What do you mean? This year? I don’t think if Liverpool won the EPL this year, that makes Klopp even or better. His resume still doesn’t measure up.
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The 2018-2019 Football Thread
- Thread starter Lord Blackadder
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What do you mean? This year? I don’t think if Liverpool won the EPL this year, that makes Klopp even or better. His resume still doesn’t measure up.
I said I beg to differ.
Kindly accept that.
If memory serves, Liverpool - with a team that still hadn't been able to address some serious shortcomings (not least in goal, though that has subsequently been addressed), managed to reach the Champions League final earlier this year.
That is no mean achievement, and I expect Liverpool (and yes, Spurs) - as long as they are not tormented by injury problems - to mount a serious challenge to Manchester City - and make a genuine contest of the Premiership this season.
Resumé is not what sways me, - or, rather, resumé alone - but rather, potential, character, strategy and vision; good grief, Mourinho's resumé is excellent, - few better - yet I doubt he could galvanise or motivate or craft or coach any team to contest for any serious title this coming season.
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Wait accept what? I am not arguing that we see things differently. I am simply making my argument why I think Klopp is 3rd from the top. I accept that you don’t, but I am simply giving reason why. I haven’t seen anything Klopp has done to prove other wise. Winning the league this year doesn’t change that. Not that I believe he can.
I still think Man City could run away with it. Liverpool have yet to face a top six team, though Klopp's record in those matchups remains very good. With KDB out, the squad depth will be tested, and expectations are very high. Pep will also be under special pressure to do something in Europe.
But the big news has to be Spurs's thrashing of Man Utd. Its a huge win for Spurs, followed by the all-too-predictable Mourinho tantrum. Third Season Mourinho! Then again, if we are judging managers purely on what they have won in England, he is the best of the group by miles, and we should be agreeing with his obnoxious demands for "respect, respect, respect".
This, of course, is why judging managers purely by what they have won is a ridiculously oversimplified way of looking at things...only spoiled, glory-hunter fans think that way. By that logic, if Real Madrid want to win the Champions League they should have considered hiring Avram Grant or Roberto Di Matteo rather than this turncoat Lopetegui....
...but I digress. You can see the talent at Man Utd, they should clearly be doing better given the money they have spent, and I think you can place most of the blame on Mourinho, with some reserved for Woodward. While the Glazers are parasites, you can't say the club have been stingy with their transfer budget...and yet they are less than the sum of their parts at this point.
It's only been three games, but United's start to the season has been disastrous and you just know that the big Mourinho meltdown moment is coming unless they suddenly string together a bunch of wins.
But the big news has to be Spurs's thrashing of Man Utd. Its a huge win for Spurs, followed by the all-too-predictable Mourinho tantrum. Third Season Mourinho! Then again, if we are judging managers purely on what they have won in England, he is the best of the group by miles, and we should be agreeing with his obnoxious demands for "respect, respect, respect".
This, of course, is why judging managers purely by what they have won is a ridiculously oversimplified way of looking at things...only spoiled, glory-hunter fans think that way. By that logic, if Real Madrid want to win the Champions League they should have considered hiring Avram Grant or Roberto Di Matteo rather than this turncoat Lopetegui....
...but I digress. You can see the talent at Man Utd, they should clearly be doing better given the money they have spent, and I think you can place most of the blame on Mourinho, with some reserved for Woodward. While the Glazers are parasites, you can't say the club have been stingy with their transfer budget...and yet they are less than the sum of their parts at this point.
It's only been three games, but United's start to the season has been disastrous and you just know that the big Mourinho meltdown moment is coming unless they suddenly string together a bunch of wins.
Actually, I think the big Mourinho meltdown is well on the way.
It is striking that for all of his trophies (respect, respect, respect - that was an extraordinary outburst) he has failed to create a team - and team spirit and team ethos - out of the stupendous talent at his disposal at Manchester United, - the team is anything but united - and equally striking that he has failed - or is unable to - to nurture - or cultivate - or get the best from the players who play in his teams and are on his squad as individuals, let alone as members of a team.
He was a good manager, - in terms of delivering results and trophies - but that was the best part of a decade ago; what defines a good manager has changed, and Klopp, Guardiola and Pochettino have all crafted teams who play to a vision or blueprint they each have developed with the respective teams they coach and lead.
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If you are going to take a shot at me, how about actually quoting me? Please tell as you put me “spoiled, glory-hunter fan” what makes a great manager? How do you see Pep’s success? I don’t expect you to answer, but you’re an ******* who just makes statements like this instead of actually engaging in a conversation.
That is a key sentence, and it is a damning indictment of Mourinho and his style of management.
I just wanted to say, I thought we were having a good discussion. My apologies if I came across rude. I thought I was simply arguing my points as to why I thought Pep was a better manager. Again completely agree that it’s close and they are both great managers. I do enjoy discussing this kind of thing, and hearing reasonable opinions from the other side. Hope that helps. Just wanted to make my intentions clear.
I'm a big critic of Mourinho, but I think it is fair to say that since his emergence with Porto he has actually been a great fit for the modern game, which has become increasingly short-termist.
