The 2017-2018 Football Thread

[Scepticalscribe]

Japan played like England of decades past - no bunkering, no cheating, no time-wasting...and it might have cost them the match.

Belgium are totally likable apart from Fellaini so congrats to them. They must be thinking this world cup could be there for the taking.

Of course, Brazil must be thinking the same at this point.

Both teams deserved to get to extra time.

And yes, all credit to Japan who played superbly and yes, honourably and cleanly. (They knew that the Poland game sat ill with their traditions - I read their manager's remarks afterwards, which were unusually apologetic and defensive as he sought to justify having taken that course of action).

Not sure that it cost them; they nearly scored on a number of other occasions. This could have been a three all, or a four all game, heading into extra time.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Not sure that it cost them; they nearly scored on a number of other occasions. This could have been a three all, or a four all game, heading into extra time.

Possibly, but you know say, Uruguay would be rolling on the ground, running down the clock, not attacking. But against Belgium you can never be sure even those tactics will work. They found themselves in a position where they needed three goals to progress, and they found them.

Kudos also to Martinez, who is sometimes criticized as an amiable and brainy but lightweight football manager. he made some key changes that made all the difference.

 

[bmac4]

Neymar’s words after the Mexico game. I love it! I know he dives a lot, but I can’t stand Mexico.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Neymar’s words after the Mexico game. I love it! I know he dives a lot, but I can’t stand Mexico.

Still cannot abide the man. Narcissistic git.

 

[jkcerda]

soccer players could all win an Oscar in the drama division

 

[Lioness~]

Belgium-Japan wow

Japan takes lead with 2-0
and Belgium makes 1....2....and a 3rd seconds before end.
Belgium, respect !!!

 

[Centaurr]

neymar is garbage, wig wearing dolphin...

 

[bmac4]

Still cannot abide the man. Narcissistic git.

Don’t love him, but hate the way the Mexican team plays more.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Don’t love him, but hate the way the Mexican team plays more.

No, the optics and dramatics of rolling around, flailing in pretend pain, agony etched on his features, when he had been tapped (accidentally) while not even in play, are nauseating.

What kind of message is this giving youngsters?

Can't stand him.

I wasn't impressed by Japan when they played (or, more to the point, didn't play) Poland, but they were magnificent yesterday, honourable and skilled and brave; all respect and kudos to them; that is a team worth learning from.

Had they won, I'd have loved to have seen them progress as far as possible.

 

[bmac4]

No, the optics and dramatics of rolling around, flailing in pretend pain, agony etched on his features, when he had been tapped (accidentally) while not even in play, are nauseating.

What kind of message is this giving youngsters?

Can't stand him.

I wasn't impressed by Japan when they played (or, more to the point, didn't play) Poland, but they were magnificent yesterday, honourable and skilled and brave; all respect and kudos to them; that is a team worth learning from.

Had they won, I'd have loved to have seen them progress as far as possible.

You think that was an accident? Not a chance. Being an American I watch enough Mexico vs America games to know that wasn’t an accident. They take little shot, kicks, pushes, and anything else they can after the plays are over. Most refs don’t see them, so Neymar going nuts brought attention to it. Now that being said, that doesn’t make it good, or right but it doesn’t bother me as much as Mexico’s dirty play. What kind of message does that send to kids?

I would suggest you some highlights of the US vs Mexico qualifying match from last year where we traveled to Mexico. There should have been a red card, another couple of yellows, and the red should have controlled the game. They play like this all the time. If they are overmatched, this is what they restore to.

 

[edvj]

 

[Scepticalscribe]

You think that was an accident? Not a chance. Being an American I watch enough Mexico vs America games to know that wasn’t an accident. They take little shot, kicks, pushes, and anything else they can after the plays are over. Most refs don’t see them, so Neymar going nuts brought attention to it. Now that being said, that doesn’t make it good, or right but it doesn’t bother me as much as Mexico’s dirty play. What kind of message does that send to kids?

I would suggest you some highlights of the US vs Mexico qualifying match from last year where we traveled to Mexico. There should have been a red card, another couple of yellows, and the red should have controlled the game. They play like this all the time. If they are overmatched, this is what they restore to.

Look: We know that Mexico can be a dirty team; that in no way excuses Neymar.

Once upon a distant time, Brazil were considered footballing gods. Now, while I personally never subscribed to the mythos of superlative porto-divinity on the football field attributed to South American teams, - above all, Brazil - it would be nice to see them attempt to live up to the legend of their past.

