You sure?
Here are some numbers.
http://m.motherjones.com/media/2016/03/heres-pay-gap-between-us-womens-and-mens-soccer-teams
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The 2015-2016 Football Thread
- Thread starter Lord Blackadder
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You sure?
Here are some numbers.
http://m.motherjones.com/media/2016/03/heres-pay-gap-between-us-womens-and-mens-soccer-teams
B
If it were just a question of economics and consumer demand, I would agree with you entirely. But what we are dealing with here includes much larger, longer-term social issues. Sexism is still an incredible problem in sports when the president of FIFA publicly suggests they wear tighter uniforms or when powerful figures in the tennis world opine that women should be "down on their knees" thanking men for allowing them to "ride on their coat-tails."
Will women ever be able to match men in terms of average size, speed and muscle mass? No. Does that mean male soccer will always be the premier manifestation of the sport? Possibly, but right now the question is not one of quality of play, but of institutional sexism that humiliates women and actively prevents even the opportunity for equality.
And yes, as far as I'm concerned, the USWNT should be getting paid more then the men at the moment. They won the WC; the men duffed it in the Gold Cup and have been crap ever since.
I don't want to turn this into a political thread (I waste far too much time on MR over there as it is!!), but women couldn't even vote until the 20th century in most of Europe and the Americas. That's not that long ago, and we still have a long, long way to go before women get a fair shake in sports (and western society as a whole) as far as I'm concerned.
So, in short, I'm inclined to believe the USWNT when they claim US Soccer is giving them a raw deal in terms of pay. And so far the numbers bear them out.
Personally, I far prefer the WNT's style of play.
Some of that has to do with Jill Ellis having a more stable roster and a fairly consistent game plan with more roster depth.
When they play with teams in the women's top five it's really decent quality soccer.
Maybe, that's just me. I also enjoy watching the over 50s play on Sunday mornings in my town, because their game emphasizes brain over sheer brawn.
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Some of that has to do with Jill Ellis having a more stable roster and a fairly consistent game plan with more roster depth.
When they play with teams in the women's top five it's really decent quality soccer.
Maybe, that's just me. I also enjoy watching the over 50s play on Sunday mornings in my town, because their game emphasizes brain over sheer brawn.
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They chose 2015 because it was a World Cup year for the women. The men had nothing but friendlies. Why did they not look at revenue over the past four years? They cherry picked the stats that favored them.
US Soccers response.
http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/03/31/sunil-gulati-uswnt-equal-pay-wage-discrimination-lawsuit
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I suppose you prefer the wnba style of play too. I watch the women's World Cup out of national pride. I'm used to top class soccer and the women don't bring that. That's why even in Europe where the game is big, nobody goes to watch the women's game. And by the way the women got the contract they negotiated for. The chose lower guaranteed pay over higher risky pay that was not guaranteed.
I'd be OK with just the base participation pay being more equitable.
When the MNT can make more money losing all of their required games than the WNT can earn by winning all of theirs as reigning world champions something is amiss.
EDIT: I actually don't enjoy watching basketball, men's or women's, but this isn't the thread to discuss that in.
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When the MNT can make more money losing all of their required games than the WNT can earn by winning all of theirs as reigning world champions something is amiss.
EDIT: I actually don't enjoy watching basketball, men's or women's, but this isn't the thread to discuss that in.
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Sexism in life swings both ways; there are currently a number of adverts in the UK where if they switched the man out for a female there would be uproar - but it's a man, so that's okay. Wider: Men are victims of domestic abuse - let's have a good laugh. How are the Family courts? Vacuuming, ironing, and cooking are work, but maintaining the property inside and out, we can call that DIY - which is a hobby, and there's nothing a man likes more than spending a rare day off enjoying his hobby. And so on. Currently the media and government are tripping over themselves trying to outscore on the female front - only women are hard done to, they can do no wrong, all men are bastards. Both males and females suffer inequality. On wages, you don't just pay a man the same as a higher paid woman because we can't be having a difference in remuneration or he is suffering sexist jibes.
