Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
Football, bloody hell. I feel like I've just aged ten years.

Finaly, a match that lives up to the hype. Incredible energy and skill from both sides. Klopp's "Heavy metal" football vs Pep's English-adapted Tiki Taka 2.0.

Liverpool have taken down City without Coutinho, without van Dijk - and with Karius between the sticks. Unbelievable. Oxlade-Chamberlain showed up big today as well.

Man City bossed possession, but Liverpool stole the ball repeatedly in key areas. I think this match demonstrates that "traditional' approaches to defending against City are not always the best way to deal with them. Liverpool forced them to react to the match, rather than allowing them to control the tempo. This approach pretty much gurantees that City will score goals - but it also creates the opportunity to put Pep's men under serious pressure, and in such circumstances the defense can come out looking very average.

Karius will be blamed for conceding Man City's first goal, but I don't think Mignolet would have necessarily saved that.

Meanwhile good game for Liverpool...even though they almost messed it up again.

The thing is, this was a classic Klopp performance - Mou wins matches 1-0, Klopp wins them 4-3. The result is exactly the same, but the latter strategy is much more exciting (and stressful) to watch. Nothing is more exhilarating than seeing the lightning speed with which Liverpool can force turnovers and turn them into scoring opportunities. But the counter-pressing style places huge demands on individual players, leading to errors and conceding goals. It is the inherent weakness in Klopp's approach - though I hasten to add it is not a fatal flaw. When Liverpool went 4-1 up I knew, after having watched them all season, that we would need every bit of that 3 goal lead if we were to win the match, and so it proved.

Few managers are willing to adopt such an intense, risky tactical approach against a Pep team - but Klopp has shown that the idea has merit, given the right squad.

Liverpool's problem is that they tend to close out matches looking shaky, and today was no exception. Man City looked sharp and focused late in the match and responded to going 4-1 down by closing out the game really strongly, putting Liverpool under pressure and nearly bringing the match level. It wasn't a question of physical energy - Liverpoool were running hard and frankly still outworking Man City right to the end - but more mental fatigue; the players were mentally exhausted and losing focus.

Anyway, that is how you do it, Jose....
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
This match did highlight Liverpool's lack of a top quality keeper though. Not sure why Klopp selected Karius, though most Liverpool fans agree his kicking and distribution are better than Mignolet's. At this point I see them as more or less interchangeable, and in neither case good enough.

With van Dijk on board and Keita on the way, Liverpool really don't have the need to do a squad overhaul in the summer - but they absolutely need a new goalkeeper. Mignolet, whose value is higher, should be sold, and a new No 1 brought in ahead of Karius.

EDIT: Oh, and I am embarrassed that Liverpool fans still boo Sterling. They are free to do it if they want, but I consider it unsportsmanlike after all this time. It's not like he's a nasty so-and-so like John Terry or Joey Barton. Best to leave the kid alone.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,197
52,831
Behind the Lens, UK
There will be some celebration in Liverpool tonight for sure.
And half of Manchester!
[doublepost=1515955534][/doublepost]
I doubt that Arsenal (or Mr Wenger) had much of a choice in the matter, to be honest.






I wouldn't quite write off a top four place yet (well, fourth, to be honest, is the best we can hope for at this stage), but will concede that it is looking a lot less likely and that we could do with - or will need - a generous portion of luck in order to achieve that elusive fourth spot.
Agreed about choice.

But I think 5th or 6th for you this term. Unless you buy someone, but I've not heard any rumours.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,928
46,396
In a coffee shop.
And half of Manchester!
[doublepost=1515955534][/doublepost]
Agreed about choice.

But I think 5th or 6th for you this term. Unless you buy someone, but I've not heard any rumours.