And that means skill, an insouciant almost impossible skill, not overblown diva dramatics that wouldn't have been out of pace in the exaggerated facial expressions or gestures of a silent era movie.

 

[bmac4]

Look: We know that Mexico can be a dirty team; that in no way excuses Neymar.

Once upon a distant time, Brazil were considered footballing gods. Now, while I personally never subscribed to the mythos of superlative porto-divinity on the football field attributed to South American teams, - above all, Brazil - it would be nice to see them attempt to live up to the legend of their past.

And that means skill, an insouciant almost impossible skill, not overblown diva dramatics that wouldn't have been out of pace in the exaggerated facial expressions or gestures of a silent era movie.

I am not excusing Neymar in any way, but I don’t stand for dirty football. I don’t care what else a footballer does, but playing dirty is unexceptionable. That is something no child should ever see or ever think is ok. Diva acting, while ridiculous and has no place in the sport, it’s not going to physically hurt anyone. That’s the difference for me.

Like I said before, I don’t like Neymar. I think it will only be a matter of time, but I really don’t want his drama brought to Madrid. With that being said, I will take that over players sliding late, trying to injury another player, or just taking cheap shots. That is disgusting to me, and I think it should be for everyone. Neymar’s antics can be corrected with some proper officiating. Those cheap shots after the whistle that the ref doesn’t see, those can’t. Neither are great, but I take Neymar drama over dirty play any day.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Neymar is a world-class talent, and there is no doubt that other teams try to kick him out of games.

He is not the only player that fits that description, of course - but nobody flops, rolls on the ground, gets chippy with refs, or throws hissy fits as much as he does. He really needs to grow up a bit.

 

[twietee]

Neymar is a world-class talent, and there is no doubt that other teams try to kick him out of games.

He is not the only player that fits that description, of course - but nobody flops, rolls on the ground, gets chippy with refs, or throws hissy fits as much as he does. He really needs to grow up a bit.

While this is right of course I for one agree with bmac4. Remember WC14?

Doesn't look that bad, right?

That foul (stepping on his ankle) yesterday is a red card imho - at minimum a yellow. And as long as refs (who can see that in super slow mo right at the time nowadays) do not properly protect players from injuries by the necessary means I will never understand why everybody talks about the divas but the really dangerous stuff is a side note. That Colombian player didn't get yellow (albeit hard to see with no VAR) as did the Mexican player yesterday.

Being the underdog doesn't justify running amok or an over the top physical approach. And Neymar gets fouled in one season as much as the average player gets fouled in his whole career. If at all. That's not a side-note but a real problem. And the once in a season dicsussion with no consequence like we had this time with Ramos is not making up for that.

Diving is one thing (strictly yellow card) but being fouled another - no matter how many flops and rolls you committ afterwards. Although Ney is probably the best at it.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

While this is right of course I for one agree with bmac4. Remember WC14?

...

Diving is one thing (strictly yellow card) but being fouled another - no matter how many flops and rolls you committ afterwards. Although Ney is probably the best at it.

Oh, I am not defending Layún whatsoever - he should have been sent off. But this is not a binary question of whether some players are guilty of red card offenses against Neymar OR whether Neymar is a flopping, whiny little brat. BOTH are true. And I don't like to see either happen.

Eden Hazard gets kicked every bit as much as Neymar and while he is no stranger to the odd dive, he is far less demonstrative than Neymar. I stand by my opinion that he needs to grow up.

 

[bmac4]

Oh, I am not defending Layún whatsoever - he should have been sent off. But this is not a binary question of whether some players are guilty of red card offenses against Neymar OR whether Neymar is a flopping, whiny little brat. BOTH are true. And I don't like to see either happen.

Eden Hazard gets kicked every bit as much as Neymar and while he is no stranger to the odd dive, he is far less demonstrative than Neymar. I stand by my opinion that he needs to grow up.

Don’t for a second disagree that he needs to grow up. I don’t think anyone can argue that. The issue being, I think the fouls in yesterday’s game were way more important then Neymar’s flopping.

 

[twietee]

Oh, I am not defending Layún whatsoever - he should have been sent off. But this is not a binary question of whether some players are guilty of red card offenses against Neymar OR whether Neymar is a flopping, whiny little brat. BOTH are true. And I don't like to see either happen.