With regard to the sexism examples, both are ridiculous; Blatter's for the idea, the tennis chief's for the way he phrased the argument - didn't he resign before being pushed? As to women's tennis, I stopped watching; grunting and 30 minute matches.
There are men and women preventing the opportunity for true equality; men who don't want to see women compete with and against men because they are women, and women happy to take equal pay without being exposed to/by tougher competition. As I've said, if after consideration the USWNT deserve more, adjust away - the gap does seem excessive. But the question has to be asked, how far would they have travelled in the Men's World Cup?
Fair shake in sport; the last to finish in the Men's 10,000m at the London Olympics 2012 ran 29 minutes 32.12 seconds, the winner of the Women's completed in 30 minutes 20.75 seconds. Of course, different races/tactics, but the female World Record is 29 minutes 31.78 seconds; within the realm of a battle of wills. The man returns empty-handed (in disgrace and shunned by his village
), the women have an Olympic Gold, Olympic Record, and World Record between them. In paid events, the women would earn more. They have a fair shake.Cheers,
OW
Real beats Barca, and Crispy Ronaldo gets photographed in his undies in the locker room so we can all count and confirm he still has 12-pack abs. Did he make them all wait while he undressed?
Sexism swings both ways, but certainly not to an equal degree over the last 6,000 years of recorded human culture. I think we are not yet at the point where society at large have collectively acknowledged the full depth of gender inequality and male privilege present in most world cultures (i.e. Blatter's opinions are still far too widespread, c.f. Donald Trump & Co, too many examples to list). Football is still run by men, for example. Mostly old, wealthy and white as well - and that has consequences for determining who has power within the game and who does not.
That's not an attack on men, nor is it an assertion of the infallibility of all specific claims for gender equality. Cultures evolve, hopefully for the better, over time. But I think we have a lot of cultural baggage that has yet to be adequately dealt with before we can truly make the kinds of comparisons or changes you're alluding to - the sporting realm is not the only place where this inequality manifests itself. Big cultural shifts don't happen overnight, nor are they a simple, neat process. It's going to take along time, and will be messy.
Right now the women's game is smaller, and they are a million miles away from equality of pay with men. MUCH of that is accounted for by the small size and recent development of women's professional and international soccer - but not ALL of it.
In short, this is not a footballing problem with footballing answers. The USWNT's lawsuit is merely a manifestation of a much bigger cultural process. But maybe, if I'm being an optimist, football can evolve in small ways that help set a good example for the rest of society.
Sexism swings both ways, but certainly not to an equal degree over the last 6,000 years of recorded human culture. I think we are not yet at the point where society at large have collectively acknowledged the full depth of gender inequality and male privilege present in most world cultures (i.e. Blatter's opinions are still far too widespread, c.f. Donald Trump & Co, too many examples to list). Football is still run by men, for example. Mostly old, wealthy and white as well - and that has consequences for determining who has power within the game and who does not.
That's not an attack on men, nor is it an assertion of the infallibility of all specific claims for gender equality. Cultures evolve, hopefully for the better, over time. But I think we have a lot of cultural baggage that has yet to be adequately dealt with before we can truly make the kinds of comparisons or changes you're alluding to - the sporting realm is not the only place where this inequality manifests itself. Big cultural shifts don't happen overnight, nor are they a simple, neat process. It's going to take along time, and will be messy.
Right now the women's game is smaller, and they are a million miles away from equality of pay with men. MUCH of that is accounted for by the small size and recent development of women's professional and international soccer - but not ALL of it.
In short, this is not a footballing problem with footballing answers. The USWNT's lawsuit is merely a manifestation of a much bigger cultural process. But maybe, if I'm being an optimist, football can evolve in small ways that help set a good example for the rest of society.
Real; deserved win after the disallowed Bale goal.