Some good, solid, skilful, defenders might be a worthwhile investment.......but, given Mr Wenger's preferences - famously, he once remarked that if he could field a team with one defender, he would - I am not holding out too much hope.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,197
52,831
Behind the Lens, UK
Some good, solid, skilful, defenders might be a worthwhile investment.......but, given Mr Wenger's preferences - famously, he once remarked that if he could field a team with one defender, he would - I am not holding out too much hope.
I too wouldn't mind a defender or two. Although Collins played well yesterday, between him and Reid they miss a few games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,928
46,396
In a coffee shop.
Stunning performance by Liverpool. But, still: Manchester City have been superb, unbeaten since April (until today) and I will be astounded if Pep doesn't sit down and think - as in critically analyse sort of thinking - and then proceed to learn from today.

Arsenal's problems - that brittle defence - and brittle confidence - and their tendency to collapse gutlessly and spinelessly - are nothing new, unfortunately. We know the problems, we just haven't seriously addressed them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Alphazoid

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2014
966
814
The thing is, this was a classic Klopp performance - Mou wins matches 1-0, Klopp wins them 4-3. The result is exactly the same, but the latter strategy is much more exciting (and stressful) to watch. Nothing is more exhilarating than seeing the lightning speed with which Liverpool can force turnovers and turn them into scoring opportunities. But the counter-pressing style places huge demands on individual players, leading to errors and conceding goals. It is the inherent weakness in Klopp's approach - though I hasten to add it is not a fatal flaw. When Liverpool went 4-1 up I knew, after having watched them all season, that we would need every bit of that 3 goal lead if we were to win the match, and so it proved.

Few managers are willing to adopt such an intense, risky tactical approach against a Pep team - but Klopp has shown that the idea has merit, given the right squad.

Liverpool's problem is that they tend to close out matches looking shaky, and today was no exception. Man City looked sharp and focused late in the match and responded to going 4-1 down by closing out the game really strongly, putting Liverpool under pressure and nearly bringing the match level. It wasn't a question of physical energy - Liverpoool were running hard and frankly still outworking Man City right to the end - but more mental fatigue; the players were mentally exhausted and losing focus.

Anyway, that is how you do it, Jose....

Its too risky...especially against Europe's elite. Its entertaining but it requires you to score early and outscore your opponents. No one needs to play like Mou...thats bad for football. But you can play like Fergie, Conte, Madrid, Barca etc. Still entertaining but solid.

Game management is vital at the top level, its what gets you trophies.

Being 2-0 up and conceding 3 goals against Arsenal, then today 4-1 up and almost drawing. Not the stuff of champions.

But like you said Liverpool deserved to win for effort and graft but City showed why they're champions elect
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
But you can play like Fergie, Conte, Madrid, Barca etc. Still entertaining but solid.

Madrid and Barca are anything but solid - they terrify opponents with their attack but their defending is often hilariously bad - watch any El Classico to see what I mean. The reason they seem solid is that they so rarely have to defend.

The only difference in quality between Liverpool and those other teams is the amount of money spent and thus the average individual quality of the players. Liverpool are not quite in that financial stratosphere and thus the results aren't quite as good.

I'm not suggesting that Klopp doesn't make mistakes, and perhaps the trouble holding leads stems from a mix between the quality of the squad and Klopp's game management, but I don't think his approach is that much riskier than Pep's.

All of these attacking sides have evolved wingbacks so far towards being attackers that they are becoming worse and worse defenders. Defense, for such teams, is keeping the ball away from the opponent and winning it back quickly - not building an impenetrable wall in your own final third.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Alphazoid

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2014
966
814
Contemporary Barca and Madrid maybe so. But Pique/Mascherano and Ramos/Pepe are/were solid at the back. They may not be athletico or italian league maestros like Maldini but at the very least superior to what the EPL has to offer. Exceptions being Ferdinand/Vidic.

Maybe i'm old fashion but i like a good solid defensive showing...you dont need to kill games off and park the bus but get the ball, put in last ditch tackles and walk away with a clean sheet. And that seems to be dying with every contemporary game.
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off

Truly bizarre.
[doublepost=1515982019][/doublepost]
Contemporary Barca and Madrid maybe so. But Pique/Mascherano and Ramos/Pepe are/were solid at the back. They may not be athletico or italian league maestros like Maldini but at the very least superior to what the EPL has to offer. Exceptions being Ferdinand/Vidic.

