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The 2017-2018 Football Thread

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Lord Blackadder said:
Well, his father is deeply implicated, so there is a complicated relationship there. Most elite footballers are simply not ready for the consequences of fame and wealth...the examples are so obvious and numerous that they needn't be mentioned here. And for those less fortunate than Messi, what seems a fortune can vanish overnight and retirement from the game comes with the terrifying need for a poorly-educated, physically scarred athlete to shed his "friends" of the good times and pursue a real career. A fair few don't make it.

But I agree that, whatever the cause and however much Messi himself is or is not personally involved, he remains responsible and it is his legacy that will suffer for the actions of the people around him.

With that being said, the behavior of Barca and even Real in all this should not be ignored. These are not just people - these are big institutions behaving in a startlingly reckless fashion. They believe the normal rules simply do not apply to them and, thus far, they have gotten away with it. At some point I hope there will be a reckoning.
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Oh, agree absolutely; the father is deeply implicated, but I don't really buy that Messi is not.

And agree, too, on the culpability of clubs such as Barca and Real.

But as for the old "if only the Tsar knew about it, he should do something about it" - history has demonstrated all too clearly that - most of the time - the Tsar did know about it and had no intention of doing anything whatsoever about it.
 
Apple fanboy said:
Messi and his father should have amassed enough money by now to not worry about paying tax.
Just like Amazon, Google and Apple etc.
If they paid there way, I'm sure many would respect them for it.
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Indeed.

But respect goes both ways; they should respect what being a citizen is all about. Paying one's way means that public coffers can afford decent public services, and it also means that one is being a good role model, as a human being, a citizen and a footballer.

In the old days of this 'dispute' over respective popularity and skill as a footballer, I'll admit that I never really cared much for Ronaldo, - his evident narcissism was unpleasant to observe - but I am utterly disgusted with Messi.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
Indeed.

But respect goes both ways; they should respect what being a citizen is all about. Paying one's way means that public coffers can afford decent public services, and it also means that one is being a good role model, as a human being, a citizen and a footballer.

In the old days of this 'dispute' over respective popularity and skill as a footballer, I'll admit that I never really cared much for Ronaldo, - his evident narcissism was unpleasant to observe - but I am utterly disgusted with Messi.
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I get paid a reasonable wage. But I pay tax on it. I wouldn't dream of trying to avoid any of that tax.
Did you see Ronaldo checking to see if he had damaged his good looks at the weekend?

Muppet!
 
Liverpool being Liverpool again. All that good work to catch up to Chelsea and Man Utd down the drain against one of the worst teams in the league.

If I had to try and explain the loss to Swansea, it would be that the players mentally relaxed after the big win against City and simply couldn't maintain their focus against a limited but highly defensive and reasonably determined Swansea...they also hit the bar, so a slice of ill luck as well.

Still, that was an 18 game unbeaten run. Not bad.
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
Liverpool being Liverpool again. All that good work to catch up to Chelsea and Man Utd down the drain against one of the worst teams in the league.

If I had to try and explain the loss to Swansea, it would be that the players mentally relaxed after the big win against City and simply couldn't maintain their focus against a limited but highly defensive and reasonably determined Swansea...they also hit the bar, so a slice of ill luck as well.

Still, that was an 18 game unbeaten run. Not bad.
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I really could have done with Swansea loosing. So tight at the bottom. I couldn't call any of the bottom three this year.
 
Lord Blackadder said:
Every team from ninth down is technically in the "relegation battle" at this point.
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Very true. I'd settle for 17th, as would quite a few chairmen!

In reality I think we are okay. Swansea despite last night look to be in the biggest trouble. Stoke and Watford have been in free fall, but new managers might steady the ship.

I can't believe we've already lost 8 this season! That's nearly 50%! I wonder who else will get the chop.
 
Apple fanboy said:
Very true. I'd settle for 17th, as would quite a few chairmen!

In reality I think we are okay. Swansea despite last night look to be in the biggest trouble. Stoke and Watford have been in free fall, but new managers might steady the ship.

I can't believe we've already lost 8 this season! That's nearly 50%! I wonder who else will get the chop.
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Actually, @Apple fanboy, you have lost ten games already this season.

(Arsenal have lost six, a disgraceful statistic at this stage of the season).
 
Scepticalscribe said:
Well, I still like Mr Wenger, but I do wish he would overcome his aesthetic aversion to, and profound distaste for, the very idea of a robust defence.
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I was referring to the special one.
I think Wenger will go in the summer. The majority of fans have grown tired of him.
Selling your best players and finishing 5th or 6th is not good enough. Then every few years scraping in to the CL.
 
Apple fanboy said:
I was referring to the special one.
I think Wenger will go in the summer. The majority of fans have grown tired of him.
Selling your best players and finishing 5th or 6th is not good enough. Then every few years scraping in to the CL.
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Well, in fairness, last year was the first year in almost twenty years that he didn't qualify for the CL.

My issue - if issue it was - is not 'not qualifying' (although that is good for the coffers); rather, it is that - even in the really good years - Arsenal never really shone in the CL, and were always underwhelming and underperforming in that competition. Even at their best - and at their best, (The Invincibles) they were superb - they never did quite as well as they should have in the CL.

As for the fans, no more than United fans looking back at the Ferguson years with baffled awe and wonder, I think Wenger will be seen as an outstanding manager - and the best in Arsenal's history - in years to come. Do remember, that they won the FA Cup as recently as last year.