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I'll learn from the last 6,000 years, but I care about now; women murder, mug, abuse, falsely accuse, lie, cheat, manipulate... In this part of the world the downtrodden shtick has gone on too long. A BBC headline on their TV text news page alerted us to women's struggle because of the Old Boys' Network, down the article, almost begrudgingly, it mentions white working and middle class males, black males, Asian males etc. facing the same struggle. Much of it can be applied to your description of who runs football. It isn't a male v female thing.
As for sexist, derogatory mouthpieces; there are the adverts, news programming/interviews/articles, soap operas, chat shows, government campaigns etc. all happy to kick males - it's constant and seen/heard by millions. Equality doesn't mean going over the top the other way, which is where we are.
I hope we can have equality, instead of the pick and choose BS we have now.
Cheers,
OW
Get off your potty. First, I'm not crying, second, one wrong doesn't make another wrong right.
We can agree to disagree; We've all laid out our positions and for my part I'll leave it at that.
Conte going to Chelsea with a match-fixing court case hanging over his head; if he loses he'll get a six-month (suspended) jail sentence plus a laughably small fine. The potential of having a convicted criminal at the helm should't bother Roman, who likely has a multitude of skeletons in his closet anyway. But uncertain times at Chelsea...the money is still there but money doesn't buy as much success as it did ten years ago when there were hardly any other uber-rich clubs around. Will the players bother to show up for the new man? Will there be a clear-out?
Conte going to Chelsea with a match-fixing court case hanging over his head; if he loses he'll get a six-month (suspended) jail sentence plus a laughably small fine. The potential of having a convicted criminal at the helm should't bother Roman, who likely has a multitude of skeletons in his closet anyway. But uncertain times at Chelsea...the money is still there but money doesn't buy as much success as it did ten years ago when there were hardly any other uber-rich clubs around. Will the players bother to show up for the new man? Will there be a clear-out?
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So, Real Madrid make their recent El Clasico win even more meaningless by putting themselves in a huge danger of being knocked out of the Champions League by Wolfsburg. If the Germans can score in the return leg Real will be in Big Trouble, though Ronaldo & Co are capable of scoring any number of goals at home...
Meanhwile Manchester City grab two valuable away goals in Paris. Both teams look very unpredictable, there's no telling what will happen in the second leg.
Meanhwile Manchester City grab two valuable away goals in Paris. Both teams look very unpredictable, there's no telling what will happen in the second leg.
Watching Man City and PSG was like watching two babies fighting in robotic combat suits - the clubs are immensely talented and wealthy, their potential to do wonderful things on the pitch is high - but they are still too young and naive to know how to be professional and ruthless. Their play is predicated on moments of individual mistakes or individual brilliance.
Somehow, if they want to remain footballing powers in the long-term, they need to build a bit more discipline and self-identity. It's too much to ask for another Ferguson or Wenger in terms of tenure, but it would benefit them if their sporting directors hung around, kept to a good long-term plan and then managed to keep managers for more than just a couple years.
EDIT: A good result for Liveprool in Germany and a good performance. As usual Liverpool's poor finishing wasted several golden opportunities to put the game away. Sakho has emerged as Liverpool's best central defender, he has certainly made progress this season even if he is capable of the odd howler. Lovren has come along too, to the point that Skrtel is probably in the wilderness.
The game was pretty exciting, even without the Klopp-Cam.
Somehow, if they want to remain footballing powers in the long-term, they need to build a bit more discipline and self-identity. It's too much to ask for another Ferguson or Wenger in terms of tenure, but it would benefit them if their sporting directors hung around, kept to a good long-term plan and then managed to keep managers for more than just a couple years.
EDIT: A good result for Liveprool in Germany and a good performance. As usual Liverpool's poor finishing wasted several golden opportunities to put the game away. Sakho has emerged as Liverpool's best central defender, he has certainly made progress this season even if he is capable of the odd howler. Lovren has come along too, to the point that Skrtel is probably in the wilderness.
The game was pretty exciting, even without the Klopp-Cam.