Eden Hazard gets kicked every bit as much as Neymar and while he is no stranger to the odd dive, he is far less demonstrative than Neymar. I stand by my opinion that he needs to grow up.

As I said we're on the same page in general but looking at the mainstream discussions I too stand by my comment that the "they play dirty" aspect is more of a side-note and sometimes are even welcomed if we're dealing with underdogs or the so-called divas (WC14..).
Sad result (no excuse but part of the reality): many players start to flip flop after being fouled because otherwise the ref wouldn't even lift a finger.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

As I said we're on the same page in general but looking at the mainstream discussions I too stand by my comment that the "they play dirty" aspect is more of a side-note and sometimes are even welcomed if we're dealing with underdogs or the so-called divas (WC14..).
Sad result (no excuse but part of the reality): many players start to flip flop after being fouled because otherwise the ref wouldn't even lift a finger.

There has to be a balance between physicality and safety. I think that in some ways the game has become a bit biased in favor of the divers. On the other hand, we don't want to see players putting in reducers designed to deliberately injure their opponent, like they did in the 1970s.

But it's gotten to the point that occasionally players seem more interested in winning a foul than bothering to make a play, and that spoils the contest.

And yes, Neymar did sustain a major injury from that knee to the back - but we also know that nearly every time he (or Ronaldo, Pepe, Dirty Ramos, Suarez, Busquets, etc etc) rolls around clutches his face or shin he has not actually sustained an injury. He is feigning, exaggerating, pantomiming...in short, cheating.

If any of you watch rugby, you will never look at the rolling on the ground and face-clutching in football the same way again.

Another point...remember when poor Eduardo, or Aaron Ramsey, or Steve Zakuani suffered their horrible leg breaks? Did they roll around on the ground? Heck no, they went down like a sack of potatoes and stayed down, with a look of terror on their faces. Because they were actually badly injured. Even in Neymar's case, compare when he fractured a vertebra in his back in the 2014 WC to his more recent antics. Was he throwing himself about like a rag doll in 2014? Nope. Again, because he was really injured.

I don't want to belabor the point further, and I agree with you that dirty play should absolutely be frowned upon. But I do think it is fair for an inferior team to use a physical approach to disrupt a superior team's rhythm. It's a delicate balance, and frankly a subjective one. Referees have every right to see Neymar as the boy who cried wolf, and Neymar only has himself to blame for that.

 

[twietee]

There has to be a balance between physicality and safety. I think that in some ways the game has become a bit biased in favor of the divers. On the other hand, we don't want to see players putting in reducers designed to deliberately injure their opponent, like they did in the 1970s.

But it's gotten to the point that occasionally players seem more interested in winning a foul than bothering to make a play, and that spoils the contest.

And yes, Neymar did sustain a major injury from that knee to the back - but we also know that nearly every time he (or Ronaldo, Pepe, Dirty Ramos, Suarez, Busquets, etc etc) rolls around clutches his face or shin he has not actually sustained an injury. He is feigning, exaggerating, pantomiming...in short, cheating.

If any of you watch rugby, you will never look at the rolling on the ground and face-clutching in football the same way again.

Another point...remember when poor Eduardo, or Aaron Ramsey, or Steve Zakuani suffered their horrible leg breaks? Did they roll around on the ground? Heck no, they went down like a sack of potatoes and stayed down, with a look of terror on their faces. Because they were actually badly injured. Even in Neymar's case, compare when he fractured a vertebra in his back in the 2014 WC to his more recent antics. Was he throwing himself about like a rag doll in 2014? Nope. Again, because he was really injured.

I don't want to belabor the point further, and I agree with you that dirty play should absolutely be frowned upon. But I do think it is fair for an inferior team to use a physical approach to disrupt a superior team's rhythm. It's a delicate balance, and frankly a subjective one. Referees have every right to see Neymar as the boy who cried wolf, and Neymar only has himself to blame for that.

