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I disagree somewhat - the richest club may not always be the winner, it's true, but the poorest club never is. At some level you need to be financially competitive in terms of transfer and wage funds before you can even think of being competitive on the pitch.
 
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Georgia threw their hat in at the last minute, so we're going to have to wait 18 months to find out if the Celtic (that's with a hard K like Kel-tick) nations will be hosting Euro 2020.

Surely Scotland can beat Turkey who don't want it and Georgia. Surely?:confused:

If Euro96 was football's coming home, will Euro2020 be football's getting deep fried?;)
 
Article says he left his post. Is that the new 'code word' for he was sacked?

I guess Woy picked EBJT over Rio because he needed experience/leadership at the back, but Rio simply can't cope with the Euro schedule given his back problems. Thus leaving EBJT as the only other choice.

Carroll over Crouch is a surprise though. Hmm...i'd have gone for the latter tbh.
 
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I'm sorry the Dalglish saga ended badly, but I'm not really sorry to see him go. I just don't think he was a long-term solution.

Now we need a manager.

daneoni said:
I guess Woy picked EBJT over Rio because he needed experience/leadership at the back, but Rio simply can't cope with the Euro schedule given his back problems. Thus leaving EBJT as the only other choice.
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I agree; I suspect that healthiness was the deciding factor. A very difficult call given the off-the-pitch scandal going on.

daneoni said:
Carroll over Crouch is a surprise though. Hmm...i'd have gone for the latter tbh.
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swiftaw said:
I can't believe Defoe is in the squad, a barely remember him playing this season.
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Crouch is good but never going to get any better, Carroll is young and may yet become a very good striker for England for the future. He is also showing a little uptick in form just now. But at the moment Crouch is the more polished product and has a good scoring record. It is a calculated risk. Carroll is also a bigger physical presence.

Defoe has been a fringe player this season. Hodgson's choices at striker are limited though. Defoe is pacy and has good finishing. Bent would have probably made the squad if truly healthy.
 
swiftaw said:
I would have taken Holt over Defoe
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I think I'm with you, if just for the novelty value, but Holt is not that fast. I suspect Hodgson made the decision based on Defoe's speed and international experience. Certainly it wasn't on current form!
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
I think I'm with you, if just for the novelty value, but Holt is not that fast. I suspect Hodgson made the decision based on Defoe's speed and international experience. Certainly it wasn't on current form!
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and what good is a fast striker if the only central defensive midfielder with any reputation in the squad is the, slow as molasses, Barry... i seriously doubt that Barry has become faster since the last tournament where he has been a glaring weakness


IMHO Crouch would have been an good compromise ... since Rooney is banned for two games it leaves the english with Defoe, Carroll and Welbeck ... by all means that is a massive problem

the amount of strikers aren't important in a squad, it's not like in the midfield with adopting different tactics etc. but a lack of quality is

Germany has a whopping 3 strikers in their line up ... and their 3rd choice Cacau only will get chance if there is an injury or ban because of his below average season
 
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