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For Dortmund's part, their wide play was poor - despite the goal; lost count of the number of times a late run on either wing would've seen them behind the defence - both teams stuck along Liverpool's 18 yard line. Not just Dortmund, seems the continuing fashion is to try to batter your way through the centre, or, if you are crossing, float it in front of the defence so it is easy for them to head away. Both teams missed good chances in a game far from the feast quite a few were hoping it would be - being a fan of either team probably helped. Will Dortmund be as bad in the second leg? Can Liverpool resist the crowd?
Moreno.
Cheers,
OW
Moreno
.Cheers,
OW
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For Dortmund's part, their wide play was poor - despite the goal; lost count of the number of times a late run on either wing would've seen them behind the defence - both teams stuck along Liverpool's 18 yard line. Not just Dortmund, seems the continuing fashion is to try to batter your way through the centre, or, if you are crossing, float it in front of the defence so it is easy for them to head away. Both teams missed good chances in a game far from the feast quite a few were hoping it would be - being a fan of either team probably helped. Will Dortmund be as bad in the second leg? Can Liverpool resist the crowd?
Moreno
Cheers,
OW
Yes, supporting one team or the other certainly helped a good deal.
Result is fair imho, Pool's goal was a bit unsuspected at the time since BVB manged to control the match at that point having some good opportunities and then received outta nowhere. But Pool had some other chances where we got really lucky. Moreno can call himself lucky that he didn't see a mandatory yellow (possible red imho), hence missing the second leg, when he rushed like a dumb one into Pulisic at the BVB corner at the end.
In the end I think it was an interesting match. Dortmund certainly played it save after the equalizer, not trying to get lost in the usual Klopp-chaos and controlled the game without risking anything (1:2 would have helped Pool way more than a 2:1 for Dortmund). Typical first leg stuff imho.
50/50 I'd say. Hope Dortmnud gets Gündogan and Ramos fit until then.
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Moreno has been doing that all season; he's on the pitch because of his ability to get forward but his defending is wild, and he just can't stop making two-footed challenges that are part tackle, part block, and part karate kick.
Liverpool have the away goal, but the advantage is slight - particularly as I can't see Liverpool keeping a clean sheet in the second leg against a team of Dortmund's quality.
Liverpool have the away goal, but the advantage is slight - particularly as I can't see Liverpool keeping a clean sheet in the second leg against a team of Dortmund's quality.
Agreed. I can't see a 0:0 at all in the second leg. Everything is possible, but I say Dortmund proceeds further
Agreed. I can't see a 0:0 at all in the second leg. Everything is possible, but I say Dortmund proceeds further
They should, they are the better team, and probably should win the Europa League as well. If Liverpool win it will be an upset. Still, Liverpool are capable of excellent football at times and Klopp knows this is his only chance to secure Champions League football next season.
Well, I think Liverpool fully deserved the draw yesterday and played actually better than I thought. Some good defending and a couple of dangerous actions in Dormunds box - not much more youü can do against a superior team (imo) away.
I don't fully agree with OWs statement re Dortmunds play but they lacked some serious final punch - although I am quite firm on thinking that was mostly due the match being the first leg and Liverpool was too hard to overcome without risking too much.
The first leg is usually cagey unless one team is totally outclassed (like Real at Wofsburg
). Liverpool's mission was "don't lose, score if possible." Dortmund wanted to win if possible but needed to avoid conceding away goals.Henderson is out for the season and likely the Euros too with knee ligament damage. Very bad news indeed.
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Leicester were very, very lucky today. They failed to put the game away several times and Sunderland's Rodwell missed the king of sitters. Vardy finally got the insurance goal at the very end.
But I don't care, I want Leicester to win the title. They can have all the luck they want.
3 more wins and Leicester lock it up regardless of what Spurs do, but that means beating at least one of Man Utd, Chelsea, or West Ham.
But I don't care, I want Leicester to win the title. They can have all the luck they want.
3 more wins and Leicester lock it up regardless of what Spurs do, but that means beating at least one of Man Utd, Chelsea, or West Ham.
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