Fans and pundits wax lyrical about dynasties and long-term managers creating stability and giving a club a strong identity...but let's be realistic here. The owners, club suits, lawyers, agents, and money-men all work in the opposite direction. They want to engineer success NOW, they don't care that the club is XXX years old and they've played at the same ground for XXX years and played XXX style for XX years. They want trophies, big-name players, corporate sponsorship tie-ins, glass tunnels where wealthy people can watch the players stand around waiting to get on the pitch. 'Style and flair' is provided by the presence of expensive players with weird hairdos, not an exciting tactical approach (except at the very , very top of the financial food chain, where a tiny group of clubs can just about manage both). For most teams, the surest way to advance is not flair, but some sort of Big Sam / Pulis football.
Mourinho brings you trophies in one to two seasons, guaranteed. Ugly football most of the time too, but trophies guaranteed. The fact that he detonates in year three is an irrelevance since he has achieved what he was hired to do. With Man Utd this is all still technically true - though instead of the Champions league and league titles he has won the Europa League and League Cup. Maybe it's the sign that Mourinho is declining - maybe he and Man Utd are just a bad fit. Where Man Utd have erred, however, is in their apparent intention to convert Mourinho into a long-term manager. It won't work.
And, speaking as a fan of a club that has won very little in the last 20 years, there may come a time in the not-too-distant future when Man Utd fans will consider winning the Europa League and league cup to be an excellent season's haul...
Well, Louis van Gaal was fired by Manchester United almost immediately after he had won the FA Cup with them; I'd argue that Mourinho has not achieved an awful lot more than that, and that with an - on paper and on the balance sheet - potentially an excellent (not to mention) expensive team.
It is not just short-termism , though Mourinho tends to be the short term manager par excellence. It is that as a short term manager in Manchester United he is not delivering the goods, and his character flaws mean that he will never be able to deliver the goods.
It is that Mourinho has failed to craft a team from the players he has, failed to get the best - individually - from his players, and failed to give them an identity as a team; in each of these respects, he differs from his three key rivals.
And yes, I do think that Mourinho is declining; he genuinely was an excellent (if unpleasant) manager for the first ten to twelve years of this century, but I think that the tool kit and skills-set of what makes an excellent manager has changed since then, and Mourinho has not kept pace with developments.
In the interest of balance, I think it also has to be said that managers can also be used to whitewash a club's image or shield an owner from criticism. Pep at Man City is a classic example. While Pep is by all accounts a good man and an excellent manager who produces lovely football, the club he works for is the tool of a despotic regime with a human rights record so awful we'd all just rather pretend it's not real. Which is precisely what Pep helps us to do.
Ah, yes.
Fair comment.
No argument there, about the distinction between an admirable and ethical manager who enables and facilitate an environment for elegant and exquisite good football, (and the positive brand image for the club this gives rise to) and the repellant owners with tier deplorable human rights record and despotic regime.
Somewhat similar concerns could be raised about the background of the wealth of the unpleasant and unsavoury individual who owns Chelsea, for example, and indeed, I daresay that the backgrounds of the owners & ownership of many clubs could well repay further close scrutiny.
But many of the clubs in the Premiership (and elsewhere) have sold their souls along with the proverbial family silver quite some time ago, and little by way of dissent (least of all by many fans of an ambitious disposition) was heard.
Personally, for much the reasons you have outlined, I would have rather liked to have seen a match - where the outcome mattered - take place between PSG and Manchester City.
Big night for us against Wimbledon. We really need a win. If we lose, they will really start turning up the heat on Pelagrini. Far to early for drastic decisions like that for me.
And, as matters stand, Wimbledon lead West Ham by a goal to nil.
However, I agree that it is far too early to demand the head of Pellegrini; West Ham have gone through a brace of managers, let him attempt some sort of system and the time to train, persuade and convince his players to follow it.
It is incredible to me how many goals (9) have already been scored within the first ten minutes of this round of cup matches.
Thanks for that!
Part of our issue is such a large influx of players and a new manager, will all take time to bed in. I mean without being crass do they even all speak the same language yet?
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And not all the way you'd expect!
Wimbledon are down to ten men as McDonald received a red card for a foul on Snodgrass.
West Ham should be able to exert some pressure now.
West Ham should be able to exert some pressure now.
As you have observed, with all of the new players, he needs time to be able to bed a system in and get the players comfortable with playing together.
Moreover, I cannot see what good it would be to sack him just now: How many managers have West Ham eaten their way through over the past few years? They need some sort of certainty, and consistency. Sacking managers endlessly is hardly the way to set about attempting to achieve this.
Finally one of our 22 shots has gone in!
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Oh agree. Swapping and changing isn't the way forward. It certainly isn't the (traditional) West Ham way.
I don’t see how they could sack him yet. Seriously it’s only been a couple of weeks. Tons of new players and manager. Give it some time and let everyone get use to each other.
Yes, at the moment, one all between West Ham and Wimbledon.
The Hammers will be happy with a point, and it will give Pellegrini some breathing space.
I don't think they give points in cup games!
[doublepost=1535488433][/doublepost]Finally in front!
I don't think they give points in cup games!
[doublepost=1535488433][/doublepost]Finally in front!
Oops.
Forgot that it is that cup the name of which has changed at least a dozen times - the one that used to go by the name of the League Cup many years ago, before countless reincarnations.
Still, any positive performance will be welcomed and the team can try to build on that.