Maybe i'm old fashion but i like a good solid defensive showing...you dont need to kill games off and park the bus but get the ball, put in last ditch tackles and walk away with a clean sheet. And that seems to be dying with every contemporary game.

I understand what you mean, but the days of players having a single job to do are rapidly passing away, at least at the elite level. Every outfield player is now expected to be able to work with the ball at his feet, to dribble and to pass rather than hoof it vaguely upfield. The key to developing a more fearsome attack is to convert more players into attackers. This is why the concept of a four-man defense is increasingly scarce at elite levels. "Wingers" are really inside forwards these days, and fullbacks are used to attack up the wings. It's harder to break a team down into attacking and defensive sub-units, and the "back four" in a 4-3-3 (for example) exists more on paper than in reality.

In some ways, the latest in tactics harkens back to the ancient 2-3-5 formation that was the default prior to the invention of tactical formations as we know them in the modern sense. The difference is that today's hyperathletic players are marshaled in such a way that 5 attackers are available when needed without leaving the defenders unaided when forced to defend (and the defenders are much less restricted in their movements). What has changed is that each individual player is capable of running longer and faster than ever before, and thus takes on more responsibilities.
 

pachyderm

macrumors G3
Jan 12, 2008
9,953
4,871
Smyrna, TN
No offense @Lord Blackadder but I don't know why people even bother talking about teams like Barca, Madrid, etc etc.

It's not real football.

It's make believe FIFA 18 video game stuff.

It's literally fantasy football.

They are both always good, they win all the time, they always have the best players.

Any problem they have they throw money at.

That's not real football.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,928
46,396
In a coffee shop.
Two stories - each emblematic, in a way, of their respective eras.

Firstly, the current one - which is a bleak reflection of values: It looks as though our Chilean maestro - Mr Sanchez - will be on his way to Manchester United, rather than work under Pep Guardiola at City as part of a genuinely exciting team.

So much for the argument about being fuelled a passionate desire for trophies; City - who were willing to pay up to £60 million last summer to pull off this signing - and who are genuinely wealthy - have made clear that they are of the view that the player's escalating demands bordered on the astronomical.

And, secondly, the death of Cyrille Regis has just been reported; trail-blazer, superb player, incredible role model, and an absolute gentleman.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,197
52,831
Behind the Lens, UK
Two stories - each emblematic, in a way, of their respective eras.

Firstly, the current one - which is a bleak reflection of values: It looks as though our Chilean maestro - Mr Sanchez - will be on his way to Manchester United, rather than work under Pep Guardiola at City as part of a genuinely exciting team.

So much for the argument about being fuelled a passionate desire for trophies; City - who were willing to pay up to £60 million last summer to pull off this signing - and who are genuinely wealthy - have made clear that they are of the view that the player's escalating demands bordered on the astronomical.

And, secondly, the death of Cyrille Regis has just been reported; trail-blazer, superb player, incredible role model, and an absolute gentleman.
I still think he will win more trophies at Man U than at Arsenal! But yes I'm sure the extra reported £60k a week helped with his decision making!

Yes sad to hear about Cyrille Regis. Only 59. No age really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,928
46,396
In a coffee shop.
I still think he will win more trophies at Man U than at Arsenal! But yes I'm sure the extra reported £60k a week helped with his decision making!

Yes sad to hear about Cyrille Regis. Only 59. No age really.

The guy is already super wealthy, this is about greed not ambition; and no - I don't expect him to win that many trophies with Manchester United precisely because Mr Mourinho will go into meltdown mode at some stage leaving the usual devastation and destruction in his wake.

City would have offered an excellent package, thrilling football of a classy confident team at their peak, trophies - last night's result notwithstanding, I cannot see them not winning the Premiership which Sanchez never won with Arsenal - and a serious crack at Champion's League competition.