Personally, I'm in no hurry to see him go; however, I do wish he would address that brittleness, and accept that a decent defensive spine is no bad thing.

However, other teams have progressed - in terms of mindsets and outlook, and this is something that Arsenal would do well to think about a little.
 
It is almost expected that Arsenal will sell their best players to better teams.
The same can not be said of the two Manchester clubs or even Chelsea or Spurs, at least not as often.
That means you are always going to struggle.

I'm not saying he is a bad manager, just that you would not expect them to be a top four club this season. I've seen nothing to suggest that's going to change under the current leadership.
 
Apple fanboy said:
It is almost expected that Arsenal will sell their best players to better teams.
The same can not be said of the two Manchester clubs or even Chelsea or Spurs, at least not as often.
That means you are always going to struggle.

I'm not saying he is a bad manager, just that you would not expect them to be a top four club this season. I've seen nothing to suggest that's going to change under the current leadership.
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Yes, but they have been a top four team for twenty years - in fact, until this year - and, as recently as two years ago, finished second, and last year won the FA Cup.

Spurs will face serious offers for Kane come next summer, and Chelsea - despite the bottomless millions of their owner - are less consistent than they might have been.

I see his - Mr Wenger's - dislike of thinking about and planning for defence as a real issue; other than that, he has been brilliant, but I can see that what was once original and cutting-edge has long become commonplace and indeed has been well over-hauled by more modern thinking on a number of areas.

As for the two Manchesters: Pep Guardiola has cracked it this year - and good luck to him; meanwhile, the inevitable implosion will come at United - they haven't found their way since Ferguson retired - and The Special One will leave the usual trail of destruction and bitterness in his wake.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
...the inevitable implosion will come at United - they haven't found their way since Ferguson retired - and The Special One will leave the usual trail of destruction and bitterness in his wake.
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Man Utd look set to hand Mourinho a fat new contract. Largely meaningless, perhaps, in toady's game but the fact that the Glazers are doing it now still suggests certain amount of confidence in their manager. He has spent an astounding amount of their money while still relying quite substantially on players that date from the Ferguson and Moyes (ha!) era.
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
Man Utd look set to hand Mourinho a fat new contract. Largely meaningless, perhaps, in toady's game but the fact that the Glazers are doing it now still suggests certain amount of confidence in their manager. He has spent an astounding amount of their money while still relying quite substantially on players that date from the Ferguson and Moyes (ha!) era.
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Astonishing, agreed.

Going on his 'previous' form as manager - and that is what we can go on - this will end in tears.

He seems unable to accept that he is no longer the suave handsome urbane young Portuguese who burst onto the scene as a new type of continental manager almost two decades ago.

United won't catch City this year, and - unless Pep decides that other pastures are more interesting - I'm not sure that they will challenge them next year either.

And indeed, Sanchez's choice - money and lifestyle - with United - rather than a footballing legacy (with City) - is telling.
 
At the moment, Man Utd have such massive turnover that they can afford to flounder a bit in the post-Ferguson years. What they need to realize is that they will never have another Ferguson. Realistically, they will not be retaining managers past 3-5 seasons going forward. So in that sense you might argue that Mou is perfectly acceptable - as long as he wins something.

Given the stature of both the club and the manager, if Mou fails to win either a Premier League or Champions League title his tenure at the club cannot be seen as a success.
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
At the moment, Man Utd have such massive turnover that they can afford to flounder a bit in the post-Ferguson years. What they need to realize is that they will never have another Ferguson. Realistically, they will not be retaining managers past 3-5 seasons going forward. So in that sense you might argue that Mou is perfectly acceptable - as long as he wins something.

Given the stature of both the club and the manager, if Mou fails to win either a Premier League or Champions League title his tenure at the club cannot be seen as a success.
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He won't win the Premier League this year, - I think that Pep Guardiola has his measure, and I am not sure that Mourinho will win it next year - other managers will set about identifying deficiencies, improving their squads and thinking through stuff such as necessary tactics.

Agreed: He will need to win a serious trophy in order to be viewed as a success - and his success rate in recent years is a lot less pronounced that it had been earlier in his career.
 
CL or PL trophies count.
FA cups or League cups don't tbh. Not for the big clubs.

It's hard to say what will happen next year. If Real Madrid or Barcelona come a calling for Pep who knows? Same for their star players.
 
Apple fanboy said:
CL or PL trophies count.
FA cups or League cups don't tbh. Not for the big clubs.

It's hard to say what will happen next year. If Real Madrid or Barcelona come a calling for Pep who knows? Same for their star players.
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Hm. Manchester United would be pretty happy with a FA Cup. Mourinho will have to come up with some trophies before his usual three year self-destruct cycle begins to tick down.

Meanwhile, I don't see Pep in any immediate hurry - he has a point or two to make first, not least in that he will wish to make a name for himself at City - which means leaving a decent legacy - before he departs for fresher pastures.

Besides, while he doesn't have insane resources at his disposal - (witness the fact that - despite their wealth - City weren't prepared to pay the astronomical sums demanded by Sanchez), he does have decent ones to call upon.
 
I think Man U would have to settle for the FA Cup

They're certainly not going to win the league unless something drastic happens, and I can't see them winning the CL either

But then, it's Man U's board's fault for not spending enough...apparently
 
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