I did play rugby (for an extremely short time though..) and I am no one to cry out loud (or even lift a finger..) if I get fouled on the pitch but getting hit by one of those spikes (no idea how they are properly called - thingies on the bottom of the shoes) even rather lightly does hurt like a *****. And I do recognize that it wouldn't look half as bad on the telly. Same with getting slightly hit while being in full sprint (although to my experience it's just incredible cheap play and annoying af but not really dangerous). Sometimes I hit the ground and didn't even recognize being hit. You also have to take into account - sad but true - that at least 50% of the pro players on the pitch are playing with painkillers. Which they take before they started playing of course. So the drama takes its course when you get hit - your nerves don't really register - and you fake it because otherwise.. it's perverse.
[doublepost=1530631530][/doublepost]

Another point...remember when poor Eduardo, or Aaron Ramsey, or Steve Zakuani suffered their horrible leg breaks? Did they roll around on the ground? Heck no, they went down like a sack of potatoes and stayed down, with a look of terror on their faces. Because they were actually badly injured. Even in Neymar's case, compare when he fractured a vertebra in his back in the 2014 WC to his more recent antics. Was he throwing himself about like a rag doll in 2014? Nope. Again, because he was really injured.

With that I don't really agree. Taking aside rolling around like a fool - getting hit does hurt and in no way should be relativised by "real" injuries. If you run into a doorstep with your toe it does hurt in that moment but you'll still be able to walk in a couple moments later.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I did play rugby (for an extremely short time though..) and I am no one to cry out loud (or even lift a finger..) if I get fouled on the pitch but getting hit by one of those spikes (no idea how they are properly called - thingies on the bottom of the shoes) even rather lightly does hurt like a *****. And I do recognize that it wouldn't look half as bad on the telly. Same with getting slightly hit while being in full sprint (although to my experience it's just incredible cheap play and annoying af but not really dangerous). Sometimes I hit the ground and didn't even recognize being hit. You also have to take into account - sad but true - that at least 50% of the pro players on the pitch are playing with painkillers. Which they take before they started playing of course. So the drama takes its course when you get hit - your nerves don't really register - and you fake it because otherwise.. it's perverse.

Different sports have different cultures. Rugby doesn't reward diving the way football does. Machismo shows up in different ways in different sports - in Rugby it's stoicism - they still do sly little kicks and jabs, but players are less likely to react; in football it's more about preening, gesticulating, and wimpy fake head butting followed by diving. Both can be criticized in their own ways.

As for Cantona...it takes one to know one. He is another great example of an absolutely wonderful player who was also a complete so-and-so as a human being.

With that I don't really agree. Taking aside rolling around like a fool - getting hit does hurt and in no way should be relativised by "real" injuries. If you run into a doorstep with your toe it does hurt in that moment but you'll still be able to walk in a couple moments later.

Again, it's subjective. Does it hurt when Neymar gets fouled? I'm sure it does. And he picks up more than his fair share of cuts and bruises. I'm not suggesting he should never appear to be in pain.

On the other hand, does he need to roll four or five times? And hold his face when his toe hurts? Probably not. But it's a useful way to stop the match and put pressure on the ref - pressure that might pay off for Neymar later in the match at a crucial moment.

Speaking of which, I really wish FIFA followed rugby practice and banned all players apart from the captains from speaking to the ref. There is literally no downside to that rule, it will stop teams from surrounding the ref and pressuring them. The sin bin would also be a good idea - it gives refs a better option than simply yellow vs red.

[This Sweden - Switzerland match is quite dull...]

 

[twietee]

As for Cantona...it takes one to know one. He is another great example of an absolutely wonderful player who was also a complete so-and-so as a human being.

Yea, I deleted that part as I wasn't really familiar with that incident. But he did get some airing over here with his brief mockings of Neymar and some comments hoped that Neymar would be kicked by such a "real" man sometimes which is just a shocking line of thought and rubbed me a bit too much on the wrong side apparently. Anyway - I took that Cantona bit out as it is a different case.

 

[Lioness~]

[This Sweden - Switzerland match is quite dull...]

Not uncommon

The end had some nerve though.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Yea, I deleted that part as I wasn't really familiar with that incident. But he did get some airing over here with his brief mockings of Neymar and some comments hoped that Neymar would be kicked by such a "real" man sometimes which is just a shocking line of thought and rubbed me a bit too much on the wrong side apparently. Anyway - I took that Cantona bit out as it is a different case.

It does illustrate how much a strange form of machismo is still part of the sport. A lot of these guys still talk about being "a real man" or "having balls". Which is all nonsense. There is nothing laudable or 'manly' about sneakily - or openly - kicking another person in a football match.

 

[cube]

There is nothing laudable or 'manly' about sneakily - or openly - kicking another person in a football match.

The worst is fouling and then diving.