To my mind, Sanchez has gone for the playboy option; yes, the money is one thing, but where is his professional ambition? He was already on stunning money, and was going to be handsomely remunerated at City (a team, unlike United, that are not seen as a financial asset there to be permanently gutted as appears to be the Glazier model).

Re Cyrille Regis, the warmth and respect of the tributes is immensely instructive; a terrific player and a great guy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Alphazoid

macrumors 6502a
Dec 5, 2014
966
814
Im just not sure where Sanchez will play? will he displace Lukaku? Martial? Mata? Herrera? Mkhi? and what about Rashford is that the end of the line for him now...relegated to cup football. If Sanchez goes to Utd i'd be kinda disappointed cos then its about money not football which is contrary to what was being purported.

if he joined City he could've gotten an EPL medal in 5-6mths.

Even Rio Ferdinand admits United are behind and he should join City.
 
Last edited:

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,928
46,396
In a coffee shop.
Im just not sure where Sanchez will play? will he displace Lukaku? Martial? Mata? Herrera? Mkhi? and what about Rashford is that the end of the line for him now...relegated to cup football. If Sanchez goes to Utd i'd be kinda disappointed cos then its about money not football which is contrary to what was being purported.

if he joined City he could've gotten an EPL medal in 5-6mths.

Even Rio Ferdinand admits United are behind and he should join City.

I couldn't agree more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

JamesMike

macrumors 603
Nov 3, 2014
6,473
6,102
Oregon
Hopefully Man U can get a strong win today.
[doublepost=1516042929][/doublepost]I see Lambert has been appointed as Stokes new manager.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
55,197
52,831
Behind the Lens, UK
Hopefully Man U can get a strong win today.
[doublepost=1516042929][/doublepost]I see Lambert has been appointed as Stokes new manager.
Pretty convincing win for United against a sorry Stoke. I think Lambert has taken on a massive job!

I now see Chelsea have thrown their hat in the ring regarding Sanchez. Probably keeping half a dozen journalists employed this month! It's the big story of the moment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesMike

Centaurr

macrumors 65816
Feb 9, 2015
1,127
518
Florida
***Breaking Club News***

Barcelona just signed Colombian international Yerry Mina (defender) from brazilian club Palmeiras.
Fun fact:: he will be the tallest player in barcelona standing at 6'5"
 

Fizzoid

macrumors 68020
Jul 11, 2008
2,140
154
UK
Im just not sure where Sanchez will play? will he displace Lukaku? Martial? Mata? Herrera? Mkhi? and what about Rashford is that the end of the line for him now...relegated to cup football. If Sanchez goes to Utd i'd be kinda disappointed cos then its about money not football which is contrary to what was being purported.

if he joined City he could've gotten an EPL medal in 5-6mths.

Even Rio Ferdinand admits United are behind and he should join City.

I couldn't agree more.

I think he's more likely to get game time at Man U than he is City

Mkhi has been more miss than hit, and there was talk of him going the other way in a Sanchez deal. Martial can also be quite inconsistant

As for City, who's he going to replace? Silva, De Bruyne, Aguero, Jesus, Sirling, Mane?
 

pachyderm

macrumors G3
Jan 12, 2008
9,953
4,871
Smyrna, TN
I think he's more likely to get game time at Man U than he is City

Mkhi has been more miss than hit, and there was talk of him going the other way in a Sanchez deal. Martial can also be quite inconsistant

As for City, who's he going to replace? Silva, De Bruyne, Aguero, Jesus, Sirling, Mane?

sports ticker on espn last night said that CR7 wants to go back to Man U...
 

Fizzoid

macrumors 68020
Jul 11, 2008
2,140
154
UK
Yeah, he's been linked with Man U since the last tax scandal sometime last year and it's doing the rounds again during this transfer window

Even with all their money, can they afford him?
 
  • Like
Reactions: pachyderm
Status
Not open for further replies.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.